120 replies to this topic

[PaulOBrien]

Well, i've been holding off posting on this until I had the official HTC party line, and I now do

Firstly, the complaint, which is being managed by http://www.htcclassaction.org/...

HTCClassAction said:

What is this all about?

The latest SmartPhone and PocketPC devices from HTC (High Tech Computing) are supposed to be the most powerful devices on the market. And in theory, they are indeed real powerhouses of mobile technology.

There's a catch though: HTC has neglected to include the necessary drivers needed for the devices to come to their full potential.

What does this mean?

This means our really expensive HTC phones (the TyTN II is about $700) are grossly underperforming. In fact, in many  things, these devices operate even slower than HTC's (and competitors') two years older models - see the videos under navigation for demonstrations, especially the TomTom video (TyTN II vs Magician) is a terrific example.

The drivers (small pieces of software that govern your device's hardware) in question are responsible for all  drawing operations. This means absolutely everything having anything to do with putting something on your screen is affected. This includes normal programs, video playback, games, taking pictures, etcetera. If it's on your screen, it's affected. This makes the devices feel really slow and unresponsive. For more details about this, see the Drivers in detail page.

There is also a problem with the touchscreen driver, which predates the driver issues mentioned above. This issue comes down to your device slowing down to a crawl whenever you touch the screen. This is really apparent when you are playing a video and use an onscreen slider to adjust the volume, for example. When doing this, the video will as good as halt.

Which devices are effected by this?

At the time of this writing, to the best of our knowledge, all HTC devices based on the MSM7200 and MSM7500 chipsets from Qualcomm are affected. None of these devices seem to use the hardware acceleration provided by it's ATi Imageon technology. These devices include, but are not necessarily limited to:

HTC TyTN II (MSM7200), also known as:

• HTC Kaiser
  
• T-Mobile MDA Vario III
  
• AT&T Tilt
  
• Vodafone v1615

HTC Touch Dual (MSM7200), also known as:
    

• HTC Nike

HTC Touch Cruise (MSM7200), also known as:
    

• HTC Polaris

HTC Wings (MSM7200), also known as:
    

• HTC S730

HTC Titan (MSM7500), also known as:
    

Sprint Mogul PPC-6800
Verizon XV6800

HTC Vogue (MSM7500), also known as:
    

HTC Touch P3050 (this is not the normal HTC Touch)
Sprint Touch
Verizon Touch XV6900

HTC Libra (MSM7500), also known as:
    

• HTC S720

HTC Iris (MSM7500), also known as:
    

• HTC S640

And now the HTC response...

HTC said:

HTC is committed to delivering a portfolio of devices that offer a wide variety of communication, connectivity and entertainment functionality.  HTC does not offer dedicated or optimized multimedia devices and can confirm that its Qualcomm MSM7xxx-based devices do not use ATI’s Imageon video acceleration hardware.

HTC believes the overall value of its devices based on their combination of functionality and connectivity exceeds their ability to play or render high-resolution video. These devices do still provide a rich multimedia experience comparable to that of most smartphones and enable a variety of audio and video file formats.

HTC values its customers and the overall online community of mobile device enthusiasts and fans. HTC plans to include video acceleration hardware in future video-centric devices that will enable high-resolution video support.

Discuss

My perspective? The video performance in HTC devices could be a lot better if Imageon support was enabled, providing video acceleration. However, i'm not really sure where the supposed grounds for a class action is. I'm not a lawyer, but my other half is legally trained, and we generally fancy HTC's chances here.

I'd love to see HTC improve video performance on Qualcomm chipset'd devices, but I love my Kaiser anyway. How about you?

P

[chucky.egg]

Er, that sounds like a "P*** off" from HTC, doesn't it?

I don't have an affected device, so can't really comment, but my impression was that it was relatively simple to produce a driver to enable functionality that is already there.  On that basis it seems like an odd reaction - why not do it?  Maybe I'm just too ignorant on these things.

[jimbouk]

I got slated over at xda when I suggested that any attempt at a class action would only make some money for lawyers and waste HTC's time...

One bloke suggested that if he had bought a car and discovered that it was really slow he would sue - I pointed out that a test drive would have illustrated the issue. The response was that you couldnt realistically test a Wm device properly in the store. But my point is if you really want a device to do something for you (like play 3d games) then you test it.

I use my Kaiser as an email client/sat nav/web browser/calendar/phone/occasional camera/IT support tool. I do have some dvd's encoded for my daughters ipod touch that I have saved on the storage card and they are just about watchable (but if I really wanted to watch a movie at home I would use the 42 inch panasonic plasma and away from home I would use my Vaio laptop) and I have some music on the storage card too but I very rarely listen to it. If I wanted to play a proper video game, I would use a console/laptop or even my dauhgters nintendo ds lite.

