WAR IN IRAN

[Guest fraser]

As the global game of Risk continues, I thought it made sense to make a sister poll for our new conquest.

Personally, I'm 95% sure this is going to happen; I've always figured it was a possibility but after observing the last few months I'm pretty certain now. The build-up is almost exactly the same as the Iraq war propaganda, and will intensify over the next few months as peoples fears are manipulated. It's a nice little "let's make war" playbook they have and they are following it to the letter.

Right now they are at the "let diplomacy take its course" stage, where they pay lip-service to jaw-jaw over war-war and privately plan the war, while they talk of negotiations. Just a month ago it was revealed in leaked memos that the war in Iraq had been set in motion long before we officially made movement to war, and that despite any diplomacy that took place, it was going to go ahead regardless. While we were "waiting for Saddam's response", plans were being drafted on what to do if he did comply fully. The main suggestion was to paint a USA aircraft in UN colours, then have it shot down over Iraq in order to prove agressive tendancies. This was also an option had it been determined that the war was illegal. (determined by those who wanted it, that is!), or had it been proven conclusively (in advance) that there were no WMDs.

Some news articles New Yorker, Washington Post

Some quotes:

A Military Planner confirms we have always been at war with Iran:

[Guest illi]

I am wondering who the hell is the current President of the U.Ass.Eh!!???

[Guest Skeese]

USA is just scared of muslim countries, leave it as that!

[Guest illi]

USA is just scared of muslim countries, leave it as that!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks mate. I will.

[Guest Looby]

Those who are not for us must be against us. ;)

[Guest chucky.egg]

Where's the poll for North Korea?

[Guest genaldar]

We won't attack North Korea. They don't have oil.

Of course I'm waiting for someone to get "serious" and launch nukes at the mideast. Save us the trouble of nation building and let us take all the oil (well sure special suits would be required but it may work). Sadly I bet feasability studies have been done.

[Guest illi]

War is fun! Nice seeing innocent people being tortured,suffer, and die. After all the war is not at our door steps. Who cares!

[Guest genaldar]

War is fun! Nice seeing innocent people being tortured,suffer, and die. After all the war is not at our door steps. Who cares!

It's too bad we in America can't be peaceful like Saddam was. You know torture, secret police, mustard gas. Ahh the gold old days in Iraq, back when a man knew he couldn't march on the street in protest.

Now I'm not saying Iraq was done for the right reasons, but what I am saying is that there were less deaths caused by American and ally soldiers than by Saddam and his government. Of course if you want to blame the deaths of Iraqi's caused by car bombs and what not aimed at the "liberating" soldiers then its probably higher.

What I would like to know is if the US would've gone to the UN requesting that the humanitarian conditions be examined instead of wmds be looked for would everyone (except UK and a few others) condemn possible armed intervention? I doubt it.

But with Iran having a much cleaner humanitarian record than Iraq I don't see any reason to invade that is even remotely defensible. Well the classic oppressive to women argument, but with the lack of large scale internal protests that wouldn't fly. Not that I doubt women may feel oppressed, but from everything I've seen and read about the situation they mostly try to avoid the oppressive laws instead of fighting them (at least since the initial marches after Khomeni took over).

Not that anyone will read this, they'll see I'm an American and disregard me entirely.

[Guest fraser]

War is fun! Nice seeing innocent people being tortured,suffer, and die. After all the war is not at our door steps. Who cares!

That's what annoys me most about 9/11. It was Americas ONLY taste of what it's like to be afraid that you might get bombed by some other country. And they completely freaked out and in fact still are today! Yet when they attack another country, they think that "shock and awe" will work for them!!

It's too bad we in America can't be peaceful like Saddam was. You know torture, secret police, mustard gas. Ahh the gold old days in Iraq, back when a man knew he couldn't march on the street in protest.

Ha ha ha!! That was funny. "Peaceful America". Are we reading the same history books? America has been practicing continous warfare since the end of WW2. You've subverted multiple democracies, installed facist brutal regimes and indescrimately killed in multiple wars. How many times does things like Agent Orange or phosperous need to come up before you see the trend? What was done to Falluja was horrific and our news refuses to touch it. We basically said "leave now" to everyone in the city. Anyone that didn't leave was firebombed to ashes. Some of the pictures are horrific.

