Talking Point: Can legal ROM discussion work? |
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 Jun 21 2007, 21:41
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#21
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 SpinDoctorBlow  Group: Posters Posts: 2,765 Joined: 25th February 2003 From: Edinburgh, UK Member No.: 3,060  |
I am a bit confused. I don't understand how the downloading/discussion of cooked ROMs can be so open at one forum, but so 'covert' in others? If one forum is openly doing this then what's the point of another forum jumping on the bandwagon but enforcing a bunch of rules for discussion.
Having just flashed my phone with the 'black' ROM I can safely say it's the best thing I have ever done to my M3100. The fact that I can go to another forum where I don't have to mind my p's & q's when discussing this, makes it seem a bit pointless to then also have an area of modaco where I would have to watch very closely what I was saying. My opinion is that if it can be discussed then great ... it should be discussed, openly. If not then what's the point? -------------------- "... time is an illusion ... lunchtime doubly so ..."
http://monosapiens.9f.com |
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Jun 21 2007, 21:53
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#22
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 The Main Man Group: Admin Team Posts: 21,241 Joined: 6th November 2002 From: Norwich, UK Member No.: 1 Device(s): HTC Touch HD |
Nut not everyone wants to downoad and flash a random ROM on their device - some, like myself, want to tweak and get the best out of the shipping ROMs... perhaps in a more 'MoDaCo' environment than elsewhere?
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Jun 22 2007, 10:21
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#23
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SpinDoctorBlow Group: Posters Posts: 2,765 Joined: 25th February 2003 From: Edinburgh, UK Member No.: 3,060 |
I just don't see the difference. Surely tweaking a shipped ROM just a little bit or however you want to put it, is just the same as giving a ROM a full overhaul? Is it just the posting & downloading of these ROMs that is illegal? If it is illegal then how can anyone get away with it? If it's not, or if it's a grey area, then what's the problem discussing it openly?
I just feel like it would be a fruitless gesture to have discussion threads where people were constantly worried about breaching forum rules, and talking around subjects that everyone knows rightly are slightly controversial. To be honest my opinion is either embrace the new ROM culture in all it's glorious copyright infringement, or don't. -------------------- "... time is an illusion ... lunchtime doubly so ..."
http://monosapiens.9f.com |
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Jun 22 2007, 10:41
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#24
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The Main Man Group: Admin Team Posts: 21,241 Joined: 6th November 2002 From: Norwich, UK Member No.: 1 Device(s): HTC Touch HD |
QUOTE I just don't see the difference. Surely tweaking a shipped ROM just a little bit or however you want to put it, is just the same as giving a ROM a full overhaul? No no no... putting some of my favourite applications MYSELF into my shipping ROM is a million miles away from downloading a cooked ROM with a completely different OS version stuffed with various apps that may or may not be legal. (IMHO YMMV etc. etc.) QUOTE Is it just the posting & downloading of these ROMs that is illegal? If it is illegal then how can anyone get away with it? If it's not, or if it's a grey area, then what's the problem discussing it openly? Come on, just because people 'get away with it' it doesn't mean it's legal! QUOTE I just feel like it would be a fruitless gesture to have discussion threads where people were constantly worried about breaching forum rules, and talking around subjects that everyone knows rightly are slightly controversial. To be honest my opinion is either embrace the new ROM culture in all it's glorious copyright infringement, or don't. Well that's the kind of debate this post was supposed to ignite  I am of the opinion that there are ROM editing / cooking etc. topics that probably do have a place on MoDaCo, and those that don't.Things like this for example - http://www.modaco.com/Pauland39s-Guide-to-...ze-t256280.html - are quite different from many topics about ROM editing, but it IS still ROM editing. P -------------------- |
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Jun 22 2007, 13:43
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#25
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 Addict  Group: MoDaCo Plus Posts: 572 Joined: 20th February 2003 Member No.: 2,937 Device(s): O2 Graphite, HTC s730 |
This post too MoDaCo Dude Splash/Boot Screen is quite different from many topics about ROM editing, but it IS still ROM editing.
