Multi line SIM card

[Guest drreid]

I want two numbers on my SIM card so that I can use multiple ring profiles instead of having to carry two phones. Even though I have a total of 40 lines with Cingular, they will not do this for me. Anyone know an insider who might get it done, or have another idea? I haven't seen a phone with slots for multiple cards, if there were one I could do it that way. Possibly I'll switch to T-Mobile with my 40 lines when my Cingular contract is up as I understand that they accomodate this and other things for their customers.

[Guest derricktothecity]

I want two numbers on my SIM card so that I can use multiple ring profiles instead of having to carry two phones. Even though I have a total of 40 lines with Cingular, they will not do this for me. Anyone know an insider who might get it done, or have another idea? I haven't seen a phone with slots for multiple cards, if there were one I could do it that way. Possibly I'll switch to T-Mobile with my 40 lines when my Cingular contract is up as I understand that they accomodate this and other things for their customers.

After thinking about this one for a while, there are two ways that you could accomplish this. The first would be through call forwarding. Since the forwarding is done at the network level you could set the first line to be forwarded to the other line that you wanted to carry. Once the forwarding is set you could actually turn the phone off. Most phones will show when an incoming call is a forwarded call, this way you would know which calls are coming from which line. There would be no specific "ring profile" for calls coming from the other line. The second way to do this would be with a "super" sim. These devices allow you to replicate up to 12 sim numbers or "lines" onto one "super" sim. In other words, once you had inserted the sim into your phone, it would be capable of using 12 seperate lines. The drawback to the "super" sim is that it will not recieve all 12 at the exact same time. The lines must be switched within the sim services menu of the phone, or can be set to automatically switch at certain times of the day. Some super sims even require you to power off/on the phone before it will switch lines. Aside from these methods, there is nothing more that I can think of, and nothing more the carrier can do for you. I seriously doubt that T-mobile would be capable of getting multiple lines to your phone and have your phone recognize the difference.

[Guest drreid]

After thinking about this one for a while, there are two ways that you could accomplish this. The first would be through call forwarding. Since the forwarding is done at the network level you could set the first line to be forwarded to the other line that you wanted to carry. Once the forwarding is set you could actually turn the phone off. Most phones will show when an incoming call is a forwarded call, this way you would know which calls are coming from which line. There would be no specific "ring profile" for calls coming from the other line. The second way to do this would be with a "super" sim. These devices allow you to replicate up to 12 sim numbers or "lines" onto one "super" sim. In other words, once you had inserted the sim into your phone, it would be capable of using 12 seperate lines. The drawback to the "super" sim is that it will not recieve all 12 at the exact same time. The lines must be switched within the sim services menu of the phone, or can be set to automatically switch at certain times of the day. Some super sims even require you to power off/on the phone before it will switch lines. Aside from these methods, there is nothing more that I can think of, and nothing more the carrier can do for you. I seriously doubt that T-mobile would be capable of getting multiple lines to your phone and have your phone recognize the difference.

[Guest drreid]

I appreciate the attempt to help but if it is not possible to put two numbers on a SIM that the phone can handle then why does Motorola make phones to handle that very thing? Moto advises the V3, for instance, can handle a SIM with up to 4 numbers and a ring profile can be selected for each. One merely needs to select the line that they want to use for outgoing calls.

I cannot solve my problem with call forwarding all of the time. I already do solve it that way part of the time. My issue, and I know others that have the same issue, is that my job requires me to answer my phone 24/7/365/always. But I have many people that I communicate with via cell phone that I do not want waking me up when I"m asleep or bothering me when I'm watching a movie, etc. So I set one phone (my work phone) to ring to wake me up if necessary, and the other phone I turn off or put on silent mode when I'm not available.

Until I can get a real two line phone with ringer profiles that can be set for each line, I have to carry two phones.

Dave

[Guest derricktothecity]

I appreciate the attempt to help but if it is not possible to put two numbers on a SIM that the phone can handle then why does Motorola make phones to handle that very thing? Moto advises the V3, for instance, can handle a SIM with up to 4 numbers and a ring profile can be selected for each. One merely needs to select the line that they want to use for outgoing calls.

I cannot solve my problem with call forwarding all of the time. I already do solve it that way part of the time. My issue, and I know others that have the same issue, is that my job requires me to answer my phone 24/7/365/always. But I have many people that I communicate with via cell phone that I do not want waking me up when I"m asleep or bothering me when I'm watching a movie, etc. So I set one phone (my work phone) to ring to wake me up if necessary, and the other phone I turn off or put on silent mode when I'm not available.

