Guest idavid Posted January 3, 2005 Report Share Posted January 3, 2005 well i have had my jam for a couple of weeks and am loving it. have recently been trialing SPB GPRS Monitor and got a little elert yesterday (while reading a book in mobipocket) that i had exceeded my 300kb per day limit... intrigued i watched the little ticker counting away my GPRS usage while i wasnt using it... :?: i disconnected manually and it stopped but i am pretty worried about this. orange chanrge a damn lot for uding the internet and i cant afford for my phone to randomly use the connection... any ideas on a way to stop my phone using GPRS? usually when it does it i get a little pop up saying its happening and i can stop it, but i did this time. any ideas for a program that canblock its usage and requires me to manually allow it? hummm... :?: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaser81 Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 I read an article about the Windows Mobile 2003 SE OS and apparently Microsoft seems to have decided that WM2003SE doesnt need to disconnect GPRS, so there is no option in the OS to do it once connected. MS seems to be of the opinion that no-one pays for GPRS anymore!! If only! There ARE ways to disconnect GPRS (for example, try to start another connection, then immediately cancel the attempt, this will disconnect the GPRS and is what I normally do). Are there any third party apps to do it easier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TigerNet Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 ...what was it connecting to? I thought that you were only charged for data transferred via GPRS...not the time connected...was it downloading web pages/mail?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idavid Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 it literally appeared to be downloading nothing. checking in running programs internet explorer was open but it wasnt doing anything.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TigerNet Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 ...you shouldn't be charged then I would think...unless the counter itself is using data???!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaser81 Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 This is not a thing specific to the C500 or Imate Jam, but something to do with GPRS and the networks in general. On my old P900, if GPRS was left connected, you could see after several hours that data had been transferred, even if you hadnt done anything. GPRS seems to send these little few-kilobyte packets back and forth by itself every few minutes. Almost like its pinging the connection to keep it alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest olly_k Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 After receiving my last bill, and seeing a £10 data charge when I haven't used my phone for any data other than pass-thru for http://www.modaco.com/viewtopic.php?t=102618>OTA (and yes I checked for the mini-g above signal meter not there) I have deleted ALL connection info from my phone (tip from another user here). I keep checking the data counter which now hasn't budged. Not happy at all about this so I will be talking to Orange shortly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaser81 Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 Not happy at all about this so I will be talking to Orange shortly! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, good luck with that. :) Orange arent very forthcoming with refunds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Samsonite Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 One of my companies products is an industrial GSM modem with GPRS capability (proper IP stack built in and everything) and the GPRS network is completely IP. This could well mean that some types of network connection will send health packets around to maintain connection integrity. I would hazard an educated guess that as the mobile device transfers from cell to cell keeping a connection active, this will incur packets of traffic pinging to and fro. this will be charged for as there is no real way of an application unwrapping the frame to see if its chargeable data or not... ( without some proper processing capability). As a standard action, i knock off the GPRS connection every time i stop playing/using the data functions on my E200. I simply dont trust the phone to say it has stopped sending data, let alone the network! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ianwood Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 I would hazard an educated guess that as the mobile device transfers from cell to cell keeping a connection active, this will incur packets of traffic pinging to and fro. this will be charged for as there is no real way of an application unwrapping the frame to see if its chargeable data or not... ( without some proper processing capability). While you are correct that there will be GPRS connection management traffic, this should be relatively small. Frequent reconnections or frequent hand-offs may increase this traffic but it should still be pretty small. As for the billing, I am pretty sure you are not charged for this type of traffic as it is standard connection management and is not a chargeable service. 2G services have the same type of traffic just not over an IP stack. GPRS billing can easily distinguish this traffic from other chargeable activity. And if the operators were charging for it, they would have to disclose it on your tariff or otherwise get beaten up by Ofcom. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaser81 Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 @ianwood I am pretty sure that the networks DO charge people for network connection traffic. I dont know if it is disclosed in the T's & C's of the contract or not, but I am certain they charge me for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ianwood Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 @ianwood I am pretty sure that the networks DO charge people for network connection traffic. I dont know if it is disclosed in the T's & C's of the contract or not, but I am certain they charge me for it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> All the data services on my bill are shown as either MMS, WAP, Internet, etc. None of these services cover connection (mobility) management. Not all bills are the same but I know that I am not being charged for any connection management. It is my understanding of GPRS (and this goes back some ways so I could easily be wrong) that the MS (the device) creates a PDP context for each service to be used. Only when there is an active PDP session with the GGSN does chargeable traffic flow. Mobility does not use or require a PDP session. Now what could be happening is something is keeping a PDP context active even after its owner releases it (or the owner doesn't release it). This means that applications and services on the device can still use the open IP connection. The resultant traffic is not network updates but rather more likely to be IP routing or application data of some sort. It very much reminds me of the old days of ISDN dial-on-demand routers that when configured incorrectly would keep their lines up because the machines on either end were constantly ping-ponging RIP, NETBIOS, etc. updates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Samsonite Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 (edited) ianwood i'm up for correction on this (till i get to work tomorrow and check with our GPRS guru), but all of the GPRS traffic does have to 'go' via the IP stack. This modem that we sell has to have the IP stack blown into the firmware of the device so that it can packetise the relevant data. As far as i understand, there isnt any snooping or sniffing at either end of the connection to interpret the data type and therefore all data passing thru is chargeable I also am far too cynical to think that any network would be happy to maintain a link for free.... i'll find out more tomorrow and post with the bits i understand! :D Edited January 11, 2005 by Samsonite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaser81 Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 I also am far too cynical to think that any network would be happy to maintain a link for free.