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Jun 22 2007, 14:31
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#26
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 Blackjack'd Group: Moderator Team Posts: 4,205 Joined: 18th April 2003 From: Mt Laurel, NJ USA Member No.: 4,796 Device(s): Motorola Q9h/iPhone |
Here are my thoughts:
- It is not illegal to change modify and cook your own ROM. It's your phone...do with it what you want. - It should be clearly noted that this behavior is not for everyone, will void warranties, and possibly break your phone. Should also be noted that Modaco is not responsible for problems that may occour. - It's not illegal to describe HOW to do it...information is free. - It should be fine for Modaco to publish this info, how to's as well as free tools. - It should be fine for Modaco to POINT to ROMs and ROM modifications, BUT there are too many that include software that one would need to purchase. THAT is against Modaco policy and thus should be discouraged. - Most ROMs also include copywritten software from manufacturers that is purchased by/written by them to include on THEIR phones or specific phones. Putting an HTC Rom on a Samsung for example would not be cool from HTCs perspective. I believe that... - Teaching about ROM customization is great. - Discussing and providing the tools to do so is great. - Customizing your own ROM is fine...as long as the individual is soley responsible. - Discussing it on the forums is great. - Providing modified ROMs for direct download is not good...especially if they include third-party software. - FORMALLY linking to externally hosted ROMs would ordinarilly be okay IMO...but will get you into trouble in the end (possibly legally). Best to be ambiguous about that. Let users do so, but without MoDaCo or it's agents providing those links personally. And following a set of Rules...No ROMs with stolen software. (That last point is still fuzzy for me...probably the most important and hardest to verify) /me thinks on the topic more. --------------------  |
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Jun 22 2007, 14:35
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#27
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 Hardcore Group: Posters Posts: 1,498 Joined: 27th February 2006 From: Milton Keynes UK Member No.: 174,863 Device(s): Kaiser, Touch, WM6 G4 Wizard |
I think it's a logical step for MoDaCo to take
Everyone will still visit XDA Devs for 'questionable' stuff, but I am of the opinion MoDaCo would be held back by not discussing, in some form, a bit of ROM tweaking. As long as it stays on the right side of legality and doesn't end up with each thread starting with the words CAUTION, THIS CAN KILL YOUR DEVICE!! what's the harm? Not that I'm saying there's been anything wrong with this site up til now, but I do think It would improve MoDaCo for the better -------------------- |
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Jun 22 2007, 15:06
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#28
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 Peanut Brain Group: MoDaCo Plus Posts: 6,409 Joined: 10th September 2004 From: Surrey, England Member No.: 56,072 Device(s): iPhone 8Gb. Athena, C600 |
I am still of the opinion thet it should all be kept over at xda as there are lots of experts there and you will quickly get Qs about can this be done for my device and about illegal stuff, I don't think we have enough expertese on the subject - apart from Paul, all the others woould rather be allowed to discuss things freely.
Rather like I think Mobiholics was straying from what Modaco does best I think this is going where others can do better. Personally I think Modaco should concentrate on what it does best and improve it's core services rather than diversify. Just my oppinion, of course. -------------------- He who asks a question looks foolish for 5 minutes. He who doesn't ask a question remains foolish forever.
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Jun 22 2007, 15:14
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#29
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Blackjack'd Group: Moderator Team Posts: 4,205 Joined: 18th April 2003 From: Mt Laurel, NJ USA Member No.: 4,796 Device(s): Motorola Q9h/iPhone |
Diversify???!!
