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 IMAP Question
Pagemakers
post Mar 21 2005, 18:40
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I have set up an IMAP email account on my smartphone.

If I delete a message from my inbox, the next time I perform a send & receive the message re-appears. How do I prevent this from happening?


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sunoke
post Mar 21 2005, 21:16
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When you delete them, do you delete them from your deleted items? I believe that if you leave them there and sync again they disappear from there and do not appear again in your inbox.
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Pagemakers
post Mar 21 2005, 23:10
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Nope tried that. The emails still come back on the next send and recieve.


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Psicotix
post Mar 21 2005, 23:53
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QUOTE(Pagemakers @ Mar 21 2005, 23:14)
Nope tried that. The emails still come back on the next send and recieve.
*


Instead of deleting (they don't appear to be deleted from the server on send and receive and come back as new messages), I've been moving mail to my trash folder on the mail server from the phone. That looks as if it does the trick - the messages don't come back.

It's a kludge for a very annoying quirk.


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Pagemakers
post Mar 22 2005, 20:10
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That works but how do you then empty inbox.trash? The emails placed there never seem to get deleted!


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Psicotix
post Mar 23 2005, 08:25
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QUOTE(Pagemakers @ Mar 22 2005, 20:14)
That works but how do you then empty inbox.trash? The emails placed there never seem to get deleted!
*


Damn, actually checked out the contents of that folder yesterday for the first time and spotted this - sorry! :oops:
My method basically involved hiding mail in a folder until I'd got round to deleting it from the mail server.

Sorry about that Pagemakers, I've been using the mail client with the inbox.trash folder hidden until now, though I had noticed that changes made to my phone inbox had no effect on the messages on the server.

Has *anyone* managed to delete mail from their IMAP account (from their server) using their phone's mail client?


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Pagemakers
post Mar 23 2005, 09:19
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It's a bit of a major bug. How could such a blunder get through all the testing?


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Islanti
post Mar 23 2005, 18:04
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QUOTE(Psicotix @ Mar 23 2005, 01:29)
Has *anyone* managed to delete mail from their IMAP account (from their server) using their phone's mail client?
*

The problem is that the Windows Mobile Messaging application doesn't use the normal IMAP deletion system. Usually an IMAP client will simply set a flag on the server to indicate the message is marked for deletion. For example, Outlook users periodically hit "ALT+E,S" to purge the messages marked for deletion from the server. Outlook Express has an option to purge when leaving an IMAP folder.

Windows Mobile instead moves the local copy (not the IMAP server copy) to the deleted items folder. When you "purge", you're actually just deleting it from the server.

Interestingly, Entourage (the MS Office Outlook equivalent on the Mac) does this similar to WM, except that it actually moves the message to the deleted items folder on the server. I've heard Outlook's development has been taken over by the Office for Mac team, so perhaps we'll see this "innovation" moved to Outlook as well (I use quotes because you can't move messages between folders in IMAP. When you "move" a message, you're actually downloading the entire message, then uploading it back to the server in the new folder. On slow connections this takes forever).

Anyway, you can control the WM Messaging behavior somewhat. On the PocketPC:
    Tap Accounts from the Messaging menu bar.
    Tap "Accounts..." in the pop-up menu.
    Select the "Storage" tab.
    Adjust the "Empty deleted items:" field to the value you want.
The 3 values are
    Immediately - purges the deleted item when you mark it as deleted while connected or upon connection.
    On connect/disconnect - purges upon connection. If you delete something while you're still downloading messages this does NOT delete it immediately. There has to be another connection (purge is done at the beginning of the connection routine, I guess?). Until this is done, nothing happens on the server.
    Manually - You choose when to purge using Tools -> Empty Deleted Items.
On my Smartphone this seems to be locked to the "On connect/disconnect" option based on my brief testing. If you get in the habit of performing a "Send/Receive" after deleting messages, you'll be fine. I don't see any UI in the Smartphone messaging application to change this. I looked briefly in the PocketPC registry and couldn't figure out where this option is saved. I suspect if someone located this option on the PocketPC it could be changed on the Smartphone as well.


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Pagemakers
post Mar 23 2005, 18:41
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Thanks for your detailed reply.

Just one point however regarding the smartphone, if you delete then do a send & receive immediately the deleted emails do indeed go, but when you do another send & receive they just come bounding back.

I honestly feel IMAP on the smartphone is totally unusable.


QUOTE(Islanti @ Mar 23 2005, 18:08)
The problem is that the Windows Mobile Messaging application doesn't use the normal IMAP deletion system.  Usually an IMAP client will simply set a flag on the server to indicate the message is marked for deletion.  For example, Outlook users periodically hit "ALT+E,S" to purge the messages marked for deletion from the server.  Outlook Express has an option to purge when leaving an IMAP folder. 

Windows Mobile instead moves the local copy (not the IMAP server copy) to the deleted items folder.  When you "purge", you're actually just deleting it from the server.