Seems to me that half of the complainers are only complaining because the chip in the device could do things better if HTC wanted it to and the other half are sad geeks who really want to play their 3d video games instead of actually interacting with the rest of the world.


I love my Kaiser (and wouldnt swap it for an iphone even though the video on iphone is 5 times better)

Edited by jimbouk, 22 January 2008 - 09:41 PM.

[NuShrike]

WELL, sounds like this will be my first and LAST HTC device since HTC just gave a Palm, Inc. response.

As soon as E-TEN unbugs their devices, I'm going there.

Edited by NuShrike, 22 January 2008 - 09:46 PM.

[PaulOBrien]

chucky.egg, on Jan 22 2008, 21:33, said:

Er, that sounds like a "P*** off" from HTC, doesn't it?

Basically

chucky.egg, on Jan 22 2008, 21:33, said:

I don't have an affected device, so can't really comment, but my impression was that it was relatively simple to produce a driver to enable functionality that is already there.  On that basis it seems like an odd reaction - why not do it?  Maybe I'm just too ignorant on these things.

Everything takes time, and chances are that the Imageon driver support work was considered non-trivial, and the time was spent elsewhere doing something else on the device. Define 'relatively simple'

P

[PaulOBrien]

jimbouk, on Jan 22 2008, 21:40, said:

I got slated over at xda when I suggested that any attempt at a class action would only make some money for lawyers and waste HTC's time...

One bloke suggested that if he had bought a car and discovered that it was really slow he would sue - I pointed out that a test drive would have illustrated the issue. The response was that you couldnt realistically test a Wm device properly in the store. But my point is if you really want a device to do something for you (like play 3d games) then you test it.

I use my Kaiser as an email client/sat nav/web browser/calendar/phone/occasional camera/IT support tool. I do have some dvd's encoded for my daughters ipod touch that I have saved on the storage card and they are just about watchable (but if I really wanted to watch a movie at home I would use the 42 inch panasonic plasma and away from home I would use my Vaio laptop) and I have some music on the storage card too but I very rarely listen to it. If I wanted to play a proper video game, I would use a console/laptop or even my dauhgters nintendo ds lite.

Seems to me that half of the complainers are only complaining because the chip in the device could do things better if HTC wanted it to and the other half are sad geeks who really want to play their 3d video games instead of actually interacting with the rest of the world.
I love my Kaiser (and wouldnt swap it for an iphone even though the video on iphone is 5 times better)

Unfortunately some people don't want to hear any opinions other than their own. I'm with you I guess jimbouk, it would be great if the MSM device's chipsets did video better, but at no point did HTC say they were video-accelerated.

Even in the videos highlighting 'scrolling slowness', yes, it's there, but I and many of my Kaiser owning friends / family believe the device provides an acceptable user experience in general use.

P

[PaulOBrien]

NuShrike, on Jan 22 2008, 21:46, said:

WELL, sounds like this will be my first and LAST HTC device since HTC just gave a Palm, Inc. response.

As soon as E-TEN unbugs their devices, I'm going there.

What's a Palm Inc response?

So would you rather have a device with time spent on the radio layer so GPRS works (HTC) or a device with time spent on video drivers and GPRS doesn't work (Eten)? OK, so i'm over-simplifying, but development of a device to a release date has finite timescales, and clearly Imageon support was deemed non-critical.

This post to me seems like a crazy response (IMHO, YMMV etc. etc.)

P

[Looby]

I have owned various HTC devices and think they are innovative and have the best build quality out there. However the issue with the Kaiser seems similar to the S730 Standard Smartphone with the issues of no GPS and poor internal memory reflecting the fact that they are rushing to introduce new devices and are spreading their development costs too widely. This prevents the  current devices from performing to their optimum.  

[PaulOBrien]

In reality the S730 was never pitched by HTC as having GPS, but the memory is an issue, they really should have put 128MB in.

P

[cmgarcia]

Well, I owned the Kaiser for about a week. Just sold it last night, actually. That was my 4th HTC device. Now, I may just have horribly bad luck, but the problems I've experienced with my 8125, 8525's, and Tilt have pretty much turned me off to HTC. The Kaiser was a good device, and I agree with Paul that they never touted the Kaiser as having accelerated video. I did notice a significant difference in playback quality from the 8125/8525 and my Tilt, though. What slightly irked me was that the Kaiser, the successor, the new HTC big dog, could not play video at least on par with its predecessors. I don't think it's unfair for buyers of these devices to assume the video playback would be at least to par with those previous devices. No, HTC never made it out to be a robust video playing device, but it was also sold to myself, as well as many, many others, under the assumption that it could play decent video. I know not everyone has experienced the super low frame-rate, chopped-frame mess that some users have seen, but many devices do play that horribly. Now, I doubt that this class action deal will really get these guys anywhere, but hopefully HTC really does get the point.