The peaceful America exists only in Hollywood. It's propaganda and is in fact government supported. People like Jerry Brukheimer (who make most of the flag waving movies) actually receive help from the goverment. This is why pro-war movies get huge support from the militrary and access to tanks etc, whereas anti-war movies are generally filmed in London studios using cheap soviet tanks painted to look American. Even the recent series of 24 has depictions of torture being used to justifyably get information. Do you not worry about WHY these things are on your TV? Can you not see the lingistic programming used in their speaches? As a history buff with an interest in Nazi Germany, what's going on over your way is terrifying. Seriously, the paraelles are downright scary.

WRT torture etc, what was Abu Graib? You do know that the techniques used were well established torture techiques? You do realise it was CIA interogators running the show? The former commander of the prison (some general in the army) resigned over it all in disgust. And you are still torturing people, or has Guantanamo Bay slipped below your radar?

Now I'm not saying Iraq was done for the right reasons, but what I am saying is that there were less deaths caused by American and ally soldiers than by Saddam and his government.

The Iraqi death tool is now over 100,000 in three years. You guys are way ahead of Saddam in terms of the death rate. If it continues for a couple more years you will over take him. 35,000 of these people are civilians by the way.

What I would like to know is if the US would've gone to the UN requesting that the humanitarian conditions be examined instead of wmds be looked for would everyone (except UK and a few others) condemn possible armed intervention? I doubt it.

Who cares? The US didn't go to the UN to seek approval, they were going to war regardless. Numerous leeked memos and whistle blowers confirm this. It was purely to "follow the process" and mostly to appease Tony Blair. Bush etc wanted to just ignore the UN entirely but it was Blair who insisted on it.

But with Iran having a much cleaner humanitarian record than Iraq I don't see any reason to invade that is even remotely defensible.

Agreed, in fact Iran hasn't attacked another country in over 100 years. However, Iran is a part of the game plan, Iraq was essentially the establishment of a beach-head in the middle east. This is no secret; the details are all on the Project for a New America Centures website. At the head of this group are Cheney and Rumsfeld, as well as Bush Sr. They have been pushing for this for years; they tried it on with Clinton in 1998. When he didn't go along with it they decided to buy the presidency themselves.

Well the classic oppressive to women argument, but with the lack of large scale internal protests that wouldn't fly.

The ironic thing is that much of Iraq is now ruled by Islamic warlords and the old ways have come back. Under Saddam women were enouraged to undertake enducation; despite being ruled by a despot Iraq was pretty progressive. All this is gone and in many villages women aren't even allowed out the house anymore. Covering up faces etc when they are allowed out with an escort etc. Of course, this is never reported on our news. That would be unpatriotic and also bad for ratings. Self-censorship is a bitch.

Also, Saudi Arabia is an ally of ours and they are one of the worst for this. Morality has nothing to do with our selection of allies, it's 100% "can we do business with them?". We'd dispose Mother Tereasa if she got in power, if she were to favour the poor over the corporate.

Don't take my word for it, just look through our lists of former allies. Jesus, the "evil" Taliban were invited to Texas in 1997 to discuss an oil pipeline deal. When this deal went instead to the Argentines only then did we start to hear about their "evil" ways. We've got other allies right now that are far worse!

Not that anyone will read this, they'll see I'm an American and disregard me entirely.

Yup. After 2004 most folk lost all respect for you. Until then I would have given you the benefit of the doubt. Bush/Cheneys asparations weren't well known back then. But after four years of clear asshattery, you voted him in again. So I have no respect for you or anyone who lives in your country whatsoever. I probably never will. I used to admire America greatly and until around 2000 I visited almost every year.

America is going to pay hugely for this. Part of the attraction of the country was "brand America", where it relied on consumer opinion and great PR to spread the American way. Bush has completely destroyed that image and has taken you from one of the most respected countries in the world to one of the most despised. You have no one to blame but yourself.

[Guest Dr Who]

All this is gone and in many villages women aren't even allowed out the house anymore. Covering up faces etc when they are allowed out with an escort etc.

What eternally suprises me is that it is never mentioned that until Emily Pankhurst and her mob the situation was very similar in the UK. It is only 80 years of radical liberalisation that has brought us to the societal position we have regarding women, from the suffrajetes in the 20's to womens lib in the 70's. And then we look down on other cultures for doing exactly the same as we did only a few years ago? We can't expect other cultures to undergo 100 years of revolution overnight. Whenever the 'oppression of women' thing gets trotted out it really depresses me, there are many other equally important issues at stake, they are maybe just less tangible or make a less good photostory that women forced to wear a burkha or hijab.

