Guest Ollie Posted January 13, 2003 Report Share Posted January 13, 2003 Ok...so part of the reason for getting the SPV is that my minidisc and MP3 player packed up...I needed to update my phone...I needed an organiser and more importantly I travel with my job regularly and can't be carrying all this stuff around as separate units. So last week on a flight I thought I'd get some tunes playing on the SPV...but imagine the reaction of the cabin crew when they see some guy with his mobile on... well they are bound to freak since all mobiles should be switched off. However the SPV comes with this Radio On/Off function which as far as I'm concerned is designed for situations like this. But try explaining that to cabin crew? So my question is this... does anyone know if the SPV is officially "safe" in aircraft with the radio off and if it is am I going to have to hide my playback device next time I fly? Natuarally I wouldn't want to be responsible for downing a 747 on the back of a good tune.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Monolithix [MVP] Posted January 13, 2003 Report Share Posted January 13, 2003 http://www.modaco.com/viewtopic...=doh+hide+plane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NXNM Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 You problem is that stuards often dont understand about the technology and/or are just being a pain in the arse. Its stupid that there is so much fuss over mobiles, unless your on the flight deck theres no problem with interfearence, infact i always use mine on the flight deck, and have never experienced any problems at all. I think my phone interfears with my GPS in my own plane(looses its sat fix), but GPS is only secondary nav and is not intended as primary so its not an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DJHope Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 Thats pretty nice to hear a refreshing opinion from someone who actually knows about this stuff! Its funny to hear people suggest planes will fall out of the sky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Monolithix [MVP] Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 I wish i had my own plane ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AsherUK Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 I wish i had my own plane ;) Yeah... a plane, an SPV and probably has a nice fast sports car too ..... grrr :twisted: ( I need a better job ! :cry: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NXNM Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 No comment on the sports car ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fokkerjet Posted January 26, 2003 Report Share Posted January 26, 2003 Before I add my two penn'orth I will qualify my background by saying that I am an airline pilot flying a passenger jet. In NXNM's post, he stated that he thought it was fine to use a mobile phone on the flight deck although he contradicted himself by saying that the phone actually does interfere with his GPS system. It is true that GPS is never a primary form of navigation but nevertheless, the interference should be an indicator that something is not quite right. In my experience of flying a modern airliner I regularly come across interference from mobile phones. Quite often, if someone has left a phone on, as it acquires or loses the signal (usually at about 5000ft) we can often hear the annoying beep beep-beep beep that can be heard on your telly from time to time. Sometimes it has been known to go on and on and we have no way of cancelling it. This is usually at a very busy time for the drivers, i.e. taking off and landing. Generally I have noted that in the cruise, the phones cause no interference as they have long since given up trying to acquire a weak signal. Remember that a mobile phone works in the Gigahertz range and is very close to microwave frequencies. It has a powerful enough transmitter to transmit over about five miles. Many airliners utilise a Microwave Landing System (MLS) and phones may cause a problem with this equipment. Indeed it was reported that late last year a pilot flying an airliner landing at Manchester had to TWICE break off from his approach as the aircraft experienced autopilot problems as it established on the Instrument Landing System (ILS). This incident was concluded after investigation to have been caused by a passenger's mobile phone in his bag in an overhead locker. Worrying? Even worse was an Airbus A320 jet which had serious control problems where the aircraft made uncontrolled pitching and rolling movements. Bear in mind that this is the sort of jet that you may well go on your holiday to Corfu in...it has 'fly by wire controls', i.e. the control surfaces are only connected to the pilot via a 'black box'. This is where the interference occurred. I will point out that in these cases, both airliners immediately reverted to normal operations the moment the offending phone was switched off. More recently, we have had an update to our 'Before Start' checklist to include the line "Mobile Phones.......OFF". This was done for a reason. So NXNM, if you think it is clever to use a mobile phone in your own plane then that is up to you. If it is a little Cessna, you will probably get away with it. If you were to see just how much electronics are in my aeroplane it would frighten you (it frightens me). And, no, the Stewards are not being a 'pain in the arse' when they tell you to turn your phone off...they are merely doing their job. You are informed at the beginning of the flight that the aircraft is ready for departure and all mobile phones MUST be switched off. If you fail to do exactly that then you run the risk of being in contravention of the Air Navigation Order, Failure to obey the lawful command of an aircraft commander. You have, I am sure, seen the sort of view that Judges take on people brought before them for these offences! Ollie, you were right to ask the question. Strictly speaking the SPV should be OK with the radio switched off, but it is only a press of a button to mistake and the radio is ON maybe without you noticing. If I were you I would not use the SPV on an airliner once the doors are closed as you WILL meet the same questioning from the Cabin Crew...after all they will enforce what they have been told to enforce...you telling them that the radio is off will not wash with them. If you argue with them, you run the risk of at best finding yourself banned from that airline for life (It happens...regularly...our crew can issue "written warnings" to passengers not complying with instructions) or at worst, finding yourself in the clink. If you want to listen to music, I would highly recommend a minidisc player which will cause no interference at all and the only reason you are asked