Guest fraser Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 I guess the CIA hasn't been able to fly in any "evidence". Either that, or they are setting up for Syria. My moneys on the later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest superkingdave Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 no i think the french saw that saddam was not going to pay them back for the weapons and so they went and took them back sort of like an international repo service. add that to your list of conspiracy theories. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dan.peterson Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 So what do we do? Not being frivolous, but what is the best way to stand against what seems to be the neo conservative agenda? Short of assainating Jeb Bush and waiting it out. One good thing in Britain at least is hopefully we will see some come back from the wager of Blair's political future on Iraq. He already seems to be making his stand against a move on Syria, and it is apparently one of his favorite holiday destinations as well. But the unholly alliance of Rumsvelt (?) and Wolfovitees (stupid names) seems to be in the ascendancy, at least for the moment. So what do we do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest superkingdave Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 the only reason rumsfeld has a job is because having him give press conferences to the media makes bush look like einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob.P Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 the only reason rumsfeld has a job is because having him give press conferences to the media makes bush look like einstein That's not hard though, I've taken dumps with more intelligence than Bush's entire family :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fraser Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 Not being frivolous, but what is the best way to stand against what seems to be the neo conservative agenda? Stop buying American products, it's their corporations that are pushing all this. Try to use as little oil/fuel as possible. Pray that the worlds oil will run out soon. Question everything you hear from them. Read things. Learn more about "unwritten" history, the stuff they don't teach you at school & in movies. Tell your friends/family. Discuss it online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest awarner [MVP] Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 Stop buying American products, it's their corporations that are pushing all this. And the chances of that being a reality? O Remember that when you are sitting on your pc using a US company developed CPU and running US developed software OS etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fraser Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 Yeah, but given a choice, make it. Remember, the yanks make a huge deal about "buying American", so much so that they levy taxes against imports of steel, timber etc. There is a lot of backlash about contracting out IT work to places like India. Play them at their own game. Their econemy is in the shits, ecconomists estimate 10 years until complete meltdown. The current "manoeuvring" is believed to be a part of it, to regenerate their failing econemy. Still won't stop me buying Tex-Mex food though, war or no war, a good chilli is a good chilli. Plus the Simpsons is the business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Ron - No Longer a Mem Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 At last. thr TV is showing REAL crowds of Iraqis. Not, as before, in their dozens, but now in their thousands. Not, however, as the predicted "flag waving crowds gratfully cheering their liberators", but protesting AGAINST the USA's ham-fisted invasion, and deplorable sense of priorities. As always, #1 US priority is the preservation of AMERICAN lives (regardless of the cost in "foreign" lives) and preservation of Iraq's cultural heritage is so low on the list that troops stood by and watched as their museum of antiquities was looted wholesale and then burned. "What the hell... the burned out shell can be cleared and will make a good site for a McDonalds?" I'm now waiting for Rummy and co to find some way to tell us (with a straight face) that the looting is ALL FRANCE'S FAULT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dan.peterson Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 Quote: Â Not being frivolous, but what is the best way to stand against what seems to be the neo conservative agenda? Â Stop buying American products, it's their corporations that are pushing all this. Try to use as little oil/fuel as possible. Pray that the worlds oil will run out soon. Question everything you hear from them. Read things. Learn more about "unwritten" history, the stuff they don't teach you at school & in movies. Tell your friends/family. Discuss it online. That seems to be a stand against consumerism/globalisation tinged with a healthy dose of paranoia, a hint of yearning for a life free of day time TV trivialities. Fair enough perhaps but... Not what I asked for, and not in the least bit relevant or practical. If the anti-war movement- even anti capitalist- (of which I suspect Fraser you are a supporter) is going to captialise on the its support, it has to evolve into a intellectually coherent form. That means -sadly- that not all questions can just be answered with a broadside of anti-US sentiment against any percieved injustice committed by our worlds superpower. incidentally, (and even the Islamic news sites are reporting it as this) Big Ron, they were protesting against further US involvement in their interim administration which is in no "protesting AGAINST the USA's ham-fisted invasion". Obviously very different to marching in support of Saddam. So what do we do? Get out our notebooks and write to our MPs? That takes effort. Maybe I will go and read a book. That will sort it all out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mashkhan Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 Sort of "off topic" but quite funny nonetheless. Check out the following URL http://www.liquidgeneration.com/poptoons/s...damfromiraq.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fraser Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 Dan, it's only recently I've turned against the corporations. It's things like this war that really change your view on things. It's not capitalism I'm against, I don't really have a problem with that specifically. It's the wholesale corruption that annoys me. They don't even seem to be making the effort to pretend that it's not happening. Cheney is still drawing a $1 million per year salary from Haliburton, who get given large contracts with gag orders on the details behind them. Corporations buy polititions with "campaign contributions", which are essentially legitimised bribery. All of them have serious baggage and no one seems to care. Why aren't the press covering this? Because they are doing it as well! Bush has close links to Fox, take a look at their coverage of the war. You talk of writing to your MP? What a waste of time! The marches clearly showed that there was a large body of people against the war. If we really lived in a democracy, this would have led to a proper debate on the subject. Instead, we moved to a system where MPs who did not support the party line we edged out and marginalised. That's the complete opposite of democracy. We are supposed to be "fighting for freedom and democracy". I doubt whether any of our leaders even think about what that means. Oh yes, we are free. Free to do what we are told and think what we are told. We base our decissions on the information we have available to us. That information is tightly controlled and designed to spin us in the right direction. Am I the only one who sees a problem with that? If MPs feel obliged to follow the leader, anything you and I can do is rendered irrelevant. The best you can hope to do is to try and not support the people behind it, by spending your money elsewhere. If you have a better idea of something that is practical or relevant, let me know. I'm open to suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest superkingdave Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 the trouble is fraser you tell me of a government anywhere that you cannot accuse of corruption? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fraser Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 Good point dave, but just because some corruption is inevitable due to human nature, it shouldn't mean that we should just shrug our shoulders and say "whatever...". Especially with how bad it's getting now. We're seriously moving into double-think territory with our ideas of what "freedom and democracy" are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dan.peterson Posted April 17, 2003 Report Share Posted April 17, 2003 Looking at the marches specifically, I think that showed more that one tenth- a large figure yes- were prepared to go on an exciting jaunt thru london on a nice day. Sure they were sincere protest, but look at the swing in public opinion now. The polls are reverse, and the march figures down by over half. -There are a multitude of reasons why the swing, but that is not the point. Democracy is not weakened by the fact that the PM does not slavishly follow the popular sentiment in the country- come on the tabloids have enough power as it is. The US consitution- [i think- any one correct me, cos I am stretching my memory now]- due to the dual representation in the houses, and also the federal/state divide does deliver democracy that is more responsive to public opinion. (the last election being quite a rare event thankfully), and hence as a result there arose the multitude of pressure groups, and lobbiers- all of which can only taint the systems Free to do what we are told and think what we are told. We base our decissions on the information we have available to us. Simple answer- don't. there are a multitude of different sources available to us, through the intenet and through magazines. The only really restrictive press is the tabloids and day time news. Even the "bullish masses" take the sun with a pinch of salt. So what is the problem? We need to take responsiblity for our own actions, grow up and realise how free we are- if we choose to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob.P Posted April 17, 2003 Report Share Posted April 17, 2003 WE NEED TO SWITCH OFF THE BLOODY TV, that's what we need to do. Propaganda wouldn't be so potent if it wasn't for the damn gogle box. Most people seem to have conviently forgotton about the evidence (supposed) that led us to this war. The US administration seems to be skirting over the fact that they have not found any WMD's and are now saying that it was a war to free the Iraqi people, my arse, why is so much emphasis being put on controlling the oil fields then and not protecting the people. The US is gonna do exactly what happened in Afghanistan. They tricked Russia into launching a full assualt on the country smashing it to bits, then left the country with out any support, the vacuum was filled by the Taleban and lo and behold what is happening to Iraqi. The people are in turmoil, the people are looting, there is lawlessness all over and the two different tribal cultures are starting small running battles again. Where's the US? Guarding the oil fields and trying to find someone they can install to run the country that will de-nationalise the oil giving it all to the American oil compaines. Surprise, surprise, the US will then practically own the second largest oil reserve on this planet, which they could quite happily then hold Japan and Europe to ransom with. How far does the corruption go? When will it abate? When will people stop ignoring the fact that just letting things go like this will mean that we are always destined to repeat history rant> *Sigh* Better than having a coffee first thing the morning is a good rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest superkingdave Posted April 17, 2003 Report Share Posted April 17, 2003 if the government acted to public opinion every time there was a high profile murder them we would have the death penalty here but then if you ask people two months down the line they wouldnt want it any more. you have got to have better arguments than "the government isnt listening" maybe next election you should vote for lib dems... oh wait the whole reason they are never taken seriously in terms of government is that they change theyre policies every five minutes to try and reflect public opinionif the government acted to public opinion every time there was a high profile murder them we would have the death penalty here but then if you ask people two months down the line they wouldnt want it any more. you have got to have better arguments than "the government isnt listening" maybe next election you should vote for lib dems... oh wait the whole reason they are never taken seriously in terms of government is that they change theyre policies every five minutes to try and reflect public opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob.P Posted April 17, 2003 Report Share Posted April 17, 2003 As always reptition is the problem. Is a well known fact that governments are governments they will not change, but for the race to get anywhere positive you have to change something, public opinion is a good place to start, more information would help this, we have the communication structure to spread information as far as we like. It doesn't matter who you vote in they will be the same, if you can't change that element then you have to look at what elements you can change. I'm not saying that I think I have all the answers but looking at the bigger picture says to me that the people power cliche still works, you just need to get it in motion, which is hard when the world is becoming increasingly lazy in it's attitude towards life and it's fellow human beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dan.peterson Posted April 17, 2003 Report Share Posted April 17, 2003 down with TV. No advertising, No media focussed politics, No spin, No sensationalist news- no more goddam statues falling down repeatedly. No goddamm talentless singers who look pretty. Who loses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob.P Posted April 17, 2003 Report Share Posted April 17, 2003 No one in my view. Shut the door to the populations brain's, prehaps they might suddenly realise they have one and start using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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