Until I can get a real two line phone with ringer profiles that can be set for each line, I have to carry two phones.

Dave

If that is a feature that the V3 claims, it must be able to use the super SIMs. Like I said before, you can store up to 12 SIMS in one Super SIM. I would definitely start out by trying one in the phone and seeing if it works. What can it hurt?

[Guest Mattt]

Hi drreid, I have to strongly disagree with what Derrick is saying. I really hate it when people speak with authority on matters about which they clearly know nothing. What you require IS technically possible, IS supported by various handset manufacturers and IS supported by some networks.

For several years I had various Nokias on Orange UK, I always had TWO (2) lines with seperate numbers (BOTH incoming OR outgoing) on ONE (1) sim in ONE (1) handset. Orange UK have offered this feature for around 10 years! When I had 2 lines I could assign a different ring tone to each one, they were both active simultaneously and I could silence or divert each one seperately. This is a feature available on a lot of handsets but not on most networks. Most networks have Nokia or Motorola remove this menu from their handsets so you don't know what your missing. I used it exactly as you intend to, one for work and one for friends, it worked brilliantly. However, around the end of 1999, Nokia changed their phones, so you now have to have the same ring tone for both lines - disaster, I dropped my "Line 2" shortly after this but I still miss it. I know Orange are not the only network to offer this feature here in the UK, I would not be surprised if T-Mobile could offer you the same. As for supersim being your only option - well thats just simply very bad advice from someone who's never heard of "LINE 2".

If you want to know any more about the whole "Line 2" thing, just ask.

Good luck, Mattt

[Guest drreid]

If you want to know any more about the whole "Line 2" thing, just ask.

Good luck, Mattt

Matt - I have asked the two GSM providers in my area that I know of (Cingular and T-Mobile) and neither is willing to accomodate. If you have any other ideas as to how I could get both my lines on one card despite them I would appreciate them. Thanks, Dave

[Guest cypherkin]

Hi drreid, I have to strongly disagree with what Derrick is saying. I really hate it when people speak with authority on matters about which they clearly know nothing.

Hey Matt -- I am glad that you know about these things; but please users are users. Not everyone knows everything; and can't be expected to know everything. You could have just said that "This is the option....."

please do not offend or insult other users.

thanks

[Guest jchamier]

Guys,

It may be worth noting that only Orange in the UK offer this feature. The network has to have the equipment to support it. If neither T-Mob (US) or Cingular have the equipment in the network to support it, this feature is not available.

I seem to remember (from years ago, Paul (MVP) may also know, as he was on the same list) that this is a feature of Phase 2 of the GSM spec, and the two newer GSM networks in the UK were Phase 2, but one2one (now T-Mob UK) never supported it.

The handsets have the support it as well. Nokia's did from the beginning, but Motorola didn't.

I guess the networks and handset vendors didn't consider it a "must have" feature, or a revenue earning feature, unlike SMS or MMS, or WAP ? ;-)

James

[Guest kam_]

Firstly i strongly agree with Mattt that its anoying when people speak with authority about things they don't know about. The point i beleive he was making was not that everyone who doesnt know everything shouldn't contribute, but more the way they make their 'sugestion'. Posts these days are too often worded by users as 'it IS this way' and very less often 'i think its this way'. I'm sure his complaining was out of frustration.

Its not good for anyone if people unwitingly give false information in a way that makes users beleive it to be true because that person has concrete knowledge about it.

Ok so now back to the topic.. There are 4 things that need clarifying here:

1) Multisim copies the secret key from your sim card onto this 'emulated' supersim. In order to retreive that key it can take 4 to 12 hours of polling your sim in a card reader. The current key extraction techniques ONLY work on COMP128 v1 and exploit a flaw in that algorithm.

Even if you don't understand what that means whats relevant to you is that many networks know full well that people do this, and its a security risk. They have countermeasures to stop you doing this to their sims.

- Most networks now use COMP128 v2, You will be unable to use these SIM cards with multisim, so don't waste your time. Do a google search to see if your provider is using V2 - i'm sure others have tried it and reported it in some forum somewhere. WORST CASE: you waste your money on the Super SIM

- Some networks still use COMP128 v1 but do it three times, implementing 3DES. This removes the vulnerability in COMP 128 v1. Efectively its the same as if they use v2, supersim just wont work.