Interestingly, Entourage (the MS Office Outlook equivalent on the Mac) does this similar to WM, except that it actually moves the message to the deleted items folder on the server.  I've heard Outlook's development has been taken over by the Office for Mac team, so perhaps we'll see this "innovation" moved to Outlook as well (I use quotes because you can't move messages between folders in IMAP.  When you "move" a message, you're actually downloading the entire message, then uploading it back to the server in the new folder.  On slow connections this takes forever).

Anyway, you can control the WM Messaging behavior somewhat.  On the PocketPC:
    Tap Accounts from the Messaging menu bar.
    Tap "Accounts..." in the pop-up menu.
    Select the "Storage" tab.
    Adjust the "Empty deleted items:" field to the value you want.
The 3 values are
    Immediately - purges the deleted item when you mark it as deleted while connected or upon connection.
    On connect/disconnect - purges upon connection.  If you delete something while you're still downloading messages this does NOT delete it immediately.  There has to be another connection (purge is done at the beginning of the connection routine, I guess?).  Until this is done, nothing happens on the server.
    Manually - You choose when to purge using Tools -> Empty Deleted Items.
On my Smartphone this seems to be locked to the "On connect/disconnect" option based on my brief testing.  If you get in the habit of performing a "Send/Receive" after deleting messages, you'll be fine.  I don't see any UI in the Smartphone messaging application to change this.  I looked briefly in the PocketPC registry and couldn't figure out where this option is saved.  I suspect if someone located this option on the PocketPC it could be changed on the Smartphone as well.
*


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Pagemakers
post Mar 23 2005, 18:41
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Thanks for your detailed reply.

Just one point however regarding the smartphone, if you delete then do a send & receive immediately the deleted emails do indeed go, but when you do another send & receive they just come bounding back.

I honestly feel IMAP on the smartphone is totally unusable.


QUOTE(Islanti @ Mar 23 2005, 18:08)
The problem is that the Windows Mobile Messaging application doesn't use the normal IMAP deletion system.  Usually an IMAP client will simply set a flag on the server to indicate the message is marked for deletion.  For example, Outlook users periodically hit "ALT+E,S" to purge the messages marked for deletion from the server.  Outlook Express has an option to purge when leaving an IMAP folder. 

Windows Mobile instead moves the local copy (not the IMAP server copy) to the deleted items folder.  When you "purge", you're actually just deleting it from the server.

Interestingly, Entourage (the MS Office Outlook equivalent on the Mac) does this similar to WM, except that it actually moves the message to the deleted items folder on the server.  I've heard Outlook's development has been taken over by the Office for Mac team, so perhaps we'll see this "innovation" moved to Outlook as well (I use quotes because you can't move messages between folders in IMAP.  When you "move" a message, you're actually downloading the entire message, then uploading it back to the server in the new folder.  On slow connections this takes forever).

Anyway, you can control the WM Messaging behavior somewhat.  On the PocketPC:
    Tap Accounts from the Messaging menu bar.
    Tap "Accounts..." in the pop-up menu.
    Select the "Storage" tab.
    Adjust the "Empty deleted items:" field to the value you want.
The 3 values are
    Immediately - purges the deleted item when you mark it as deleted while connected or upon connection.
    On connect/disconnect - purges upon connection.  If you delete something while you're still downloading messages this does NOT delete it immediately.  There has to be another connection (purge is done at the beginning of the connection routine, I guess?).  Until this is done, nothing happens on the server.
    Manually - You choose when to purge using Tools -> Empty Deleted Items.
On my Smartphone this seems to be locked to the "On connect/disconnect" option based on my brief testing.  If you get in the habit of performing a "Send/Receive" after deleting messages, you'll be fine.  I don't see any UI in the Smartphone messaging application to change this.  I looked briefly in the PocketPC registry and couldn't figure out where this option is saved.  I suspect if someone located this option on the PocketPC it could be changed on the Smartphone as well.
*


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Islanti
post Mar 23 2005, 19:58
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QUOTE(Pagemakers @ Mar 23 2005, 11:45)
Thanks for your detailed reply.

Just one point however regarding the smartphone,  if you delete then do a send & receive immediately  the deleted emails do indeed go, but when you do another send & receive they just come bounding back.

I honestly feel IMAP on the smartphone is totally unusable.
*

I use IMAP on my Smartphone multiple times a day for two different IMAP accounts and servers. I've never seen this issue. My guess is you've got some corruption in the database that stores the mail information. This could cause the messages to reappear, as the application "knows" they've been deleted so it doesn't show them. Unfortunately, the delete action didn't commit to the database, so on the next load of the information, it shows up again.

Unfortunately, the Smartphone doesn't have the "Clear account" option available on the PocketPC. What I'd try to resolve this (try each one and see if that resolves the issue):
    Delete your IMAP account and re-create it.
    Find a 3rd party utility to delete the database entries.
    Do a backup and restore, hard reset, but do not restore the mail information (possible with Sprite backup restored from PC I think).
    Hard reset and re-install everything.


