Guest Honest John Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 I have noticed an increasing trend from "regulars" and "addicts" to post replies telling newbies to Search the Forum first before asking a question. The latest such advice was posted recently to someone asking a simple question about the SPVx. Well I did a search and found that, using the Search facility, the member would potentially have had to search through over 600 postings to get the answer! That is the problem about having such a successful Forum. I agree that addicts and regulars who spend vast amount of time reading and posting items on the Forum may very well know where everything is and what has been answered before, but you guys are in the minority and some other readers have a life outside the SPV. I agree that some questions have been asked before, but, hey, some new members may have only joined that week and might only be picking up recent threads, so to have a previously asked question reasked isn't always a bad thing. So, help members by referring them to previously posted information by all means, but save the put downs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bazz Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 This has been covered before. Please search ;-) I agree that in the Beginners section people should be nice. I don't think any topics should be locked or Beginners should be told to search. It's what the beginners section is for! Other sections deserve the full wrath... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ClintEastman Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 I agree with Bazz on this one, although I think there sould be a "Search FAQ's" posted on a global in the main and beginners section. Also paul is working on the exclude list for the search so it sould yield less results... After all, if we let people post new topics at will the forum would come to a grinding holt, without the "New Topics" getting enough replies. And that would be sh!t. :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest awarner [MVP] Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 Another hint would be to post in beginners section just so can get used to the search feature etc also If you do not have any luck put in your post "I have tried to search etc" at least it shows you have tried :) Beginners is as it says and any posts there should be treated as such. Any one posting "try a search" etc could give a link to start others off. as have you ever tried to search for what the request was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Honest John Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 Bazz. Catch22. The people that know don't necessarily read the beginners' section, so the Newbies won't necessarily get their answers. Catch-22a. When in a thread on the Main forum, it is there that you put your follow-up query. By your reply, and I note you are an addict, then you prove the point I am making. The Forum is there to help people with SPVs, not to allow some anoraks who have clocked up many hours and posted a certain number of posts in order to gain some stripes to vent, in your words, their wrath. (Noticed from your previous posts that you seem to be a bit of a frequent venter!). The point I am making is that you shold remember that there are new members who may not be beginners who should not be put down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest awarner [MVP] Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 No one should be put down, they should be guided we were all newbie's once and I know it can be hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Richie M Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 :shock: Run, Mono will be here soon :x I'm outta this thread b4 he starts :shock: (why havent we got a Scared Emoticon?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Will Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 Catch22. The people that know don't necessarily read the beginners' section, so the Newbies won't necessarily get their answers. The mods etc do read beginners, and also the posts in there tend to be answered fairly quickly, a lot of times by other people with low post counts. I have yet to see a problem where people have used the beginners section, and not recieved a 'correct' answer or useful suggestion. The search is a problem, I know!! but then the learning curve with this phone is nearly vertical. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SirGaz Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 I think the big problem is the search. It's OK in it's current form and I know Paul is working on some updates so it will only get better, but it can be a pain. However, it's only bad due to the fact that some people don't search and start another thread. You then get oodles of topics to sift through the next time you search. Catch 22 nowadays, but in the beginning no so much. Yes newbies should be treated with tender loving care but I agree with Bazz, if they post outside of the Beginners section then they should be informed (in a nice way - unless really rattled, been there and bought the t-shirt) that there is a search facility (some don't even know about it) and possibly provide some starting links to help them along. Maybe a good idea would be a couple of notes on how to use the search (and where it's located) and automatically point people to it after they have created a new user. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bazz Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 Bazz. Catch22. The people that know don't necessarily read the beginners' section, so the Newbies won't necessarily get their answers.Actually I, for one, read the Beginners section more than the others, but then I'm nice that way. The beginners section is for Beginners questions and people new to the forum to ask questions without being shouted at. However the regulars read their posts and try to help. I've suggested a few times that people should only be able to post there for their first week or so so that they get used to the etiquette of the forum. It is very frustrating to see the same posts over and over again and it does clog up the board. As I stated that's fine in the Beginners section, but if someone is posting a fresh topic in Main, then I'd expect them to know the forum a little and at least try a search. I agree that follow ups can be more difficult, but haven't really noticed people getting shouldn't at for this. Noticed from your previous posts that you seem to be a bit of a frequent venter! Me? Nooooooo.... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Honest John Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 One rule for newbies and another for refulars? Bazz posted the following under Check your answerphone. " 8 bloody messages I knew nothing about. And the phone keeps crashing. Grrr.... having a bad day with this piece of crap today. The P800 is beckoning... " Unless the Forum is simply to be a rant club, then if he had bothered to use the Search facility, he would have seen that this thread had been previously covered. However, I am too polite to post a reply "Please Search the Forum first" in that thread. NO, F**K it, I will! The words hoist and petard come to mind. :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hax Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 I have to say that I agree with both sides of the story. I can see that for Newbies, there is nothing more frustrating than having a problem, finding somewhere that could potentially provide some help (these forums), asking your question and then being told to bugger off and do a search through the forum. Unfortunately, if they are inexperienced at forming search questions, or if they are not technically minded and therefore unable to search for specific terms and phrases as they do not know them, they are likely to get back some 3000 results, most of which will not help them. However, if they are that inexperienced, they should really be posting into the beginners group. I do feel that comments more constructive than do a search should be offered, or even better, a link to the information required to help start them off. Being helpful like this could in the long run prove beneficial to us all as they might be someone with a wealth of untapped knowledge that they're willing to offer us. Being unhelpful however will just "scare" them away and we'll never know if they've got anything to offer. From the side of the regulars here, I can see how frustrating it is to try wading your way through hundreds of posts each day, many of which are simply duplicating questions or information that has already been posted. It get's hard to find the real content and meat of the forum. From my experience of forums and the like, I find that most people start off in a "lurker" stage where they simply view the forum for a few days/weeks/whatever-they-feel-comfortable-with before posting in order to get to grips with the general look/feel/style of the forum, it's members and what is expected from them and their post. Maybe we should have another stage added to the "rankings", one of lurker, during which time, people can only start new threads in the "Beginners", "For Sale" and "Off-topic" sections - they should be allowed to view and follow-up to threads in all sections. Then when they've completed a probationary period of a couple of weeks or 5 to 10 posts to the forum, they should then be deemed responsible enough to start new threads where ever they feel fit and suffer the abuse and flaming if they get it wrong as they should have gained enough of an understanding of the forums by this point. Just my thoughts - and I'll probably get flamed for them - but hey - life's too short to worry about it :) Hax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Honest John Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 Helpful, Hax. I agree that a beginner starting off a post that has already been posted can be a pain, but an innocent question in the middle of a thread is, I would contend, a different matter. The more meaty subjects tend to appear in the Main and Customisation sections. It is also interesting to see how some of the regulars and addicts have reached their milestones. Just look at some of the assinine posts that have contributed to projecting them from the Newbie state to an enhanced level that bestows the right - in their view - to belittle others who want some help. No doubt I am clocking up points with my replies as well and will reach my brown belt in due course. I have been an avid reader of the Forum since I got the SPV in November but have restricted my posts to genuine queries or comments, rather than some of the non-technical exchanges that some others have done. But frank exchange as well as technical assistance is what Forums are for. I just don't like the superior attitude that some Regulars and above have shown to reasonable queries, including SHOUTING. If you use the facility to look at some of the regular posters entire posts, you will see what I mean. Not all, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spacemonkey Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 I can certainly understand the different points of view here, but at the end of the day, isn't this all just part and parcel of being involved with any forum? Expecially a very popular open to all users forum such as this. A lot of this stuff is just the pain of being in a successful busy forum, but then, that's because it is still good and worthwhile. I try when I see repeat questions to post a link to the right thread and comment that a search function is available (although sometimes I'm probably a bit slack about finding them the threads) and this is about all you can do. When it comes down to it, we all have to make the decision, is this forum still valuable and worth using inspite of the things that may annoy us here. Personally I think it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bazz Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 One rule