Ultimately the problem is we have a fundamentalist Christian government on one side and fundamentalist Islamic nations on the other, and if history has shown us one thing it is that religious governments don't take people calling 'god' 'allah' very well, or vice versa.

The US WILL go to war with Iran if the comedy ape has enough time to arrange it before he is thrown out of office, impeached or just plain runs out of time. And North Korea as well.

[Guest fraser]

Well said Dr Who. We are passing our own morals onto another country when we were no better ourselves, even in living memory. Hell, the USA still had segregation in the 60s and 70s and was practicing Eugenics to around the same time. I bet most people don't even know what Eugenics is.

In other news, China is us 100 years ago. They are commissioning something like one new coal powerstation per day. They are having their own industrial revolution right now, it's facinating to watch. And like us, miner deaths and industrial accidents are really common. Polution wise we are in trouble though, and the inevitable demand for gasoline by the chinese is going to drive the prices through the roof. Our food chain is inherently linked to oil through things like four-figure shipping distances and fertilisers. Expect the cost of living in the west to rise dramatically over the next 10-20 years. Might be a good time to invest in local farming again...gotta be better than eating Soylent Green :)

By the way, I believe that the Republicans will win the 2008 election in the US. Bush will have served the maximum two terms in office by then. At this point there will either be a terrorist attack "forcing" him to stay in office, or he will be replaced by someone else in his entourage. Not Cheney though, his past is too dirty to withstand the scrutiny of the presidency. Another option is an attack causing the election to be impossible on the specified day. Under the US constitution there is no provision for holding it another day. He'd remain in office.

Of course, you might say that it would take an idiot for the Democrats to lose 2008. And that's kind of my point; if they couldn't win in 2004 with all that was going on, then they don't stand a chance. The flip-flop thing was comical; if they had ANY brains they would have shown Bush and his "America should NOT be nationbuilding" footage before he got to power.

[Guest Dr Who]

Of course, the Democrats did actually win in 2000................

[Guest illi]

Bush thinks he's god. And there are stupid people who think he's god...

[Guest mcwarre]

If America goes into Iran (it will not invade N.Korea as it has nukes and is mad enough to use them) then they will go in on their own. The US cannot afford it either militarily (Omaha beach will look like a bleeding picnic) or financially as they have serious debt problems.

Their quest for oil leads to Alaska. Maybe they'll invade that.... :)

[Guest Pondrew]

Bush thinks he's god. And there are stupid people who think he's god...

Hmmm. Why does the blind following the blind come to mind... :)

[Guest chrisbpr]

a bit off topic but heres my two pennys worth.

i worked closely with americans for three years & on the whole they have no real understanding about what goes on outside their own state let alone the rest of the world, as i think that its only about 7% of americans that have a passport.

i was in LA about a year ago & was asked what i thought about the war on terror to which i relpied that we ( the british) have been fighting american( NORAID ) backed terriosts ( the IRA ) for years ,as i am old enough to remember the IRA bombing campains of the 70s' .

don't get me wrong i like the usa & as a whole americans , but after 9/11 i think allot of them realized that there is a whole big wide world out there.

[Guest fraser]

I really like them myself. It just gets messy when we talk about politics! :) It's mostly ignorance but don't get me wrong, I know I am ignorant on many things my country has done and kept quiet. The opium wars in China for instance, we don't talk about that. We were baaaaad.

Sorry if I offended anyone earlier by the way, I might have come off a bit strong there. But the behaviour of Bush and the general apathy of the American people makes my blood boil.

[Guest mcwarre]

only about 7% of americans that have a passport.

They get around the need for passports at border control by invading instead :)

[Guest nickcornaglia]

eugenics

(yjĕn

[Guest nickcornaglia]

Political discussion is always messy. Not always in a bad way. It brings about awareness and educates those who choose to listen and speak only when they know what they are talking about.

Without getting too deeply into the conversation...

1) Nukes are a threat to everyone in the world. They're not just pointed at the US. As a matter of fact, other than the few major players...most cant reach the US with their weapons even if they wanted to. Odds are, they'd point them right at you, or Germany, or more likely Israel. And then the screams for help from the US and UN nations will come. Disarming fragile/unstable 2nd or third world countries is in everyone's best interest. Where do you draw the line? I don't know. But I believe it needs to be done. In N.Korea...for sure. In Iran? Maybe, in a more political way. War should not even enter into discussion...but the whole topic is weapons of war, isn't it?

