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Headphone & amplified sound output

23 posts in this topic

Posted · Report post

hi guys,

2nd ever post here & 1st ever windows phone....

could someone pls explain something that's doing my head in?!!

i have the tg01 (obv !!) UK, bought on sunday (27-12) orange PAYG.

i won't crow on about loving the phone as its early days....

.............but so far so good, it's on 6.5 & has R)M 5005.0001.67, so i'm guessing its one of the later ones & perhaps free from the early glitches of the 1st 6.1 models..... ...........perhaps.....

anyway - my question/problem is...

i'm having trouble outputing sound...

as well as the incl usb-3.5mm handsfree adaptor i've bought a non-HF adaptor

(the results are the same on both adapters...)

i can use the adapter on my own headphones with 100% success (= the played music arrives thru the headphone & is NOT played on the phone external speaker)

i can plug the device into the 'AUX in' on my car stereo & again the sound plays thru the car speakers & not the phone speaker (& the volume can be controlled by the car head unit)

when i plug the device into either of my amps, it won't work at all - its as if the phone doesn't think that any speakers are connected externally & defaults to the phone's (external) speaker

is this

a) a fault

:) something to do with WM6.5

c) something to do with the toshiba usb driver's compatibility with an amplified output (although it works in the car...)

d) a local setting on the phone

can i fix this? is it a setting change? will your phones output to amps? (my g/f's lg cookie has no drama playing to the same amp)

please help/advise?!!!

cheers

adam

[why is my gut feeling that this is a limitation of micro usb conection for audio output & i should just consider myself f**in lucky it works in the car....]

I

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Its not a fault, just the way it works,

unlike other devices with a propper headphone socket that includes an actual swich to route the audio, the tg01 neads to see a resistance of 4 ohms accross the headphone pins in the mini usb socket,to make it switch the audio, most amps phono inputs have an input impedence of 75 ohms - to large for the tg01 to sence, use a 3.5mm headphone splitter with headphones plugged into one side and the other to your amp.

sorted

Edited by delboydell
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Posted · Report post

Its not a fault, just the way it works,

unlike other devices with a propper headphone socket that includes an actual swich to route the audio, the tg01 neads to see a resistance of 4 ohms accross the headphone pins in the mini usb socket,to make it switch the audio, most amps phono inputs have an input impedence of 75 ohms - to large for the tg01 to sence, use a 3.5mm headphone splitter with headphones plugged into one side and the other to your amp.

sorted

thank you very, very much - i've been googling this all day & you get back to me within 15mins !!!

thanks again - seems like i am lucky it works in the car :)

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Posted · Report post

your car radio will be a headphone input(a 3.5mm socket? and is designed for a higher input voltage) than the red and bleck (white) phono sockets

glad i could help

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Posted · Report post

thanks again - the whole thing was confusing the **** outta me... i get lost away from PCs & motorbikes :)

that was the final peice of the puzzle, (the car thing - which is 3.5mm)

not sure i need the phone going thru the amp (ipod does that) but i'm glad my phone isn't broken or faulty !!!

happy nye buddy ;))

cheers

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Posted (edited) · Report post

thanks again - the whole thing was confusing the **** outta me... i get lost away from PCs & motorbikes :)

that was the final peice of the puzzle, (the car thing - which is 3.5mm)

not sure i need the phone going thru the amp (ipod does that) but i'm glad my phone isn't broken or faulty !!!

happy nye buddy ;) )

cheers

Isn't there any chance to force the TG01 by software to switch the audio output to the micros USB? The hardware workaround with the cable splitter and headphones is ok, but I don't like the look of the cable chaos in my car.

Anyone has a guess how the sound quality would be using a BT headset / dog tag like this:

3-26-08-bt8030_jabra.jpg

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/26/jabras-...mimics-dog-tag/

Edited by die_Leuchte
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Posted (edited) · Report post

thanks again - the whole thing was confusing the **** outta me... i get lost away from PCs & motorbikes :)

that was the final peice of the puzzle, (the car thing - which is 3.5mm)

not sure i need the phone going thru the amp (ipod does that) but i'm glad my phone isn't broken or faulty !!!

happy nye buddy B) )

cheers

To add a little to the story... the previous explanation is right in principle - in that the TG01 (or more accurately the requirements of the newer Micro USB port specification) does require a certain resistance to be presented to the device and it is this which it interprests as to how to respond.