It's all the same topic...best use of our WM Phones. XDA has a more knowledgable userbase on the subject...but try to get help there if you're a noob on ROMs and upgrading. They either dont answer you or scream at you. If XDA could do it...Modaco could do it better. Everyone from XDA for the most part is a modaco member too and probably started here. They only exist because Modaco has rules. Rules that protect the other interests of Modaco. -------------------- |
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Jun 22 2007, 15:21
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#30
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 Moderately moderating in moderation... Group: Moderator Team Posts: 1,336 Joined: 9th May 2005 From: Oadby, Leicester, UK Member No.: 128,356 Device(s): Vario II, 8310, C600, C550 |
QUOTE(encece @ Jun 22 2007, 15:31)  Here are my thoughts: - It is not illegal to change modify and cook your own ROM. It's your phone...do with it what you want. - It should be clearly noted that this behavior is not for everyone, will void warranties, and possibly break your phone. Should also be noted that Modaco is not responsible for problems that may occour. - It's not illegal to describe HOW to do it...information is free. - It should be fine for Modaco to publish this info, how to's as well as free tools. - It should be fine for Modaco to POINT to ROMs and ROM modifications, BUT there are too many that include software that one would need to purchase. THAT is against Modaco policy and thus should be discouraged. - Most ROMs also include copywritten software from manufacturers that is purchased by/written by them to include on THEIR phones or specific phones. Putting an HTC Rom on a Samsung for example would not be cool from HTCs perspective. I believe that... - Teaching about ROM customization is great. - Discussing and providing the tools to do so is great. - Customizing your own ROM is fine...as long as the individual is soley responsible. - Discussing it on the forums is great. - Providing modified ROMs for direct download is not good...especially if they include third-party software. - FORMALLY linking to externally hosted ROMs would ordinarilly be okay IMO...but will get you into trouble in the end (possibly legally). Best to be ambiguous about that. Let users do so, but without MoDaCo or it's agents providing those links personally. And following a set of Rules...No ROMs with stolen software. (That last point is still fuzzy for me...probably the most important and hardest to verify) /me thinks on the topic more. Well said encece. Your second to last point is where Paul and his PPF idea comes in. Linking to ROM's hosted on the official carriers/manufacturers website would be ok as they have made the ROM freely available themselves. Also it's near enough IMPOSSIBLE to put a HTC ROM onto a Samsung  HTC have one way of doing ROM Upgrades, Samsung have a completely different way of doing it.Phil -------------------- |
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Jun 22 2007, 15:27
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#31
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Blackjack'd Group: Moderator Team Posts: 4,205 Joined: 18th April 2003 From: Mt Laurel, NJ USA Member No.: 4,796 Device(s): Motorola Q9h/iPhone |
That was a bad example...more like putting an Orange Rom on a comparable HTC non-orange device.
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Jun 22 2007, 15:43
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#32
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Moderately moderating in moderation... Group: Moderator Team Posts: 1,336 Joined: 9th May 2005 From: Oadby, Leicester, UK Member No.: 128,356 Device(s): Vario II, 8310, C600, C550 |
QUOTE(encece @ Jun 22 2007, 16:27) That was a bad example...more like putting an Orange Rom on a comparable HTC non-orange device. Ahhh, got your point now But surely if orange make the ROM freely available on their website (ala the M3100 ROM), and you take a backup of your HTC ROM, then there won't be any problems?Phil -------------------- |
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Jun 22 2007, 15:47
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#33
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Blackjack'd Group: Moderator Team Posts: 4,205 Joined: 18th April 2003 From: Mt Laurel, NJ USA Member No.: 4,796 Device(s): Motorola Q9h/iPhone |
Well to that point...Orange would be providing their ROM only for THEIR customers. They wouldnt want it distributed to the owners of an imate or dopod version of the same phone. Providing that ROM and/or links to it, to non-Orange customers would be illegal. That's the idea I was trying to make on that point.
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Jun 22 2007, 15:52
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#34
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Blackjack'd Group: Moderator Team Posts: 4,205 Joined: 18th April 2003 From: Mt Laurel, NJ USA Member No.: 4,796 Device(s): Motorola Q9h/iPhone |
In addition...XDA aren't getting review units or sponsorship in community events. They don't get software to review, nor are they partnered in things like Plus with multiple developers. They aren't alerted to pre-released breaking news, nor invited to private events. Are there any MVPs on XDA?
My point is...start to do illegal stuff and providing illegal downloads...you may not have any friends anymore. Discuss, develop, and teach to modify ROMs for personal use. Make a point to distribute or condone distribution...and there may possibly be hell to pay. 
