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Do we deserve an answer from Orange and MS ?

22 posts in this topic

Posted · Report post

In the newsgroups at microsoft.public.smartphone in thread "When will 1st patch be available?" (25/11/2002) Neil Enns [MS] wrote :

"There have been no announcements about availability of an update."

Since my official reply (28/11/2002) seems to go unnoticed I will take this forum to see what people think about this. Here is my official answer to Neil.

______________________________

Neil,

I think the question was not if there has been an announcement but rather if there will be an announcement. So far we have :

- No Software Support from 3rd Party Developers due to certification issues

- No Software Support from Microsoft as it can not say its definitly working

on any fixes (we not asking for when but rather if you are ! )

- No Support from Orange as they don't even know how to configure VPN yet... hopefully they will train someone soon.

Ok here it comes :

Why did you bother selling a phone if you knew you were not going to be able

to support it ?

Why did you bother to develop and release an Operating System for it when

you knew that you were joining forces with Mobile2Market to get ISV's to

require certificiation - something that now disables any efforts from 3rd

Party Developers due to cost - hence this system will not be supported ?

Does MS suddenly have too much money to waste that they develop a system and

do not support it or even its users ?

Does Orange have anything to say to MS about their behaviour with regards to

certification ? Does this not hurt MS Image in the smartphone market ? Why

does the Jornada at Vodafone or the XDA at O2 not require the same ? Is the

certification factor the reason the Sendo was pulled out of the market ?

Neil ... I appreciate your answer but please do not answer around the pie.

It can be frustrating when you just spent a lot of money and agreed to spent

a lot more for another 12 months and what you actually got has a dark cloud

over it that spells : "This technology is no longer supported." and no-one

wants to explain, offer or even argue that this is not the case.

Also about the announcements .. I am sure you have been told to make this

statement. Take it back and tell them we, the users, buyers or whatever we

are, want to know why (now in the selling period of this phone) there is no

announcement of further support.

Just another User .... 3..5..14..20

_________________________________

What do you guys think. Do we deserve an answer to this ?

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Posted · Report post

I think its highly unlikely ORANGE will change there position on certification.

I imagine as there more or less giving the phone away there planning on making the money back with software/GPRS.

Its a real shame cos im sure this phone would seriously take off if only you didnt need orange CERT'd programs.

In the last few years you would buy a phone and have the fun of finding new software/uses for it over the following months. With the SPV now ive had a good play with all the features the WOW factor has worn off and theres nothing to add to it. The 3 games I have found (cards, casino and rebound) are rubbish and theres no apps to download. Im seriously missing my encrypted pw store for starters.

Oh boy I wish orange had stuck a higher price on the phone and not started giving it away and recouped there money by getting people to pay for the handsets and not threw silly certification.

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Posted · Report post

Er, CodeWallet, included on the SD?!?

P

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Posted · Report post

What leads you to believe that there will be no support for the OS?

Microsoft have consistently released fixes for ALL of their products ever since they started selling them. Why should Smartphone 2002 be any different?

There have been 31 fixes released for Windows CE v2.12, and 12 fixes for CE v3.0. I fail to see why you are demanding a statement from Microsoft stating that they will produce updates when they have given you no reason to believe that they wouldn't.

The platform has only been officially released for less than a month, and the phones themselves for less than 2 weeks. Any update that Microsoft produce will be as a result of feedback from the user community and will take time to collate and produce. Then it has to undergo a LOT of regression testing to make sure the fixes/updates haven't produced any other more serious problems.

I wouldn't expect to see any fixes or updates at all for at least 6 months.

I fail to see how all of the constant griping from people on this forum or the newsgroups can possibly do anything but piss people off. Sure MS and Orange need to be informed of the problems and shortcomings so that they are aware of the problems and can fix them, but constantly moaning about how you're not being supported is not only wrong it's also counter-productive.

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Posted · Report post

Just another User .... 3..5..14..20

AH! Ordinal position of character in alphabet... C E N T. Very good. How about BASE64 encoded ASCII values next time? :D

joel

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Posted · Report post

Hi there...

I agree with your email, and considering that this is a brand new product release, I think it is shocking that there is such a lack of support. I think the feeling I'm getting from the whole Smartphone 2002 thing, is that its rushed.

I've just been looking at the P800's manual ( http://www.p800.it/white%20paper%20ottobre%2002.pdf ). Everything about that phone seems sensible, and intuitive. From the videos that I've seen of it working ( http://translate.google.com/translate?u=ht...nknown&oe=ASCII ) it looks very fast, and doesn't seem to look like crashing...

When I went to play with the phone in the Orange shop, the sales person himself was getting really frustrated with it, and even swore under his breath a few times. He was trying hard to sell it to me, but I was like "Right... it seems to have crashed again".. and he was like "yer... erm.... I'm not sure why it does that?".

I think there was a lot more to the Sendo pull out that we're ever going to know about. The way that in their press release to developers ( http://www.sendo.com/dev/index.asp ) they answer the question about when the Series 60 platform will be relased on the Z100, by almost sounding like the phone was perfect, and they can just load on any software - but they need to see what needs to be adapted before running the new system.....