[NuShrike]

Paul (MVP), on Jan 22 2008, 15:06, said:

What's a Palm Inc response?

So would you rather have a device with time spent on the radio layer so GPRS works (HTC) or a device with time spent on video drivers and GPRS doesn't work (Eten)? OK, so i'm over-simplifying, but development of a device to a release date has finite timescales, and clearly Imageon support was deemed non-critical.

This post to me seems like a crazy response (IMHO, YMMV etc. etc.)

Palm Inc response is "STFU, we're going to fix it when we feel like it.  When we do, you'll get the fix ONLY on a new device".

I think you've misunderstood the issue as maybe this has grown into.  It's not about Imageon support, it's about having the device perform at least on-par with previous devices.  It's like the Hermes is to XP as the Kaiser is Vista.  Have you seen the TomTom VS video?  TomTom in demo mode on the 8525 outperforms the 8925.  This also feeds into my complaint of the lack of a transflective screen when the working demo 8525 in the local at&t store does have it.

I don't think people really want full Imageon support as much as some native DirectX/DirectDraw drivers.  Right now, it's like running your computer in safe mode all the time by using the most generic drivers possible, and running all operations as software rendered through the CPU.  Have you used your hard drive in PIO mode instead of DMA mode?  Do you remember what it was like to have your 3.5" floppy drive slow your 1GHz machine to a crawl?

It's a perfectly reasonable response when a manufacturer decides they can falsely advertise, and safely ignore consumer complaints.

Edited by NuShrike, 23 January 2008 - 12:57 AM.

[Rush242]

Hey Paul,
  
  Thanks for finally covering the issue in News!! As I said in the TyTN forum, I know  that the chances of an American class action are negligble--no judge  would certify the class.
  
  However, I think the car analogy is right: if they say it has 8  cylinders, its a reasonable assumption to believe that all 8 will be  used to their maximum potential. Not just six because the manufacturer  didn't explicitly *say* they were going to use all eight.
  
  Thanks again.

[Beermaker]

HTC DID promote these products based on the Qualcomm chips and their video acceleration, and this really is leading into an area of legaleeze.

Here's an OFFICIAL press release from HTC:
http://www.htc.com/p...ress-070905.htm

"HTC is the first company to introduce cutting-edge devices based on Qualcomm's latest dual-core chipsets, the Mobile Station Modem™ (MSM™) MSM7500™ and MSM7200™ solutions.....by the end of 2007, HTC will have launched more than 10 devices based on these two dual-core solutions from the Company’s MSM7xxx-series platform. Some of the devices already available include the Mogul by HTC, HTC 6800, HTC 5800 and HTC TyTN II....


The MSM7500 for CDMA2000® 1xEV-DO Rev. A and MSM7200 for HSPA also feature rich multimedia capabilities – such as VGA video encode/decode, 8 megapixel camera, and 3D graphics – as well as advanced data functionality with unsurpassed levels of integration. "

So this really is becoming an issue.

Beermaker

Edited by Beermaker, 23 January 2008 - 06:34 AM.

[Boinng]

I'm one of those that's been busily pointing out that all the car analogies don't work, and the truth is they really don't.  This is the murky and infinitely complex world of software drivers, trying to compare this situation to anything else is inherently disingenuous.

The "I use my Kaiser for calls and email, I have a plasma for video" argument is pretty lame too, it has to be said.  At the end of the day these devices are advertised as having a "rich multimedia experience" and it is perfectly reasonable to expect "the most powerful device you've seen" to be at least as good as its direct predeccessor, and in this case the Tytn II isn't.  Whether that's because of missing drivers, or missing chips, or just plain poor programming is irrelevant.  It's also not relevant if user A chooses not to use the device for video anyway, when users B, C and D all bought the phone for that purpose as much as any other.

I'm sure if you have a 42" plasma, and a Vaio laptop, and every other piece of video-dedicated CE anyone can name, none of this matters to you.  You may even be wondering why you bought a Tytn II, when a Nokia 3210 could probably fulfill the few, minimal needs you have left for a mobile phone.  But for those people that don't have a dedicated device for every whim, and who believed HTC's advertising, this is still a serious issue.

[PaulOBrien]

Beermaker, on Jan 23 2008, 06:28, said:

HTC DID promote these products based on the Qualcomm chips and their video acceleration, and this really is leading into an area of legaleeze.