If the two data lines D- and D+ are shorted, it will go into Charge mode. If it sees a resistance of around 20 Ohms or more it will switch the audio output to the micro USB port. Typical earphones will have an impedance of around 30 Ohms, while the input to many battery powered external speakers is 4 or perhaps 8 Ohms. This is why your TG01 worked fine into the earphones but not your external feed.

I can suggest 3 possible solutions:

1. Use a proper line isolating unit (eg. Audio Line Isolators) - particularly beneficial if in a car or wanting to connect to a home hi-fi system as this provides total electrical isolation (and removes the likelihood of ground loop 'hum') between your device and the rest of the system. The inpuit impedance of these is typically > 10,000 Ohms (10 kOhms)

For handheld / portable use 2 further options:

2. Buy a ready made line attenuator such as that supplied with Shure earphones like the SE530 - this is the Shure PA-235. Internally this contains a high quality dual-gang 500 Ohm rotary potentiomenter which connects across the output from the PDA. The variable output then provides a feed to the earphones (or other amp) proportional in amplitude to its position round the track.

3. Get out the soldering iron and make up a connector which simply needs to have one 470 Ohm resistor (nearest standard value) inserted between the Ground and Left channel and a second 470 Ohm resistor inserted between Ground and Right channel leads. This gives a fixed output but otherwise does exactly the same job as the Shure device in telling the PDA that it should switch to external audio out.

Although the effective AC impedance of the combination is actually just a fraction less than the 4 or 8 Ohms of the end device, the DC resistance seen by the PDA is high enough to trigger it to switch into (and stay switched) audio output mode.

For interest the formula is: Rout = (R1 x R2) / (R1 + R2) ... so for a 4 Ohm speaker Rout = (500 x 4) / (500 + 4) = 2000 / 504 = 3.96 Ohms

Trust that helps clarify....

Best regards,

Kevin

Edited by kevinpwhite
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Posted (edited) · Report post

cheers Kevin,

i really appreciate the in depth explanation

luckily it works ok in the car, but if it didn't i'd definately get a stereo line transformer (now i know they exist & what they do :))

i'm not often listening to the phone thru the house amp (itouch/cd does that) but the odd occasion when i do, i use (as delboydell suggested) a headphone splitter & that works fine B)

Thanks

Edited by adzman808
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Posted (edited) · Report post

To add a little to the story... ... so for a 4 Ohm speaker Rout = (500 x 4) / (500 + 4) = 2000 / 504 = 3.96 Ohms

Trust that helps clarify....

Best regards,

Kevin

Thanks a lot Kevin, very useful. It seems that you are an expert in our "special" TG01 micro USB. Any idea about how to charge AND use the USB (as audio output OR Host USB) AT THE SAME time? This is one of the handicaps of our device

In the same way, I'm thinking in an idea to charge TG01 (or work with it attached to the main line) connecting two little metallic contacts between the battery and the device pins. My question is if the voltage must be exactly 3,7V DC (provided by a reference regulator) to avoid damaging the unit or it could be higher (between 3,7 and 5V DC) because the battery plays as a filter.

What do you think about?

Edited by xdalover
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Posted (edited) · Report post

Charging AND Audio out simultaneously....

I am currently trying to figure out how to achieve exactly the same thing, but this currently does not appear to be easily achieved due to the conflicting data pin conditions needed.

There is however in the micro-USB plug / socket an additional Status pin (Pin 4), compared to a normal USB connector, which is also used to signal to the phone what mode it is to adopt. The USB Host connector supplied with the TG01 uses this (Status is shorted to Ground) to signal the phone to go into Host mode. There are a further 32 states defined in the micro-USB On the Go (OTG) spec which cover all sorts of conditions. Each state relates to a very specific resistance value between Pin 4 and Ground.

It appears the micro-USN spec indicates use of an external Accessory Charger Adapter which contains a dedicated chip capable of generating the specific resistances and also handling the switching of the phone, an external charger and other peripherals like a car kit, external hi-fi or similar. Such a chip (Freescale MC34825 Datasheet) is now coming onto the market (references started to appear in Nov 09, eg. Freescale MC34825 ) but I have not been able to find any retail devices available to purchase based on it. I think we are basically a little ahead of the curve here and still waiting for the accessory manufactureres to catch up. I have made contact with Freescale, but am not particularly optimistic about the prospect of this leadingt to a DIY solution.