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, I know that Vodafone wouldnt pass up an opportunity to bleed more money out of me! :evil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest olly_k Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 @ianwood I am pretty sure that the networks DO charge people for network connection traffic. I dont know if it is disclosed in the T's & C's of the contract or not, but I am certain they charge me for it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hey chaser, I have never noticed a GPRS charge on my bill when I haven't purposefully used GPRS... I don't know if this has anything to to with things but in my case it was for WAP services which as far as I am aware I haven't used because generally it is crap!!! I wander if it is a way for orange to recupe all the money from me since getting a select 500 tarrif :shock: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shanedean Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 I had similar prob with Orange when using my original SPV. They claimed I had used 30Mb over GPRS! When I confronted them and asked them to prove/verify this, they claimed that they couldn't do this. I was therefore forced to pay ( can't remember exactly ) a huge amount. Next step, cancelled contract and moved to T-mobile. Although have now returned to Orange for my M1000. So far no scarey bills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Samsonite Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 i've just had a gas with the GSM/GPRS guru here at work about GPRS packets and chargeable activity... Apparently it is all down to Layer 4 activity and what is known as 'Keep-Alive' information. This requirement is application level driven and will not be interrogated by the base station or any other hardware all the way down the line to the phone. Keep Alive is not the same as keep connected and will be chargeable traffic. The question is whether or not any application allows the user to switch off or configure the keep-alive requests - should they want to. I have no idea as to how often a chat based application will send/request these packets... Hope this contibutes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tubaloopy Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 (edited) There ARE ways to disconnect GPRS (for example, try to start another connection, then immediately cancel the attempt, this will disconnect the GPRS and is what I normally do). Are there any third party apps to do it easier? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> On the XDA IIs/PDA2K holding down the red end call button for a few seconds ends an active GPRS session. Edited February 10, 2005 by tubaloopy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zarquon Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 On my M2000 pressing the red phone twice stops a GPRS connection. You can also tap on the signal icon and tap disconnect. The red phone button did the same on my E100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ianwood Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 This is the perspective from the operators... (I sit in a room with a number of senior ex-operator people [Voda, Orange, 3, T-Mobile] and they all say the same thing.) All GPRS billing is associated with a service (e.g. Internet, WAP, etc.). That's the way it shows up on your bill and that's the way it has to be by law. Ofcom dictates it and all the operators abide by it. No service definition, no bill, no charge. Billing systems are either event driven or packet driven and some are a mix of the two. A rating engine is used to determine the cost associated with a billing event or to determine that a series of packets are associated with one type of event or service. Some services are premium rated, some standard rated, and others zero rated (free). Now, GPRS was designed to be an always on or instant on service. During an active GPRS connection (when your phone indicates a GPRS connection) there are 0 or more billable services using that connection. Now packets are always flowing over an active GPRS connection just like if I turn on my PC and plug in the Ethernet, there will be some IP networking traffic going over the wire even if I don't initiate anything from my end. But, and this is important, basic neworking traffic that is between your handset and the SGSN (your servicing switch) is NOT BILLED. Even some traffic that passes through the GGSN (the services gateway) to let's say the operator's WAP portal may or may not be zero rated depending on your tariff, time of day, promotions, etc. So to sum it up, you are only ever billed for actual services traffic. Network traffic (routing, location update, etc.) IS NOT BILLABLE. So even if you have your GPRS constantly connected, you won't be billed unless there are services that are actively using it. I am very new to PPC so I don't know if the OS generates "service oriented traffic" without my requesting it. I would hope not and assume not. But as we install apps it becomes harder to tell what is happening behind the scenes. So maybe the only way to be sure is to force the GPRS offline. I am not sure that I like that simply because if a service can keep sending or requesting, maybe it can initiate a new connection as well. As an interesting aside, I am bit concerned about my PPC being vulnerable over WiFi because it seems to be essentially wide open. A personal firewall that logged/blocked/allowed processes/apps to access GPRS or WiFi would be very useful indeed. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest it123 Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 The extended ROM on the O2 versions of PPC2003 SE, disconnect GPRS when there is no traffic, not sure what the timeout is. There is an application GB-SOFT Tweak - v02.04.2004 alows you to set the time out on your connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaser81 Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 A personal firewall that logged/blocked/allowed processes/apps to access GPRS or WiFi would be very useful indeed. Ian <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You can get one of these for the PPC free now. Its called Airscanner. Cant be arsed to find the link for it, google it and ye shall find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ianwood Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 You can get one of these for the PPC free now. Its called Airscanner. Cant be arsed to find the link for it, google it and ye shall find. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks for the tip. I shall seek it out. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadFromWales85 Posted February 13, 2005 Report Share Posted February 13, 2005 This morning, I watched my Jam connect to GPRS, and it slowly transferred 100KB of data, at which point I closed the connection. Seconds later it connected again! It did this about 3 times, id been closing the connection with Sbp, but after this, I closed the connection by holding down the end key, and it never came back on :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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