- Most networks put a query limit in their sim card. After a few million queries the sim card locks up and dies. Under normal circumstances it would take about 10 years for you to make that many queries, but with the super sim reader that will happen in about 4 hours. WORST CASE - you need to order a new sim, which they may charge you for. I advise u don't send the old sim back intact if this happens to you!

Ok so even if multisim works, you have to activate the sim before you can make or receive calls on it. Also don't expect to be able to use your original sim, and the 'clone' of it on the supersim at the same time. Only 1 will receive calls (the last one to register - they re-register about every 20 mins, so expect it to yo-yo from one sim to the other). You will only be able to make a call on one sim at any time - the supersim copy, or the original. If you make a call on the original while a call is in progress ont he clone, it will signal a HLR security message. Alot of these and they may wonder whats up.

Anyway supersim is a waste of time and money expect in very very few circumstances, and in fewer and fewer countries as everyone upgrades to comp v2. For you its not the solution your looking for anyway.

2) Divertion.

Sure this will work, and you will get a 'diverted' on your phone as it comes in. Depending on the phone you may or may not be able to set a seperate ringtone.

BUT remember you have to pay for the diverted section of the call. So this could get very expensive for you.

Another method is to get a divert number. There's alot of companies on the net that sell them/give them away. You just divert that number to your phone and it costs you nothing. The downside is that its not a normal mobile number, and so isn't included in mobile plans. It'll cost your callers more.

I beleive your in the US, so in that case it will either be a premium rate number, or one they charge u a fee for. Its different for the US, because with mobile calls you pay the premium - the caller gets charged as if it was a landline, and u pay to receive the call - so i advise you check this out properly first.

3) Line 2, multiple lines.

This is indeed a feature of GSM phase 2 sim cards. Actually its just an aditional field and you can see it in the 11.11 spec - there's nothing special done on the SIM. The field just holds the line 2 MSISDN (number), and the phone handles the line 2 flag as it comes in. Its only actually needed for cosmetics when dialing out and receiving calls, but actually will work with a phase 1 sim receiving line 2 calls.

Two distinct MSISDN's are asigned to the HLR record, but you use the same Ki keys and IMSI. Efectively its the same authentication scheme, and the higher layers handle the call management.

Anyway.. Line 2 is the 'oficial' way to handle 2 lines in GSM. From your point of view they are 2 distinct lines, and your phone lets u pick which line u want to dial out of. Weather it can asign ringtones to each incoming call type is a function of the phone.

Only the newer operators support this, and even if your operator is very new they may not be using a dataload with that feature enabled - probably didn't want to pay for the extra modules on the HLR.

Its not just a simple matter for them to switch it on in that case, and if they say they can't do it, don't expect slapping them about with your 40 contracts will change anything.

Even if they can do it, your particular phone may or may not be able to show you which line the call is coming from - this is phone specific.

4) Multiple incoming numbers - another method..

For incoming calls you have a global title (phone number) asigned to your phone. Its the external identifier of your phone. External to the network that is.

If i dial your number from my phone here, it gets routed to the PSTN network, and then it uses the dial codes to figure out where to send it - just like if i call your home phone in the US, it'll be routed exchange by exchange till it gets to your home city.

Anyway the call then ends up at your network. Your network looks up the number and translates it to an IMSI. the IMSI is the unique identifier of your phone INSIDE their network. The call is then routed to your phone using your IMSI.

This is the normal process a call takes. In fact even if i were on your network and i dialed your number, it still needs to look up that number and figure out the coresponding IMSI.

The bottom line is that there is ALWAYS a phonenumber -> IMSI translation.

Because of that, its possible to put 2 phonenumbers for 1 IMSI. Both will translate to 1 IMSI, i.e. your phone!

This can be done in a few ways actually.

- If their HLR supports it, they can add the second number to your record.

- If their HLR supports it they can add multiple records for your account - both translate to the same IMSI (more problamatic from a billing perspective)

- On the switch they can setup a permanent divert from the new number to your original number. It may or may not show up as a divert, depending on how they decide to configure it.

The first 2 options above may or may not be posible, the third definately is. If you make neough noise they may give in and do that for you. Although you'll need to get someone from their tehcnical team to vouch that it will work and not cause billing problems.

The downside tho is that your phone won't see the distinct numbers. You can't choose which to dial out of for example. Also depending on if they set the divert flag or not, you may not be able to see which number the call came from.

Anyway, any questions feel free to ask!