to have it switched off for take off and landing is so you can hear the instructions from the crew if there is an emergency. I hope this clarifies the matter. In short, DON'T DO IT...PLEASE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Will Posted January 26, 2003 Report Share Posted January 26, 2003 Fokkerjet Thanks for your info, are devices using wireless/bluetooth technologies ok to use, I've found that depending on the airline (and which class you are in!) when I ask the steward etc if it's ok to use my laptop. they either say yes or now (most include not when seatbelt lights on..) but with my new laptop, i wonder if the btooth will cause a problem? I don't want to be the pointed at passenger, or the guy in the jail!! :shock: Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DJHope Posted January 26, 2003 Report Share Posted January 26, 2003 Erm...very worrying i herd that they have started putting up better shielding around the cabin though to stop this from happening on fly-by-wire flights is their any truth in that? DJ Hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Izziwizzi Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 Not to disagree with you Fokkerjet, but, if mobile phones were dangerous why are they allowed? Surely if something is potentially so dangerous passengers shouldn't be allowed to have them as hand luggage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sparks1061 Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 Not to disagree with you Fokkerjet, but, if mobile phones were dangerous why are they allowed? Surely if something is potentially so dangerous passengers shouldn't be allowed to have them as hand luggage? Because then it would give you lot even more to moan about when you can't even use your phone while waiting for the plane to board because it's sat in the hold! I really don't see why people get so hot under the collar about this, are you all really so sad that you can't manage without your mobile for the length of the flight? I am curious about one rule which I am happy to comply with but don't understand, Airlines don't allow the use of personal CD players at any time, (Or has that changed) and yet allow the use of laptops which are proberbly fitted with a CD drive ;) or have they just not caught up with that one yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fokkerjet Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 Will, I really would have thought that Bluetooth use during flight would be unacceptable since it uses a radio transmission. I must admit I have never come across the problem, but I would imagine it is along the similar lines to mobile phones, albeit with much less power transmission than a mobile phone in its seek mode. I personally would prefer that it was not used on my flights but it may be possible if the aircraft has a sophisticated In Flight Entertainment system (such as the Boeing 777) as the cabin may well be electronically isolated from the flight deck. I am really not qualified to speculate on whether this is the case. My advice would be to check with the inflight supervisor/purser if you intend using one of these devices or alternatively, save the Bluetooth part of your work until later. Laptops are fine to use as are other types of personal entertainment devices such as PDA's, minidiscs, CD players, walkmans etc. None of these devices are allowed to be used during take off or landing simply because you may well be required to take immediate action on an instruction from the Captain or Cabin Crew. If you are listening to your Moby album at full volume, I doubt you would hear anything! DJHope, again I am not qualified to comment on what you suggest. I don't fly a Fly By Wire aircraft but I certainly have never heard anything to suggest that such shielding of the cabin has been carried out. It could be possible of course...after all in the incident I mentioned, a mobile phone was almost the cause of an accident (it was actually over Paris I believe) so a modification may well have been carried out. I will ask a friend who is a training captain on an Airbus A320 and see if he has heard of this and will get back to you. Izziwizzi, mobile phones are a fact of life today and it is unrealistic to expect everyone to not carry a phone on an aeroplane. If they insisted phones were carried in your hold luggage, you could bet your bottom dollar that 50% of them would be left on and would be seeking a signal from the hold, which is usually surprisingly close to the avionics bay. At least you can be asked to turn your phone off if it is in the overhead locker whilst at 33,000 feet but I doubt you would be too keen on an outside visit to the hold at -56 deg C and 450 kts!! They are perfectly safe to use on an aircraft as long as they are used within the rules. We have absolutely no problem with you using your phone on the ground before the doors are closed when the flight preparations take place, or once the aircraft has parked and the seatbelt signs are switched off. You are instructed via a PA that 'Mobile Phones must be switched off' so if you do not comply then you could theoretically find yourself in contravention of the Air Navigation Order and be prosecuted as such. Basically, once on an aeroplane (certainly a British Registered one) you MUST obey the lawful command of the aircraft commander or you could find yourself in very hot water indeed. Incidentally I heard of an American manufacturer that has developed a small device that will tell if there are any mobile phones active in the cabin...maybe one day this will become prevalent, as Big Brother is watching you! The next thing to come are cameras in the cabin to record everything you do for ease of prosecution. I believe this will be implemented this year. Sparks, I quite agree with you. I regularly see people boarding with their phone clamped to their ear and the same people getting off in the same manner..."hello dear, we are still alive...we made it!" Personally I can't see why people can't just make their calls in the terminal and then just switch their phones off. I can't believe that any phone call is so urgent that you have to make it on board, unless you are going to be 3 hours late, then fair enough. Yes you can use your CD player now, just not for take off and landing nor when the seatbelt signs are illuminated for the reasons I indicated above. Similarly, I can't understand why everyone leaps up before the plane has come to a standstill and then stands stooped under the overhead lockers for the five minutes that it takes to connect the jetbridge! But there you are...there's nowt so queer as folk! It is beyond the scope of this forum I know but it makes me chuckle as I continue to read the paper whilst all around me are breathing each others