This says to me that its the software that is the problem... the microsoft part.... And yes, we ALL know about Microsoft releasing patches. Of course they will relase patches.

I would say the difference between Microsoft and Ericsson, is while Ericsson isn't perfect, they take longer to get their products out becuase they test them and make sure there are no problems before they release. (I was phone system administrator for an Ericsson BusinessPhone 250 last year, with all Ericsson DECT handsets and Ericsson admin software)...

So although I've gone at slight tangents to the discussion of the topic, I think in summary:

- we should be asking these questions and getting hard answers. I haven't ever heard this many problems about many other phones that have just been released onto the market, even if this is quite a revolutionary product.

- 6 months isn't realistic. If the phone carries on like this for 6 months, I'm sure there will only be the techno minded people using it. The normal "user", who having used the bullet proof Nokias come over to this buggy phone, will just not accept this phone - they will take it back, say "yes it was nice, but I'd rather have a Nokia that doens't need charging for a week or so, and I can talk for 10 hours a day, and send 10000 txts a day - oh yer, and play snake"!

- Does Microsoft need to support it's users? I can honestly say that since 1994, I've only ever rung Microsoft about 3 times... and each of those times I was told I'd have to pay to have them sort my problem out. The rest of the time I use the internet to find answers to problems, and if I can't find answers there - I just patch the problem. And even when patches are available, its not Microsoft that we'll be going to for support - its Orange that have to support it. Orange is Microsoft's user buffer.

- Are these issues really "new" issues?. This phone will have had to be tested by Orange, and its network people. The sales managers of the various phone shops will all have had a play with this phone weeks ago. The internal engineers and people within Microsoft and Orange would have been playing with this phone - I REALLY can't believe that all these problems have only occured in the 2 weeks since the phone has been released.

I think Sendo were VERY brave in stopping the release of their phone, and perhaps that is something that Orange considered, but held their relationship with Microsoft in much importance than loosing all the money on the quiet passing of the SPV...

-funkyberry-

p.s. before anyone says that I'm slating Orange or technology, I'm VERY technologically open minded, doing a degree in computing, and overdrafts/student loads permitting - I try and be as early-adopter as I can. Its just that I can take a step back.

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Posted · Report post

AH! Ordinal position of character in alphabet... C E N T. Very good. How about BASE64 encoded ASCII values next time? :D

joel

Well ... I am like a dog and leave my mark :(

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Posted · Report post

Er, CodeWallet, included on the SD?!?

P

another £14 to get what I had before for nothing :D

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Posted · Report post

I wouldn't expect to see any fixes or updates at all for at least 6 months.

Not too great that, in 6 months time I imagine there will be quite a few phones with a lot more to offer then a bug free SPV not alone a bug ridden one

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Posted · Report post

yes but in 6 months time, a smartphone running on windows platform would most pron be using the same version software as the latest patches and fixes available for download onto the current SPV's.

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yes but in 6 months time, a smartphone running on windows platform would most pron be using the same version software as the latest patches and fixes available for download onto the current SPV's.

In 6 months time the P800 will make the SPV look like a POS :D

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Posted · Report post

hehe

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Yeah, but the SPV is currently free with a contract, and when the P800 comes out it's gonna be hundreds with a contract. That's more than most people can afford. I look at the competition for the SPV, and it's currently the best out there IMHO. I could wait for the next ones to come out but I can't imagine them being free on a contract for quite a while....and the fact that the SPV is free is a major factor. I don't want to have to pay for my phone so it's my best option for something high tech.

Prices tend to drop around Xmas too, and as the P800 and other rivals are coming out early next year, i can't see the prices coming down for a bit.

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Posted · Report post

Sure, the P800 will probably be better than the SPV. But it'll also cost at least £200 more. As far as I'm concerned, the SPV will remain the most cost effective phone of its type for a long time.

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I don't think people realise that the SPV is a cutting edge phone - the most cutting edge currently avaialble. The 7650 may be quite cutting edge, but it's like a brick, not a phone. It doesn't have a memory card slot or as good specs. My jaw drops when i see the gfx for Links that u could play on the SPV. Nothing comes close to that yet. Yes, OK it may have issues and poor battery life, but that doesn't stop it from being the most advanced phone avialble......and we're getting it for FREE!!!! Probably because Microsoft/Orange want a big take up for the phone. Maybe so they can beta test on people....who knows, but ultimately i don't think I'm going to see a deal like this until next Xmas. The P800 will be amazing when it comes out i'm sure, but I don't think i'll be getting it free until this time next year!

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Hi there...

Regarding prices. Around June-ish, I read a report of an interview with someone from Sendo. They said the price of the Z100 would be about £299. Then the week that they did both the Sendo and the SPV product launches (the SPV one was more publicised, with the microsoft/orange joint presentation and all that), I read a news article that said that the SPV would be originally priced at £179, and would include a camera. It also said the Z100 would be about £200.

Then the SPV was released, and it was £99, with camera...