2) It's a crazy business the US GOVERNMENT get's itself into. And a difficult role it plays in world politics. The definition of friends and enemies is blurry at best. It's a big chess game if you ask me. (Great Britain had a sorted history as well wth it past colonies and oppression. They have their own history of Mid-East politics in India and Kuwait, don't they?) It's always a matter of choosing a lesser evil to benefit yourself and the rest of the world in the end. Kuwait is a good example. We paid Iraq to protect Kuwait (and their oil) during the Iran-Iraq war, which was a dispute over Iraqi-Iranian territory lines. When Iraq lost, and later went after Kuwait, we then had to fight them to stop that.

Whenever someone brings up the fact that the US/CIA funded and backed Al Qaeda in the past....They lose sight of the fact the the Soviet Union was the bigger threat at the time. You have to fund these things secretly. The masses dont understand when you openly back a political body that goes against our political beliefs....for the benefit of the greater good. They're not our friends. They were just the lesser of two "evils" at the time.

3)I do think it's funny when I read blanket statements like...

"I like Americans"

"on the whole they have no real understanding about what goes on outside their own state let alone the rest of the world, as i think that its only about 7% of Americans that have a passport"

"They are a warlike people."

One American is differnt from the next. We have multiple political parties ranging from Crazy Conservative to Ultra Liberal. We have a range of social/economic levels ranging from poor and uneducated to wealthy/ivy league.

Lumping everyone into a group is the kind of thinking that brings on war. It's that kind of thinking that the GWB cheerleaders get behind, when they believe we're bombing and shooting 1,000,000 Saddam's and not innocent women and children who have NO political ties to any "evil-doers".

It's not ALL about oil. It's about survival of the world.

I am a proud American. In that I am free to think for myself. I can help to choose my leaders, and also disagree with them when I don't understand what they are doing.

Should we have gone to war with Iraq? No.

Now that we are there, should we help free them from tyranny? Yes.

Should we go to war with ANY country that is not a democracy? No.

Should the US be the international police? Yes.

Should the UK/Europe/Asia be an equal part of that? Yes.

Should we go to war with N Korea to end their nuclear weapon advancement? No, China & Russia should.

Should we attack Iran? No.

Should we try to develop a better relationship with them? Yes.

Should countries around the world stop being so pig-headed and join the international community in an effort toward unified world peace? Yes.

We all have families. American, Iraqi, Iranian, Chinese...whoever. We're all people with the same goal in mind...to live on this planet as long as we can and as happily as we can.

We can all say. This war is bad, or that country is bad, or that leader is nuts, depending or perspective. Solutions are what's important in the end. Not finger pointing.

Anyone have any?

Side Note: As to the 7% passport deal....we live on 1/2 of an entire continent. I have alot of my own country to see before I spend 11+ hours flying to another country with my nose planted in a foreign language dictionary. :)

[Guest nickcornaglia]

Without getting too deeply into the conversation...

:)

[Guest charvel]

That's what annoys me most about 9/11. It was Americas ONLY taste of what it's like to be afraid that you might get bombed by some other country. And they completely freaked out and in fact still are today! Yet when they attack another country, they think that "shock and awe" will work for them!!

Ha ha ha!! That was funny. "Peaceful America". Are we reading the same history books? America has been practicing continous warfare since the end of WW2. You've subverted multiple democracies, installed facist brutal regimes and indescrimately killed in multiple wars. How many times does things like Agent Orange or phosperous need to come up before you see the trend? What was done to Falluja was horrific and our news refuses to touch it. We basically said "leave now" to everyone in the city. Anyone that didn't leave was firebombed to ashes. Some of the pictures are horrific.

The peaceful America exists only in Hollywood. It's propaganda and is in fact government supported. People like Jerry Brukheimer (who make most of the flag waving movies) actually receive help from the goverment. This is why pro-war movies get huge support from the militrary and access to tanks etc, whereas anti-war movies are generally filmed in London studios using cheap soviet tanks painted to look American. Even the recent series of 24 has depictions of torture being used to justifyably get information. Do you not worry about WHY these things are on your TV? Can you not see the lingistic programming used in their speaches? As a history buff with an interest in Nazi Germany, what's going on over your way is terrifying. Seriously, the paraelles are downright scary.