armpits..incredible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Will Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 Fokkerjet. Thank you for your responses. How true > re:people standing on landing. So NICE to be able to ask these questions, and get a response other than NO! and a hard stare saying don't argue! I will have to work out how to permanently disable the boot up bluetooth Search for devices! I'm not a bird, so i depend on a big metal thing and hopefully a couple of trained guys looking vaguely forward :oops: to do this for me. Keep up the good work, and i hope, beyond hope that you guys up front aren't playing doom/gnuboy etc games too much on the flightdeck!!!:shock: Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fokkerjet Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 Keep up the good work, and i hope, beyond hope that you guys up front aren't playing doom/gnuboy etc games too much on the flightdeck!!! You can count on that...we have an onboard computer which operates just about everything nicknamed the 'Green Gameboy.' It's not as much fun and not nearly as sophisticated as a Gameboy! I can't promise the crossword isn't being done, or there is a bit of background AM music though ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Oakley Posted January 30, 2003 Report Share Posted January 30, 2003 Wired Magazine article on this topic that clarifies the topic somewhat. I (and several of my colleagues in narrow-band communications fields) have been aware for several years of the discrepencies between the points of view held by: - Regulating agencies (FAA,etc.) who err on the side of caution - even without material data to support their findings at best, or are swayed by lobbying efforts of those whom stand to gain from broad restrictions at worse; - Aviation professionals, whom often point to anecdotal data to substantiate their claims; From Wired Magazine - Feb 15, 2001: "The FAA used the findings of the RTCA, an independent aeronautics adviser, to justify the ban, although it leaves enforcement up to the airlines. The RTCA's three studies, published in 1963, 1988 and 1996, say handheld devices (excluding cell phones) should be banned during "critical phases of flight," which the airlines have interpreted as takeoffs and landings. The studies don't include "intentional transmitting devices" such as cell phones and two-way pagers, because the organization did not receive the devices from the cell phone industry, planes from the aviation industry and funding to conduct the study. The RTCA works on a "volunteer basis so we had to rely on these people for the free use" of their equipment, Sheehan said. The FAA recommendation doesn't extend to private jets, which have different rules. The FCC has its own cell-phone ban, but it has nothing to do with airplane safety. The FCC says signals emitted by phones in the air could occupy multiple cell towers on the ground and cause interference with calls on the ground. This interference might even allow analog cell phone users to listen to others' conversations on the ground. However, no study has been conducted to prove this. What's more, the ban does not extend to SprintPCS and AT&T wireless phones because of an FCC "oversight," according to a former FCC engineer. SprintPCS and AT&T wireless phones use a different frequency than other cell phones. The oversight might imply that a user of either phone could use them in flight, but most, if not all, airlines adhere to FAA guidelines and prohibit all mobile phones anyway. "You try to write the rules so that they cover everything," said Dale Hatfield, a former FCC engineer who is now telecommunications program director at the University of Colorado in Boulder. "Since the FAA has its own rules, there's not a lot of pressure to fix that." Airlines generally abide by the FAA's recommendation, but what they don't tell passengers is that no agency -- not even the RTCA -- has come up with definitive evidence of portable electronic devices interfering with a plane's instruments. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xavier Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 Bluetooth occupies the same frequency space as 802.11b - and Lufthansa, Virgin and BA are all in the process of rolling wireless networking out across their aircraft on certain routes, with a view to have the option on all routes by the end of 2004. There's no risk to any FBW systems from such radio technology, and i'd hope that if fokkerjet was a real airline pilot he'd already know that... :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sparks1061 Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 Bluetooth occupies the same frequency space as 802.11b - and Lufthansa, Virgin and BA are all in the process of rolling wireless networking out across their aircraft on certain routes, with a view to have the option on all routes by the end of 2004. There's no risk to any FBW systems from such radio technology, and i'd hope that if fokkerjet was a real airline pilot he'd already know that... :roll: Yes you're quite right, Lufthansa, Virgin and BA are all in the process of rolling it out, and the reason it's taken them so long is they have had to come up with a very low powered version that works within the plane at no risk to the FBW and instruments, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest simonarnell Posted April 27, 2003 Report Share Posted April 27, 2003 Surely its only the on board transmiters that use the lower power. What about the cards that are plugged into the passengers laptops and pda's, surly these are still transmitting at the normal power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Matt Kirby Posted April 27, 2003 Report Share Posted April 27, 2003 Just to add my bit: Jon Honeyball's column in PC Pro May 2003 is all about Lufthansa installing 802.11b base stations in their aircraft, asking: “doesn’t it even slightly annoy you that an airline, and the whole aircraft regulatory world, can just switch its attitude from ‘bad and nasty’ radio waves to ‘lovely shiny wireless network service’ in a trice ?” The chances of a mobile phone bringing down a plane are small, however (as previously mentioned) they can cause interference – why is 802.11b any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FlemmingRiis Posted April 28, 2003 Report Share Posted April 28, 2003 SAS announced last week that they will allow mobile phones in safe mode aka radio off , they mentioned p800 by name and a phone call to then also said that SPV was on the list. But it have yet to be announed if its all flights or how its going to work, but it seems its going in the right direction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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