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Jun 22 2007, 16:06
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#35
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Enthusiast  Group: Posters Posts: 264 Joined: 22nd August 2006 From: UK Member No.: 202,990 Device(s): O2 XDA Serra, SPV M3100 |
QUOTE(encece @ Jun 22 2007, 16:52) In addition...XDA aren't getting review units or sponsorship in community events. They don't get software to review, nor are they partnered in things like Plus with multiple developers. They aren't alerted to pre-released breaking news, nor invited to private events. Are there any MVPs on XDA? My point is...start to do illegal stuff and providing illegal downloads...you may not have any friends anymore. Discuss, develop, and teach to modify ROMs for personal use. Make a point to distribute or condone distribution...and there may possibly be hell to pay. I still like Paul's suggested approach. I will continue to be a member at a number of sites and peruse them all, however XDA right now (and I mean yesterday/today) seems to have relapsed rather into pointscoring and bitterness between chefs. The developers are still there but in the background, and although Sleuth is doing his best it seems they are being overwhelmed. I need a nice friendly place to come for advice or just chat, where yes you do have to mind your ps and qs. I like that fact. So far the decision to move Black off of XDA appears justified as they are avoiding the issues that are plaguing XDA at the moment and the amtoshpere is better. Modding your ROM seems much better for Modaco than downloading a different ROM and running it. Re the comment about linking to Orange ROMS that are meant for Orange customers - if the ROM is available on the Orange web site with no control over its download then theya re not limiting it to their customers (only support of the ROM). I believe HTC will require verification that you have an HTC model before you can download it, so linking to a version of it after that point would be an issue. Oh what the hell its friday afternoon and I am rambling! Sorry. -------------------- ----------------------------------
O2 XDA Serra - PROven 1.09 ROM O2 XDA Stellar - Custom Rom cooked using Mbarvians Kaiserchef and Mbarvians Solace 1.05 as a base (now deceased) Orange M3100 (Now just there to satisfy my need to flash ROMs....) |
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Jun 22 2007, 16:12
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#36
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The Main Man Group: Admin Team Posts: 21,241 Joined: 6th November 2002 From: Norwich, UK Member No.: 1 Device(s): HTC Touch HD |
encece, crazyc, you both seem to have grasped my thoughts exactly. ROMs 'in the MoDaCo way' is exactly what it's all about, not trying to do what XDA-Devs do. My 2 ROM guides give an idea as to the kind of thing that would be cool here...
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Jun 22 2007, 17:10
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#37
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 Hardcore Group: Moderator Team Posts: 8,218 Joined: 9th April 2003 From: Coventry, UK Member No.: 4,510 Device(s): HTC Touch Dual / SPV E650 |
I'm with Encece. Seems to me to be a natural progression from what we're already doing.
As for moderation issues, I've always had to follow my colleagues' lead on techno-legal matters so I don't see any change here. The limits of what would/ wouldn't be acceptable seem to be pretty clear. -------------------- First 48 Hours with a Smartphone ? Go here
Installing skins & other software MoDaCo Plus ! - join here Orange Official SPV Application Unlocking "What shirt am I wearing bro ? Are you serious ?" Jermaine Beckford 14th January 2008 |
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Jun 22 2007, 21:55
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#38
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SpinDoctorBlow Group: Posters Posts: 2,765 Joined: 25th February 2003 From: Edinburgh, UK Member No.: 3,060 |
Having read through the subsequent discussion, I think I can see now that the 'Modaco ROM' could be a good addition to the general forum here. It's been a long time since the forum had a really good 'spirit of customisation' thing going on. I guess if we could all start to learn how to cook our own ROMs that would be good fun to be involved in. There certainly is a great lack of innovative PPC customisation going on here & it might be good to get something going. But by my understanding, we still couldn't actually post/download each other's ROMs ... rather just explain how someone else could do the same ... right?
I still think that it will lead to some inevitable conflicts of interest, and a great deal of confusion at times over what exactly is & isn't legal. I still don't understand how discussion can be illegal!!
-------------------- "... time is an illusion ... lunchtime doubly so ..."
http://monosapiens.9f.com |
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Jun 23 2007, 07:43
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#39
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Hardcore Group: Moderator Team Posts: 8,218 Joined: 9th April 2003 From: Coventry, UK Member No.: 4,510 Device(s): HTC Touch Dual / SPV E650 |
QUOTE(drblow @ Jun 22 2007, 22:55) But by my understanding, we still couldn't actually post/download each other's ROMs ... rather just explain how someone else could do the same ... right? I still think that it will lead to some inevitable conflicts of interest, and a great deal of confusion at times over what exactly is & isn't legal. I still don't understand how discussion can be illegal!! That's my reading of Paul's intentions and that has always been the case. It might be illegal to advise a Qtek owner on how to obtaiin and install an iMate ROM but this would only be a case of messing about with what you already own. MoDaCo's moderation policy has always had 2 intentions. 1. to prevent software piracy and protect copyrights 2. to discourage members from destroying their phones through messiing with stuff they don't really understand. We all know how badly the ROMs are written and, having mastered the hard/soft reset procedure on my Magician, I'm fascinated by what Paul's been doing with his Touch & Wing. -------------------- First 48 Hours with a Smartphone ? Go here
Installing skins & other software MoDaCo Plus ! - join here Orange Official SPV Application Unlocking "What shirt am I wearing bro ? Are you serious ?" Jermaine Beckford 14th January 2008 |
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