Guest spacemonkey Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 To form an app signing program for freeware SPV development we are considering taking donations and using the Baltimore/Geotrust system of signing. Basically apps would be developed and tested unsigned on "dodgy" phones and then when deemed reasonably bug free (by an appropriate group maybe senior forum members?) they'd be signed for free use by anyone with a locked or unlocked SPV. We'd need £500 to get started which would sign 75 apps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest frankwilliams Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 I will be patenting this idea soon... ;) http://www.modaco.com/viewtopic...highlight=#4268 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Monolithix [MVP] Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 How is this going to be organised? It needs specific rules on which applications can be signed. For example, would a simple (but enjoyable) game such as the snake game on the software forums qualify? Or would they have to be more fully fledged, with more features, such as the myTools application (if it ever gets working). How would developers apply for their software to get signed? Who's company would we use to sign up with Baltimore to get the signatures? Is Paul still willing to coordinate the donation programme? How would developers apply for their software to get signed? I'd certainly like to be part of organising this programme, as it is going to need a lot of organisation imho. It would be of no benefit to me personally at the moment as i have my SPV de-certified, however if Orange do find a way to close the hole i'd like to know there's a reliable way of getting my favourtie apps certified ;) [edit]Why is phpBB constantly copying random chunks of my post :/[/edit] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spacemonkey Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 This poll is mainly aimed at assessing the level of interest in pursueing this option. As to your questions. In my personal opinion: Who decides: I'd like to see a defined commitee of regular posters/readers of this forum making the decision. Apps would certainly need thorough testing before using up signings on them. Yes, simple apps would probably not justify it. For instance the simple snake app that has appeared on the forum, it is straight from the demo apps in the SDK I think (or a demo app somewhere else) so I wouldn't recommend it getting signed. Maybe a more fully featured snake app... Who's Company: I'm sure there are plenty of volunteers. I have a limited company so would happily do this but it's just a case of us finding someone we trust. Who collects the cash: Really the project would need some sort of web space and a defined set of rules to go with it so everyone was aware of what to expect. I think it could work well attached to this forum but at the end of the day, that's Paul's choice as to whether he wants to take on any more. How would developers apply: They would need to provide their app as freeware unsigned. The group would need to decide whether they required open source as well as free or not. The group would then use the app and decide on it's merits. At the end of the day any app that appears free and unsigned is likely to end up on all our phones so we'll know what's around. Before it gets signed we'd need to confirm that the author wanted it signed and given away... maybe need some formal license stuff here just to cover everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neilg Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Yes I would, except I feel we really shouldnt be in this position. Ideally you could give a donation up from to give you entitlement to X amount of applications so you can pick and choose apps later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Monolithix [MVP] Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 That all sounds good, maybe if there are any legal-types reading this we could press-gang them into advise on a license contract, or something similar. Incedentally I've just been looking at the GeoTrust site, the cost is 495 US dollars, which works out at a cool 300 GB pounds. If the interest is high enough I think it we could hold out for and get the next package up. £600 would get us 250 signatures, making them half price effectively. Even if that isn't appropriate, £300 is a far more easier target than £500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spacemonkey Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Oh, even better... the other thing is that I'd hope after the initial outlay you can just buy more signings at the same rate rather than needing a large lump sum each time. The big lump is just to make sure you're commited before they go through all the paperwork I'd guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Monolithix [MVP] Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 And so that Mr Virus coder doesnt have to cough up a measly $3 for one certificate to get his virus working on all devices running SmartPhone OS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shadieb Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Anybody give us a pointer on how I vote for paying for certification? I can't see a way of adding to the Poll. Scrap the above ;) Just found out it appears when you register. Newbie here, only had the SPV a week. Must admit, I love it though. Anybody give us some proper info on how to begin creating apps/games for the SPV? My only knowledge of coding was back in the days of the ZX81 and Speccy :lol: I've tried going through all the messages and know of such sites as www.smartphonedn.com etc. but still at a loss with where to start or what I need, other then the SDK?? Many many thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ajb3000 Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 ok, the majority say they would give £10, there are over 2000 members, so lets say 1/4 of them (feasible?) donated £5 each (considering the majority are willing to give £10), thats £2500. I'd say its easily feasible to get £600. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spacemonkey Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Your estimate of a quarter of the board donating may be a bit enthusiastic but considering we allready have votes for £250 then we can definitely do the 75 signing option probably more. From here it's a case of picking the right people as the project team and the right person as the actual signer. Signing is done involving a hardware key, so not only do we need a limited company but that person would be the ONLY person able to do the signing. This can be worked through amongst the interested parties. There is not necessarily a huge hury at the moment as their isn't much Freeware unsigned available at the moment (games demos are part of a commercial product so don't fall within the likely scope). I would be happy to be the company and signer but I'm not keen on running web space or collecting donations. From a signing point of view I'm always around except when I'm on holiday ;) but equally I'd be happy for anyone else to take up the job. I'm definitely keen to be on the commitee that decides what and when an app should be signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Firaas Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 £285 so far... roll on poll... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spacemonkey Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Big ups to the person who voted for option 5 ;) go free speech (Bill G, we know it was you :lol: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neuronisis Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Just voted for £10. Good idea guys, at least we'll get things done this way!! Some one mentioned above about so many applications/games etc for how much you contribute, just want to say i think this is a pretty good idea. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Monolithix [MVP] Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Neil Enns [MS], i know you're out there ;p Would Paul be willing to provide the additional webspace and bandwidth on modaco? Either that or use some of the money, assuming theres enough donated, to register a doman. My flatmate runs a hosting company and can get a .com with plenty of space and all the frills for £45/month. Thats if we want to reallocate some of the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cseilern Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 I cannot disagree enough with this poll! after all it implicitly supports Orange's app signing policy, something which modaco.com members have almost universally rejected so far (c.f. paul's e-mail to cnet's news.com and the ensuing article published in the 17th) While I respect the choice of the majority, modaco.com members should rally around _either_ a motion rejecting orange app signing _or_ a motion pushing for a mechanism to financially support app signing. Both ideas, however are mutually exclusive! What happened to the modaco.com orange app signing poll? imho, app signing should be banned wholesale! after all, malicious developers can get nasty code onto the orange network via a host of other ways (7650, pocketpc phone, sms, mms, gsm pc card, gprs pc card, etc...), so why would they use a buggy spv to do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spacemonkey Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Just voted for £10. Good idea guys, at least we'll get things done this way!! Some one mentioned above about so many applications/games etc for how much you contribute, just want to say i think this is a pretty good idea. ;) We could do something like that... like £5 gets you one signing of your choice and £10 gets 2. The commitee decides on the excess. Just need some management and some way of controlling the usage. On the otherhand, a locked forum where all donators were allowed to vote. The commitee would put forwards games when they were clean enough or there was sufficient demand and then the forum could vote as to whether that game was ready? Dunno really, I doubt ultimately that there'd be too much conflict over what gets signed as, it's reasonably clear to most people whether a program is useful and useable (bug free) and I'd imagine that we'd want to sign everything developers wanted to hand over as freeware that met these criteria. Going forwards, after the initial outlay, it's like £4 per signed app which I imagine we could easily have enough ongoing donations to keep the thing alive. Realistically I would estimate that over the next couple of months we'll probably see maybe 10-20 freeware apps come out, and that it would hopefully increase from there if the developers got a good reception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Monolithix [MVP] Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 As valid as your comments are, the fact of the matter is certification is there, and i think Orange are more likely to ensure this hole is patched before they get their developer network up and running or even consider removing certification. It would be nice to know that there is a backup for freeware applications developed in this time in case the de-cert mod is "fixed", and would allow us to run this software until Orange get their act together and remove the certification. I believe, from the support indicated in this thread, that the second option you suggest will have to be taken as an interim measure, and is likely to encourage useful, useable applications that the entire smartphone community can use. We didn't chose to havethe certification in the first place. One last point, I was under the impression O don't get any direct revenue from certification applications? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spacemonkey Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 I also agre with some of your points but the fact remains that we have certification. If Orange fixes the security hole I for one will be spending a lot of time trying to find another. What we are doing won't fix the need for developers to have an unlocked phone. As to why going for this option. It is relatively inexpensive at £4/app signed and anything that will help drive interest in this platform is going to be good for the community. I personally want to have a phone with a diverse range of applications available for it and this isn't going to happen unless plenty of developers get behind it. We could wait for Orange to sort out all the issues and either do what you ask or provide a sensible developer program but on the other hand, look at the fact that the phone has been out for several months now and the number of applications available for the phone has almost doubled in the last week since the security was broken. If we can give the rest of community access to the benefits of this then I'm happy to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cseilern Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 monolithix, I agree with you: accepting that app signing is a fact right now needs to be addressed. However, I think showing Orange that modaco.com users are ready to accept app signing as a fact of life is REALLY bad idea, even if it resolves short term issues. I believe Orange will leap at _any_ opportunity to lock down their newtork, and like you, I believe this has nothing to do with revenue streams, but more with security (-I think Orange _dread_ a sensionalist security related headline in a mainstream paper more than anything else). The reason I feel strongly about this is because traditional "controlled" developer communities (Nokia 9110, Psion, Apple, etc...) see innovation stunted or maginalised and eventually wither. Totally "Free" developer communities (Linux, Windows, PocketPC, Palm, etc...) on the other hand, thrive and develop way beyond the original hardware on which it emerged. I will _always_ vote against any form of control by any single party over the free development process (both commercial/shareware and freeware) on any platform. => afaiac, app signinig on Orange is heresy, and I know that if the status quo remains, I will eventually have to switch over to some smart mobile phone which will have far more software options than the SPV (-more likely than not, it will be MS SmartPhone 2002 based, but not an SPV, and probably not on Orange). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Monolithix [MVP] Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Give me 20 mins to get home, and i'll try to form some kind of arguement for that ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ajb3000 Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 I think it would definately generate a lot of publicity for Paul if he hosted it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest casper508 Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 ok, the majority say they would give £10, there are over 2000 members, so lets say 1/4 of them (feasible?) donated £5 each (considering the majority are willing to give £10), thats £2500. I'd say its easily feasible to get £600. 7-10% would be more realistic. As for the account setup, something like Paypal could be a good option. Just link it to a bank account n v r all set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 On the face of I would be prepared to donate £10 to the cause, but first I'd like to see what software is in development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Monolithix [MVP] Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Ok, cseilern, I also agree with you, it wouldn't surprise me if the Orange press office had some say in the security of a Windows based operation system going live on their network, and yes, they should have taken other technologies into consideration before deciding to put application locking on these phones. However that was their desision (sp) and there is no way around it now. You mention that the controlled developer communities dwindle, and those devices are left on the back burner, with little or no development of their potentiallity. In creating this programme it will encourage freeware developers to create software for the SPV and other SmartPhone devices. The developer community will get the initial boost it needs to keep alive the interest in the platform, and its possabilities exploited. Once Orange inevitably find a way to lock down the SPV's on their netowrk again, or at least make them harder to unlock, as I was told by OCS, then any interest we manage to general in the development of SmartPhone apps will be lost, until a new mod is found. However then it may be too late, at least with what we are doing here we have the option to continue to create freeware applications if we lose the ability to run uncertified applications. We also have the infamous developer network to look forward too, hopefully this will be as extensive as the Nokia one that I am subscribed too. Please don't take this the wrong way, i'm not trying to turn this into a flame war, and you are fully entitled to your opinion and act upon it accordingly. I just want to make the SPV and SmartPhone platform as much of a success as it possibly can be, and will support any way that this can be achieved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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