Then within 2 weeks of the phone being released, you can get it for free!

I don't think it will be that long before the P800 will come down in price. And yes, it will make the SPV look like a toy... but then again, the SPV is rather bloated...

I rekon that on release date the phone will cost £200 on a new contract, £350 for upgrade... but then very quickly it will go down to £150... I don't think it will perhaps be totally free for a few months, but as with nearly all phones, eventually they are all given away for free.

I think I have made my decision up. I'm going to wait and see how much the P800 will cost, and by the time it is released, I'm hoping that Microsoft would have released some service patches, and the certificate thing will be brushed under the carpet, and there will be loads of 3rd part apps.... so that the SPV will actually be a contender to the P800 - and I can have all the stress of working out which one is best for me then....

-funkyberry-

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I think I have made my decision up. I'm going to wait and see how much the P800 will cost, and by the time it is released, I'm hoping that Microsoft would have released some service patches, and the certificate thing will be brushed under the carpet, and there will be loads of 3rd part apps.... so that the SPV will actually be a contender to the P800 - and I can have all the stress of working out which one is best for me then....

Having returned my SPV, and having just had a quick look at the P800 I think I may follow your lead, looks like a nice phone on first impressions :D

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Posted · Report post

So does the SPV

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Yes the SPV does look nice (visually, more so possibly than then P800) and on paper.

In reality the SPV is not as nice as it looked and certainly not worth the £200 it cost me (due to it being an upgrade on a contract :D it's not going to cost me £200.

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On the, "when will updates be available" issue. Updates take time. Do you honestly think Microsoft have a new version of Windows sitting there which will fix all these bugs and they just don't want to release it?

I have no doubt that updates will come, but they won't come out two days after the phone is launched. You've got to allow time for coding and testing from MS and then even more testing from Orange.

Barry

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On the, "when will updates be available" issue. Updates take time. Do you honestly think Microsoft have a new version of Windows sitting there which will fix all these bugs and they just don't want to release it?

I have no doubt that updates will come, but they won't come out two days after the phone is launched. You've got to allow time for coding and testing from MS and then even more testing from Orange.

Barry

I think the problem a lot of people who are taking the phone back have is not just the bugs (I think most people do accept that there will at least be some - particularly early adopters), but the fact that the product doesn't even seem to be finished properly yet and hence (despite the clamouring of the masses for release) the phone should not have been released when it was.

A number of other issues compound many people's disappointment (I know I don't speak for everyone, not even all the disappointed ones) these include:

- Lack of software available at release. The impression had been given that there was lots of stuff available already - and there did appear to be more available pre-release than at release. This is going to change today (or unofficially over the weekend sometime), but it does seem to have been very poorly managed.

- Locking of the phone for homegrown or unsigned software. I know there are arguments for this - but I think a lot of those can be shot down because the XDA and Jornada have not brought any networks down yet, and they allow unsigned apps.

- Beta/demo software that should comprise core-functionality being shipped with the phone (and the lack of an included GPRS counter - on a phone that is reliant on GPRS....?). If these are freely updated soonish then I'm sure it can be forgiven.

I ordered the phone nearly two weeks ago and have actually had it for 10 days. I had my first true hang (as opposed to supreme lag!) this morning while running the Tennis Addict demo (which incidentally is quite good), and the hang required the battery to be taken out to reboot (no buttons were responding for > 10 minutes). Don't know whether it was the phone or Tennis addict causing the problem (but remember that Tennis Addict is signed :twisted: ).

Tommorow is the last day I can take the phone back to be within the 14 days return guarantee and at this stage in it's life, it's not really good enough, so I'm 90 % sure that I will take it back. Maybe when it has matured then I may consider it again, assuming that there isn't something that is more capable at a reasonable price when that happens. I know the P800 is going to cost more, but if it is better then I'm happy to pay more for it when it comes (or even the Nokia 3650 - that will probably be the closest competitor to SPV despite its strange appearance).

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Yes the SPV is a buggy phone and Yes, we have no reason whatsoever to believe MST or Orange will not support it or update it. But this is what is very wrong with this situation (-and I am only paraphrasing others):

1) MSFT and Orange think it is normal for a phone to boot up in minutes and then crash 3 or four times a day. It is not. It may be normal for PC's to do that, but certainly not phones. MSFT should not be in the least surprised for user to clamor for support and fixes, because the product they have launched was far from ready.

2) then again i suspect that it will get there eventually - just be ready to become an unwilling alpha and beta tester for msft. After all, MSFT has NEVER launched a bug free product that was better than the competition, but it has ALWAYS eventually beaten competitors by sheer rote of subsequent releases, fixes and patches (if you doubt this, just look at word vs wordperfect, excel vs 123, echange vs notes or palm vs pocketpc).

So I would like to join the many voices that say to Microsoft/Orange: "We love your product - it has a good price point and useful functionality, but please stand up to the plate and assume your responsibilites: we have paid money and comitted time/resources and we want something that WORKS and not some sorry piece of electronics that is not even as reliable as a 10 year old Nokia."

-cseilern

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