Guest nickcornaglia Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Here are my thoughts: - It is not illegal to change modify and cook your own ROM. It's your phone...do with it what you want. - It should be clearly noted that this behavior is not for everyone, will void warranties, and possibly break your phone. Should also be noted that Modaco is not responsible for problems that may occour. - It's not illegal to describe HOW to do it...information is free. - It should be fine for Modaco to publish this info, how to's as well as free tools. - It should be fine for Modaco to POINT to ROMs and ROM modifications, BUT there are too many that include software that one would need to purchase. THAT is against Modaco policy and thus should be discouraged. - Most ROMs also include copywritten software from manufacturers that is purchased by/written by them to include on THEIR phones or specific phones. Putting an HTC Rom on a Samsung for example would not be cool from HTCs perspective. I believe that... - Teaching about ROM customization is great. - Discussing and providing the tools to do so is great. - Customizing your own ROM is fine...as long as the individual is soley responsible. - Discussing it on the forums is great. - Providing modified ROMs for direct download is not good...especially if they include third-party software. - FORMALLY linking to externally hosted ROMs would ordinarilly be okay IMO...but will get you into trouble in the end (possibly legally). Best to be ambiguous about that. Let users do so, but without MoDaCo or it's agents providing those links personally. And following a set of Rules...No ROMs with stolen software. (That last point is still fuzzy for me...probably the most important and hardest to verify) /me thinks on the topic more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mandt Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 I think it's a logical step for MoDaCo to take Everyone will still visit XDA Devs for 'questionable' stuff, but I am of the opinion MoDaCo would be held back by not discussing, in some form, a bit of ROM tweaking. As long as it stays on the right side of legality and doesn't end up with each thread starting with the words CAUTION, THIS CAN KILL YOUR DEVICE!! what's the harm? Not that I'm saying there's been anything wrong with this site up til now, but I do think It would improve MoDaCo for the better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Confucious Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 I am still of the opinion thet it should all be kept over at xda as there are lots of experts there and you will quickly get Qs about can this be done for my device and about illegal stuff, I don't think we have enough expertese on the subject - apart from Paul, all the others woould rather be allowed to discuss things freely. Rather like I think Mobiholics was straying from what Modaco does best I think this is going where others can do better. Personally I think Modaco should concentrate on what it does best and improve it's core services rather than diversify. Just my oppinion, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nickcornaglia Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Diversify???!! It's all the same topic...best use of our WM Phones. XDA has a more knowledgable userbase on the subject...but try to get help there if you're a noob on ROMs and upgrading. They either dont answer you or scream at you. If XDA could do it...Modaco could do it better. Everyone from XDA for the most part is a modaco member too and probably started here. They only exist because Modaco has rules. Rules that protect the other interests of Modaco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Doctor Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Here are my thoughts: - It is not illegal to change modify and cook your own ROM. It's your phone...do with it what you want. - It should be clearly noted that this behavior is not for everyone, will void warranties, and possibly break your phone. Should also be noted that Modaco is not responsible for problems that may occour. - It's not illegal to describe HOW to do it...information is free. - It should be fine for Modaco to publish this info, how to's as well as free tools. - It should be fine for Modaco to POINT to ROMs and ROM modifications, BUT there are too many that include software that one would need to purchase. THAT is against Modaco policy and thus should be discouraged. - Most ROMs also include copywritten software from manufacturers that is purchased by/written by them to include on THEIR phones or specific phones. Putting an HTC Rom on a Samsung for example would not be cool from HTCs perspective. I believe that... - Teaching about ROM customization is great. - Discussing and providing the tools to do so is great. - Customizing your own ROM is fine...as long as the individual is soley responsible. - Discussing it on the forums is great. - Providing modified ROMs for direct download is not good...especially if they include third-party software. - FORMALLY linking to externally hosted ROMs would ordinarilly be okay IMO...but will get you into trouble in the end (possibly legally). Best to be ambiguous about that. Let users do so, but without MoDaCo or it's agents providing those links personally. And following a set of Rules...No ROMs with stolen software. (That last point is still fuzzy for me...probably the most important and hardest to verify) /me thinks on the topic more. Well said encece. Your second to last point is where Paul and his PPF idea comes in. Linking to ROM's hosted on the official carriers/manufacturers website would be ok as they have made the ROM freely available themselves. Also it's near enough IMPOSSIBLE to put a HTC ROM onto a Samsung :) HTC have one way of doing ROM Upgrades, Samsung have a completely different way of doing it. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nickcornaglia Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 That was a bad example...more like putting an Orange Rom on a comparable HTC non-orange device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Doctor Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 That was a bad example...more like putting an Orange Rom on a comparable HTC non-orange device. Ahhh, got your point now :) But surely if orange make the ROM freely available on their website (ala the M3100 ROM), and you take a backup of your HTC ROM, then there won't be any problems? Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nickcornaglia Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Well to that point...Orange would be providing their ROM only for THEIR customers. They wouldnt want it distributed to the owners of an imate or dopod version of the same phone. Providing that ROM and/or links to it, to non-Orange customers would be illegal. That's the idea I was trying to make on that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nickcornaglia Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 In addition...XDA aren't getting review units or sponsorship in community events. They don't get software to review, nor are they partnered in things like Plus with multiple developers. They aren't alerted to pre-released breaking news, nor invited to private events. Are there any MVPs on XDA? My point is...start to do illegal stuff and providing illegal downloads...you may not have any friends anymore. Discuss, develop, and teach to modify ROMs for personal use. Make a point to distribute or condone distribution...and there may possibly be hell to pay. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest crazyc Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 In addition...XDA aren't getting review units or sponsorship in community events. They don't get software to review, nor are they partnered in things like Plus with multiple developers. They aren't alerted to pre-released breaking news, nor invited to private events. Are there any MVPs on XDA? My point is...start to do illegal stuff and providing illegal downloads...you may not have any friends anymore. Discuss, develop, and teach to modify ROMs for personal use. Make a point to distribute or condone distribution...and there may possibly be hell to pay. :) I still like Paul's suggested approach. I will continue to be a member at a number of sites and peruse them all, however XDA right now (and I mean yesterday/today) seems to have relapsed rather into pointscoring and bitterness between chefs. The developers are still there but in the background, and although Sleuth is doing his best it seems they are being overwhelmed. I need a nice friendly place to come for advice or just chat, where yes you do have to mind your ps and qs. I like that fact. So far the decision to move Black off of XDA appears justified as they are avoiding the issues that are plaguing XDA at the moment and the amtoshpere is better. Modding your ROM seems much better for Modaco than downloading a different ROM and running it. Re the comment about linking to Orange ROMS that are meant for Orange customers - if the ROM is available on the Orange web site with no control over its download then theya re not limiting it to their customers (only support of the ROM). I believe HTC will require verification that you have an HTC model before you can download it, so linking to a version of it after that point would be an issue. Oh what the hell its friday afternoon and I am rambling! Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul (MVP) Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 encece, crazyc, you both seem to have grasped my thoughts exactly. ROMs 'in the MoDaCo way' is exactly what it's all about, not trying to do what XDA-Devs do. My 2 ROM guides give an idea as to the kind of thing that would be cool here... P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Disco Stu Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 I'm with Encece. Seems to me to be a natural progression from what we're already doing. As for moderation issues, I've always had to follow my colleagues' lead on techno-legal matters so I don't see any change here. The limits of what would/ wouldn't be acceptable seem to be pretty clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drblow Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Having read through the subsequent discussion, I think I can see now that the 'Modaco ROM' could be a good addition to the general forum here. It's been a long time since the forum had a really good 'spirit of customisation' thing going on. I guess if we could all start to learn how to cook our own ROMs that would be good fun to be involved in. There certainly is a great lack of innovative PPC customisation going on here & it might be good to get something going. But by my understanding, we still couldn't actually post/download each other's ROMs ... rather just explain how someone else could do the same ... right? I still think that it will lead to some inevitable conflicts of interest, and a great deal of confusion at times over what exactly is & isn't legal. I still don't understand how discussion can be illegal!! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Disco Stu Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 But by my understanding, we still couldn't actually post/download each other's ROMs ... rather just explain how someone else could do the same ... right? I still think that it will lead to some inevitable conflicts of interest, and a great deal of confusion at times over what exactly is & isn't legal. I still don't understand how discussion can be illegal!! :) That's my reading of Paul's intentions and that has always been the case. It might be illegal to advise a Qtek owner on how to obtaiin and install an iMate ROM but this would only be a case of messing about with what you already own. MoDaCo's moderation policy has always had 2 intentions. 1. to prevent software piracy and protect copyrights 2. to discourage members from destroying their phones through messiing with stuff they don't really understand. We all know how badly the ROMs are written and, having mastered the hard/soft reset procedure on my Magician, I'm fascinated by what Paul's been doing with his Touch & Wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Samsonite Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 (edited) I still don't understand how discussion can be illegal!! :) perhaps illegal is too finite a term.. maybe its more akin to the local Womens Institute discussing the latest bombmaking methods. not illegal in the absolute sense but not a million miles miles away from the 'Incitement to Terrorism' legislation... FWIW, i am not likely to cook my own ROM without some form of hands on workshop - maybe at the next gathering there could be a 'How To' done in groups of half a dozen or so that people could see the process of how to manipulate their own devices. Edited June 23, 2007 by Samsonite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MARKUKCOUK Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 perhaps illegal is too finite a term.. maybe its more akin to the local Womens Institute discussing the latest bombmaking methods. not illegal in the absolute sense but not a million miles miles away from the 'Incitement to Terrorism' legislation... FWIW, i am not likely to cook my own ROM without some form of hands on workshop - maybe at the next gathering there could be a 'How To' done in groups of half a dozen or so that people could see the process of how to manipulate their own devices. encece - I'm pretty sure you are wrong, as we will be breaking the EULA/lincencing on WM to decompile it. Whether its ours or not. I think Paul is trying to draw a line in the sand, and, as I don't agree with where the line is, I'm always gonna be against the idea. I don't see how you can say "we'll its illegal but its ok because its good for Modaco people". XDA's roms are amazing pieces of work. They've improved by M3100 no end. How is this different to your mods? I'm not for one minute saying we should link to ROMs - but we should be completely open in terms of discussion - and if people wanna discuss WMBlack, then let them - providing they dont link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Confucious Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 The other reason I am against it is because ROMs are device specific and we just dont have the experts here. I'd prefer the 2 to be kept seperate so Pau; can concentrate on modaco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul (MVP) Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 The other reason I am against it is because ROMs are device specific and we just dont have the experts here. I'd prefer the 2 to be kept seperate so Pau; can concentrate on modaco We don't have the experts here? Not sure that's the case... and besides, beginners become experts, and current experts will talk about their expertise wherever there are appropriate places... P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Confucious Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 My previous post was cut short by my train ariving at my stop! You might be right but to become experts most will want to delve deeper and cross the line. It is, of course, your choice but my personal preference is to keep the two areas completely seperate so people know where they stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MARKUKCOUK Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 I think its all or nothing. Either way, regardless of the number of mods, it will be impossible to impose rule on such a grey area. All full discussion (but no links), or not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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