I would be extremely wary of trying to directly connect to the battery while in situ - there is a highly sophisticated charging circuit under processor control which you would at the minimum be bypassing and I think with a very high possibility of frying the phone. My past experience is largely with the old Toshiba e830 PDA (in many respects TG01 minus built-in phone, though I added that witha Compact Flash format GSM/GPRS card) - I happily ran that all day long simply by having a few spare Mugen batteries on hand. I am currently waiting delivery of 2 of the 1.3Ah Mugens and intend to see how I get on with those. What would be useful would be an off-device charger similar to the one previously available with the e8xx series - I may try to adapt one of those to the purpose.

The other angle on simultaneous audio / charging is to utilise the Bluetooth capability - I have acquired a Linx B-Tube external speaker very cheaply (Amazon) just to play with - and that works well, recognising the inevitable limitations of the speaker size etc., - but fine for what it's meant for. I am also getting a Sony-Ericsson earphone BT unit similar to the Motorola device illustrated above. I can confirm that charging while using BT audio out does work absolutely fine.

Regards,

Kevin

Edited by kevinpwhite
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Posted · Report post

Get out the soldering iron and make up a connector which simply needs to have one 470 Ohm resistor (nearest standard value) inserted between the Ground and Left channel and a second 470 Ohm resistor inserted between Ground and Right channel leads. This gives a fixed output but otherwise does exactly the same job as the Shure device in telling the PDA that it should switch to external audio out.

Although the effective AC impedance of the combination is actually just a fraction less than the 4 or 8 Ohms of the end device, the DC resistance seen by the PDA is high enough to trigger it to switch into (and stay switched) audio output mode.

For interest the formula is: Rout = (R1 x R2) / (R1 + R2) ... so for a 4 Ohm speaker Rout = (500 x 4) / (500 + 4) = 2000 / 504 = 3.96 Ohms

Trust that helps clarify....

Best regards,

Kevin

so to mimick the shure device.

1 - go to maplin, buy 2 x 470 O resistor

2 - buy cheap & nasty earphones from pound shop

3 - cut off 3.5 jack with sufficent cable to strip back & soilder in the resistors (basically in place of each headphone speaker)

4 - insulate it

5 - plug into 3.5 headphone jack splitter, attaching splitter to amp & pda using appropriate cables

6 - enjoy or depending on my ability with item 4, ring firebrigade whilst frantically trying to remove belongings from flaming home!!!

please dont think you didn't explain it peoperly, i'm not just on the same page or indeed the same book as you !!

thanks

Adam

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Posted · Report post

post-610715-1263679667_thumb.jpg

so to mimick the shure device.

1 - go to maplin, buy 2 x 470 O resistor

2 - buy cheap & nasty earphones from pound shop

3 - cut off 3.5 jack with sufficent cable to strip back & soilder in the resistors (basically in place of each headphone speaker)

4 - insulate it

5 - plug into 3.5 headphone jack splitter, attaching splitter to amp & pda using appropriate cables

6 - enjoy or depending on my ability with item 4, ring firebrigade whilst frantically trying to remove belongings from flaming home!!!

please dont think you didn't explain it peoperly, i'm not just on the same page or indeed the same book as you !!

thanks

Adam

Adam,

General principle - yes; however I'd suggest something like the illustration to maximise audio quality - here I've made up a microUSB to 3.5mm jack cable (eg. for connecting TG01 to an external amplifier or typical travel speaker for example).

This uses a uUSB connector, high quality silver coated OFC copper cable and Neutrik 3.5mm gold plated jack plug. I have incorporated the two resistors within the jack plug (inserted first before soldering the leads). All connections are silver soldered.

In this case I've used 100k Ohm resistors because I particularly want a high resistance presented to the amp; as far as the question of persuading the TG01 to swich audio out put to the uUSB rather than internal speaker - anything above 500 Ohms will be fine.

Regards,

Kevin

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Adam,

General principle - yes; however I'd suggest something like the illustration to maximise audio quality - here I've made up a microUSB to 3.5mm jack cable (eg. for connecting TG01 to an external amplifier or typical travel speaker for example).