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Pagemakers
post Mar 23 2005, 20:37
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I'm talking about the smartphone here not the Pocket PC.


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markgamber
post Mar 23 2005, 20:51
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QUOTE(Pagemakers @ Mar 23 2005, 20:41)
I'm talking about the smartphone here not the Pocket PC.
*


Well, the point is that the IMAP client is pretty thin, most of the work is done on the server and there's not a whole lot that can go wrong outside of that. I've used imap for years and the only problems I've ever run into were server problems. I doubt this is any different. If possible, I'd back up your mailbox, wipe it clean or delete it and then put everything back. Chances are that'll clear it up.
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Pagemakers
post Mar 23 2005, 21:00
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I don't think there is anything wrong with my IMAP folders. When I access them from my PC or laptop everything works just fine. The problem I have is I can not permanently delete "deleted" emails if I use my smartphone to do the deleting. The deleted emails just keep coming back.

I think the problem is with the smartphone software and not me.

Look at Psicotix's posting above. He says the same.

Have you actually tried it on a smartphone?


This post has been edited by Pagemakers: Mar 23 2005, 21:01


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Islanti
post Mar 23 2005, 23:57
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QUOTE(Pagemakers @ Mar 23 2005, 14:04)
I think the problem is with the smartphone software and not me.

Have you actually tried it on a smartphone?
*

As I said, I use it daily on my i-mate SP3 on two different IMAP servers without this problem. Everything I've said so far has been on the Smartphone, with some comparisons to the Pocket PC (which runs the same OS). I use IMAP on my PocketPC as well.

There's likely something wrong with the local mail database on your smartphone. As I explained, that would explain the behavior you're seeing.

The only other thing it could be is a difference in the software version. Are you running WM2003SE? What phone is this on?


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Pagemakers
post Mar 24 2005, 00:50
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I am using an SDA with 2003SE.

How are you deleting your emails - just by selecting menu/1?

And then they never come back if you do a couple of S/R?

I have just deleted and re-created my IMAP account and it makes no difference.

I also have a C500 and that does exactly the same thing.

I'm not sure what you are doing and I am not.


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Islanti
post Mar 24 2005, 01:12
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QUOTE(Pagemakers @ Mar 23 2005, 17:54)
I am using an SDA with 2003SE.

How are you deleting your emails - just by selecting menu/1?

And then they never come back if you do a couple of S/R?

I have just deleted and re-created my IMAP account and it makes no difference.

I also have a C500 and that does exactly the same thing. 

I'm not sure what you are doing and I am not.
*

I've never seen an email re-appear. I've tried S/R a few times after deleting and it never shows up again.

Too bad deleting the account didn't help. That was certainly the easiest solution. sad.gif

Do you have any information on the OS / IMAP server you're using? Both of mine are Exchange servers. Maybe MS is doing something strange on the server in my case. Wouldn't be the first time they slipped something like that in. sad.gif


This post has been edited by Islanti: Mar 24 2005, 01:12


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Pagemakers
post Mar 24 2005, 08:40
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Hmm. I'm not using an exchange server. It's just a standard linux box that supports POP & IMAP.

IMAP works fine from Outlook 2003 though.

QUOTE(Islanti @ Mar 24 2005, 01:16)
I've never seen an email re-appear.  I've tried S/R a few times after deleting and it never shows up again.

Too bad deleting the account didn't help.  That was certainly the easiest solution.  sad.gif

Do you have any information on the OS / IMAP server you're using?  Both of mine are Exchange servers.  Maybe MS is doing something strange on the server in my case.  Wouldn't be the first time they slipped something like that in.  sad.gif
*


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Islanti
post Mar 24 2005, 17:30
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QUOTE(Pagemakers @ Mar 24 2005, 01:44)
Hmm.  I'm not using an exchange server.  It's just a standard linux box that supports POP & IMAP.

IMAP works fine from Outlook 2003 though.
*


Whether Outlook works or not doesn't matter since the way message deletion is done with WM2003 is completely different (as I described earlier). You wanted a likely reason, I'm guessing it has something to do with the way WM2003 and your IMAP server are interacting. I suspect the other forum poster has a similar server. You might want to compare the IMAP server, version number, and configuration with the other poster to see if there's something in common there.


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Psicotix
post Mar 25 2005, 01:42
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QUOTE(Islanti @ Mar 24 2005, 17:34)
Whether Outlook works or not doesn't matter since the way message deletion is done with WM2003 is completely different (as I described earlier).  You wanted a likely reason, I'm guessing it has something to do with the way WM2003 and your IMAP server are interacting.  I suspect the other forum poster has a similar server.  You might want to compare the IMAP server, version number, and configuration with the other poster to see if there's something in common there.
*