WRT torture etc, what was Abu Graib? You do know that the techniques used were well established torture techiques? You do realise it was CIA interogators running the show? The former commander of the prison (some general in the army) resigned over it all in disgust. And you are still torturing people, or has Guantanamo Bay slipped below your radar?

The Iraqi death tool is now over 100,000 in three years. You guys are way ahead of Saddam in terms of the death rate. If it continues for a couple more years you will over take him. 35,000 of these people are civilians by the way.

Who cares? The US didn't go to the UN to seek approval, they were going to war regardless. Numerous leeked memos and whistle blowers confirm this. It was purely to "follow the process" and mostly to appease Tony Blair. Bush etc wanted to just ignore the UN entirely but it was Blair who insisted on it.

Agreed, in fact Iran hasn't attacked another country in over 100 years. However, Iran is a part of the game plan, Iraq was essentially the establishment of a beach-head in the middle east. This is no secret; the details are all on the Project for a New America Centures website. At the head of this group are Cheney and Rumsfeld, as well as Bush Sr. They have been pushing for this for years; they tried it on with Clinton in 1998. When he didn't go along with it they decided to buy the presidency themselves.

The ironic thing is that much of Iraq is now ruled by Islamic warlords and the old ways have come back. Under Saddam women were enouraged to undertake enducation; despite being ruled by a despot Iraq was pretty progressive. All this is gone and in many villages women aren't even allowed out the house anymore. Covering up faces etc when they are allowed out with an escort etc. Of course, this is never reported on our news. That would be unpatriotic and also bad for ratings. Self-censorship is a bitch.

Also, Saudi Arabia is an ally of ours and they are one of the worst for this. Morality has nothing to do with our selection of allies, it's 100% "can we do business with them?". We'd dispose Mother Tereasa if she got in power, if she were to favour the poor over the corporate.

Don't take my word for it, just look through our lists of former allies. Jesus, the "evil" Taliban were invited to Texas in 1997 to discuss an oil pipeline deal. When this deal went instead to the Argentines only then did we start to hear about their "evil" ways. We've got other allies right now that are far worse!

Yup. After 2004 most folk lost all respect for you. Until then I would have given you the benefit of the doubt. Bush/Cheneys asparations weren't well known back then. But after four years of clear asshattery, you voted him in again. So I have no respect for you or anyone who lives in your country whatsoever. I probably never will. I used to admire America greatly and until around 2000 I visited almost every year.

America is going to pay hugely for this. Part of the attraction of the country was "brand America", where it relied on consumer opinion and great PR to spread the American way. Bush has completely destroyed that image and has taken you from one of the most respected countries in the world to one of the most despised. You have no one to blame but yourself.

I am really shocked at what you have to say, and I think you should educate yourself a little more before condemn an entire nation of people based on the actions of an administration. And, it is quite easy for someones vote to be nocked out, its called the electoral college..maybe you've heard of it or mabye not. For someone who claimes to have visited the U.S. frequently you jump to conclusions pretty fast, and apparently have quite a biased opinion.

[Guest pwest13]

This war is bad, or that country is bad, or that leader is nuts, depending or perspective.

I agree, every leader in the world would have been called insane by someone.

[Guest Rob.P]

Interesting conversation going on, I think the generalisation of Americans is unfair, but unfortunately it's what the rest of the world believes. Unfortunately the US have done a superb job of PR on their own people but not enough external PR.

The Bush regime seems definitely intend on creating an Empire, but as we and the Dutch found out, it's just not feasible, whether your trying it through economic or military or both. One thing that definitely doesn't help the cause is comments like this:

Should the US be the international police? Yes.

That seems to fly in the face of the US democracy ideal, why should the US nominate it's self as lord and protector and hand out slaps if people get out of line, is that not similiar to a dictatorship? Why qualifies the US or any other country as an enforcer.

There was mention earlier about the chinese and their industrial revolution, let's not forget quite a few countries in the Mid East haven't done that yet and that is where some of the problems stem from, we certainly don't help by screwing them out of their oil and to make matters worse we tie it all back to religion.

All religions have extremists (although I haven't come across any buddist extremists yet, so please enlighten me if anyone has any examples).

Hopefully that has fuelled the fire of debate without offending anyone, apologies in advance if it has.

Edited March 9, 2007 by Rob.P