This uses a uUSB connector, high quality silver coated OFC copper cable and Neutrik 3.5mm gold plated jack plug. I have incorporated the two resistors within the jack plug (inserted first before soldering the leads). All connections are silver soldered.

In this case I've used 100k Ohm resistors because I particularly want a high resistance presented to the amp; as far as the question of persuading the TG01 to swich audio out put to the uUSB rather than internal speaker - anything above 500 Ohms will be fine.

Regards,

Kevin

Where can I buy a microUSB connector like yours (90º) Did you buy it on a WEB?

Thankyou

Edited by xdalover
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Posted · Report post

Where can I buy a microUSB connector like yours (90º) Did you buy it on a WEB?

Thankyou

As yet I've note found a proper component supplier for these connectors, so have purchased a few ready made leads from eBay andthen carefully opened up the plastci housing and unsoldered the leads before re-making.

There is a useable one here though they are a little bulky. Have to prise the shell apart carefully with a sharp blade and watch not to break the lugs. The one in the picture above came from here, but I ordered a few more at Christas and he has supplied different moulded-on ones which are not any use for this purpose. I have just found an alternative source listed here with the identical connector to my photo. You may even find that this 'Motorola' adapter works OK without the mods.

Regards,

Kevin

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Posted · Report post

As yet I've note found a proper component supplier for these connectors, so have purchased a few ready made leads from eBay andthen carefully opened up the plastci housing and unsoldered the leads before re-making.

There is a useable one here though they are a little bulky. Have to prise the shell apart carefully with a sharp blade and watch not to break the lugs. The one in the picture above came from here, but I ordered a few more at Christas and he has supplied different moulded-on ones which are not any use for this purpose. I have just found an alternative source listed here with the identical connector to my photo. You may even find that this 'Motorola' adapter works OK without the mods.

Regards,

Kevin

does the motorola one already have the resisitors in place (hence the bulge in the middle?)

PS - i think this what the other links reffer too, but half the price....? :)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT

cheers

Adam

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Posted (edited) · Report post

does the motorola one already have the resisitors in place (hence the bulge in the middle?)

PS - i think this what the other links reffer too, but half the price....? :)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT

cheers

Adam

Adam,

I don't know what the bulge in the middle of the 'Moto' offering is - I suspect it is a press to talk; possibly built-in mic, but until I receive an example from HK won't know for sure. If it is that, then would effectively be the same as the supplied Toshiba adapter - that on it's own doesn't solve the audio out issue - you need the DC resistance of the earphones plugged in the end (or modified cable with added Rs) to tell the TG01 to switch audio to the D+ and D- pins of the uUSB port.

The item in the link you provided is a Nokia compatible adapter - essentially the same thing but I believe probably has a 2.5mm jack socket rather than 3.5mm on the end. There will be no resistors built in and also note that the uUSB plug is a moulded-on type which is no use if you want to be able to re-solder to a new cable. Assuming it does have the Ground, D+ and D- connections corect inside the moulding, you could however cut the cable and adapt the free end by fitting a trailing 3.5mm socket with resistors included similar to my previous photo. Maplin also do a similar nickel-plated equivalent.

Regards,

Kevin

Edited by kevinpwhite
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Posted · Report post

Adam,

I don't know what the bulge in the middle of the 'Moto' offering is - I suspect it is a press to talk; possibly built-in mic, but until I receive an example from HK won't know for sure. If it is that, then would effectively be the same as the supplied Toshiba adapter - that on it's own doesn't solve the audio out issue - you need the DC resistance of the earphones plugged in the end (or modified cable with added Rs) to tell the TG01 to switch audio to the D+ and D- pins of the uUSB port.

The item in the link you provided is a Nokia compatible adapter - essentially the same thing but I believe probably has a 2.5mm jack socket rather than 3.5mm on the end. There will be no resistors built in and also note that the uUSB plug is a moulded-on type which is no use if you want to be able to re-solder to a new cable. Assuming it does have the Ground, D+ and D- connections corect inside the moulding, you could however cut the cable and adapt the free end by fitting a trailing 3.5mm socket with resistors included similar to my previous photo. Maplin also do a similar nickel-plated equivalent.