Here's an OFFICIAL press release from HTC:
http://www.htc.com/p...ress-070905.htm

"HTC is the first company to introduce cutting-edge devices based on Qualcomm's latest dual-core chipsets, the Mobile Station Modem™ (MSM™) MSM7500™ and MSM7200™ solutions.....by the end of 2007, HTC will have launched more than 10 devices based on these two dual-core solutions from the Company’s MSM7xxx-series platform. Some of the devices already available include the Mogul by HTC, HTC 6800, HTC 5800 and HTC TyTN II....
The MSM7500 for CDMA2000® 1xEV-DO Rev. A and MSM7200 for HSPA also feature rich multimedia capabilities – such as VGA video encode/decode, 8 megapixel camera, and 3D graphics – as well as advanced data functionality with unsurpassed levels of integration. "

So this really is becoming an issue.

Beermaker

They're saying what the CHIP can handle. It doesn't have an 8MP camera either, but I dodn't see people launching a class action about that?

P

[NuShrike]

Paul (MVP), on Jan 23 2008, 01:26, said:

They're saying what the CHIP can handle. It doesn't have an 8MP camera either, but I dodn't see people launching a class action about that?

It's about par.  8 is nice, but the 3MP camera is already pretty good and better than most camera phones out there; except the 5MP Nokias.  People are complaining about the plastic lens on the Kaiser is a cop-out for a $900 USD cameraphone.  My $500 Sony CLIE at least had a slide away plastic neutral filter/cover over the 1.3MP camera, and it's about 5 years old.

The problem is the Kaiser is more sluggish than is expected for a device of its class especially versus predecessors.

Since you have the Pantech C810, do you find its interface more responsive than the Kaiser's given that the Pantech is running a smartphone OS?  My experience in the local at&t store was quite shocking...

The most apt analogy I've seen is HTC sold us a car without air in the tires, and they refuse to give us a way to fill it with the reply that we'll get air-filled tires in the next car we buy.  The engine in the Kaiser is pushing pretty well even without the air, but we know it could be better and more efficient.

Edited by NuShrike, 23 January 2008 - 08:48 AM.

[PaulOBrien]

Quote

It's about par. 8 is nice, but the 3MP camera is already pretty good and better than most camera phones out there;

First of all I don't really get 'about par' as a generalisation, clearly this is your own personal perception. There's a bunch of people out there I bet that couldn't care less about video playback, but feel the camera could be better on their '$900 USD cameraphone'.

I really don't get the point of all the car analogies, and I wouldn't say that's a particularly good one, we're all smart enough here to understand the facts. Let's break it down simply...

- The Kaiser and other MSM devices have ATI Imageon in the core chip
- HTC haven't implemented drivers to support this, so it's not used
- HTC feel the overall device experience is acceptable, and as a whole they feel they have a great device
- Some users feel the video performance is not acceptable

I still do not believe the device was mis-sold, I still appreciate that development time has gone into other aspects of the software, I still hope it is improved in later software / hardware revisions but I still think the Kaiser is the best device I own / have ever owned, and am glad I spent my hard-earned on it.

P

[PaulOBrien]

re: the Pantech, it's with a friend atm so couldn't say.

P

[Mysterious Stranger]

While this so-callled 'class action' may well bring this issue to higher level HTC management's attention, you can't force a manufacturer to make a product better remedially unless it's signficantly different to how it was described OR it is rejected en masse by the market as a whole for being substandard compared to equivalent devices available or not fit for purpose. In many markets, what exactly ARE the equivalent devices, especially when operator supplied / branded?

A (co-ordinated?) wave of store returns ( within whatever cooling off period allowed by retailers / networks ) would progress the development of drivers somewhat quicker methinks!

M.S

[Boinng]

I think the crux of the matter is not what hardware/software is or isn't included and for what reason, but simply that the Tytn II is performing significantly less well in the display area than the Tytn I.  There's no way you can read the advertising and find that acceptable - in fact there's no way that's acceptable whatever the advertising says.

The Tytn II has a 400mhz processor - but yet games and video run better on my old Sony Ericsson M600i with a ~200mhz processor.  In fact the Tytn II is comparable to my old SE P910 from 2-3 years ago, with a 150mhz processor and no graphics acceleration of any kind - That's pretty shameful, whichever way you look at it.

Yes, the device is a good phone, and mobile office, and email client, and music player, and a reasonable camera (though that is in part hampered by the same video problem we're discussing here) - but none of those things excuse demonstrably poor performance in another area.  These are multifunction devices and are advertised and priced as such - users are entitled to expect all those functions to work adequately.  The definition of "adequately" might be entirely subjective, but in the absence of any absolute benchmark I'd take a comparison against the Tytn I as a reasonable measure.