Regards,

Kevin

thanks Kevin, very helpful

i have one of the nokia compatible adaptors, the usb end comes apart very easily & it has 3 connections (in use) inside..

cheers

Adam

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Posted (edited) · Report post

thanks Kevin, very helpful

i have one of the nokia compatible adaptors, the usb end comes apart very easily & it has 3 connections (in use) inside..

cheers

Adam

OK - if you want to re-solder then the following is the pin-out:

Pin 1 - Not connected

Pin 2 - USB Data D- (White) - Left Channel audio

Pin 3 - USB Data D+ (Green) - Right Channel audio

Pin 4 - ID Pin Not connected

Pin 5 - 0V

Your resistors need to be between 2 and 5 and 3 and 5. They can be at either end of the cable as desired.

Regards,

Kevin

Edited by kevinpwhite
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post-610715-1263679667_thumb.jpg

Adam,

General principle - yes; however I'd suggest something like the illustration to maximise audio quality - here I've made up a microUSB to 3.5mm jack cable (eg. for connecting TG01 to an external amplifier or typical travel speaker for example).

This uses a uUSB connector, high quality silver coated OFC copper cable and Neutrik 3.5mm gold plated jack plug. I have incorporated the two resistors within the jack plug (inserted first before soldering the leads). All connections are silver soldered.

In this case I've used 100k Ohm resistors because I particularly want a high resistance presented to the amp; as far as the question of persuading the TG01 to swich audio out put to the uUSB rather than internal speaker - anything above 500 Ohms will be fine.

Regards,

Kevin

Hello Kevin,

Please could you tell me where did you puchase the cable for your audio lead and what CSA do I need to buy?

thanks :)

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Hello Kevin,

Please could you tell me where did you puchase the cable for your audio lead and what CSA do I need to buy?

thanks :)

Hi mkultr4,

eBay for all items as follows, though Connect Audio also have a normal storefront - http://www.connect-audio.co.uk/

The cable is from Connect Audio - in this case I used one of their ready made 5m 3.5mm - 3.5mm ready made extension cables and cut into several pieces for different purposes.

The 3.5mm Neutrik plug from the same source.

The uUSB Plug also came from eBay - removed from an audio adapter sold by the same supplier as per this listing: audio adapters and the refitted to my lead.

NB. This seller initially supplied the type shown in the photo; then sent some moulded-on ones like that shown in the eBay listing, but he has now obtained further stock of the 'right' sort - if you go to him, suggest specify what you are after so you get the right ones.

As mentioned previously I havn't yet found a direct source of these from any of the component suppliers.

Forgive me being dim - but what does 'CSA' in your question stand for ?

Best regards,

Kevin

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Hello kevin,

Thanks for the quick response. CSA stands for cross sectional area( mm 2) of the conductors. I thought all cable was sold as eg .5 mm2 or 'gauge'. I have a Russ andrews mini interconnect that I will probably use but I thought it might be a bit too big for the micro usb plug. I will look at conect audio to see theirs. I will let you know how I get on.

regards,

mkultr4

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Hello kevin,

Thanks for the quick response. CSA stands for cross sectional area( mm 2) of the conductors. I thought all cable was sold as eg .5 mm2 or 'gauge'. I have a Russ andrews mini interconnect that I will probably use but I thought it might be a bit too big for the micro usb plug. I will look at conect audio to see theirs. I will let you know how I get on.

regards,

mkultr4

Yes, I was being dim ! The cable is Van Damme, composed of 2 insulated and 1 plain conductors, each of 7 strands OFC individually plated 0.18mm diameter (ie. 0.1mm2; total 0.7mm per conductor) within an overall fully lapped foild screen.

The size is just about right for this type of application - any thicker and it would be very difficult to terminate successfully.

Hope that helps,

Regards,

Kevin

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Posted · Report post

Its not a fault, just the way it works,

unlike other devices with a propper headphone socket that includes an actual swich to route the audio, the tg01 neads to see a resistance of 4 ohms accross the headphone pins in the mini usb socket,to make it switch the audio, most amps phono inputs have an input impedence of 75 ohms - to large for the tg01 to sence, use a 3.5mm headphone splitter with headphones plugged into one side and the other to your amp.

sorted

woo was bugging me for ages!!!!

nice 1 i have tunes again!!

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