for newbies and another for refulars? Bazz posted the following under Check your answerphone. " 8 bloody messages I knew nothing about. And the phone keeps crashing. Grrr.... having a bad day with this piece of crap today. The P800 is beckoning... " Unless the Forum is simply to be a rant club, then if he had bothered to use the Search facility, he would have seen that this thread had been previously covered. However, I am too polite to post a reply "Please Search the Forum first" in that thread. NO, F**K it, I will! The words hoist and petard come to mind. :wink: Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Claws out! Well if you'd bother to do a search yourself you would have seen I'd already answered one of those previous posts: http://www.modaco.com/viewtopic.php?t=1465 so I was fully aware of it. I was just re-stating it because I'd not seen this problem since the beginning and presumed it had been resolved when my phone had settled down after the first few days. I could have replied to one of the original topics, but since I'd been caught out so badly I figured it was worth starting a new topic in case others didn't want to read through all the old posts in one of the old topics. I mean if an expert like me can still be caught out with a problem like this then what chance does a Newbie like you have ;-) Maybe I was wrong with the decission to open a new post and if you feel like this then feel free to point this out to me as you have now done - there's no need to be scared. And as for being a "petard", what about starting a post asking people to be polite and then insulting someone in that same topic? As for some of the regulars being short sometimes - that's cause we are human and you know what? Sometimes I'm in a bad mood. It's not fair, it's usually not the poster I'm replying to's fault, but that's life. Barry P.S. The newbie comment was sarcasm before you get yer knickers in a twist again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 I don't want to be a pedant (but from the way this post has started it looks like I am! ;) ) But Bazz, I would suggest looking up what "Petard" refers to - I don't think Honest John was insulting you. How's about "people in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones." That's not quite as high-brow. :) BTW, Honest John, does your name refer to a post WW2 rocket? *EDIT* Plus, I do actually agree with John's point - the whole forum seemed (to me) to be getting a bit snippy and elitist. I hope this isn't a growing trend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bazz Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 D'Oh! Feel embarassed now. Guess I'm not as cultured as I thought I was - I'd never heard of that before. I'll read up on my Hamlet tonight... :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: Sorry, Honest John. I could quickely edit my post, but that's just the chickens way out. I'll leave it as a warning to others :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spacemonkey Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 pe·tard ( P ) Pronunciation Key (p-tärd) n. 1. A small bell-shaped bomb used to breach a gate or wall. 2. A loud firecracker. thanks dictionary.com... further down the page: Word History: The French used pétard, “a loud discharge of intestinal gas,” for a kind of infernal engine for blasting through the gates of a city. “To be hoist by one's own petard,” a now proverbial phrase apparently originating with Shakespeare's Hamlet (around 1604) not long after the word entered English (around 1598), means “to blow oneself up with one's own bomb, be undone by one's own devices.” The French noun pet, “fart,” developed regularly from the Latin noun pditum, from the Indo-European root *pezd-, “fart.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ClintEastman Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 Is this better? http://www.modaco.com/viewtopic...p?p=32656#32656 Maybe if the more popular threads were made sticky, things like software releases and so on it would make it easier for people find what there after, lets face it most of the problem threads are about the same topics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Honest John Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 Didn't mean to pick on Bazz particularly, but I trust that he can see that using his words:- "I could have replied to one of the original topics, but since I'd been caught out so badly I figured it was worth starting a new topic in case others didn't want to read through all the old posts in one of the old topics. " begs the question why that anything previously covered and raised again by a regular is fair game, but if a newbie does it, they are out of line. In fact, Bazz is right in one sense - he is helpful to Newbies in some of his many posts and I am sure they are grateful. I certainly have been grateful for help in the past, although following one thread, later corrected in another, caused my phone to gracefully slide into a period of inactivity. In reply to Stickboy (and he remarks on my pseudonym???!!!???), the only resemblance I have to a WW2 rocket is that I too am absolete, usually off target, belong to another age, haven't yet been fired and will soon need some rigid support to keep me upright. I think that the main points are 1. The Forum is very successful and has lots of threads/topics. 2. It isn't always easy to find a previous topic and the regulars/adicts who have studied all the posts can be really helpful to others, without always making them feel inferior. 3. Are 5 posts on a previously covered topic any worse that 5 posts of a frivalous nature? 4. Any more advanced searching would be advantageous, as would some old pruning, but I am sure we are all conscious of all the free time that the moderators already give to the forum and appreciate it. Now well on the way to becoming a Regular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bazz Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 A final defence of my duplicated post. IMHO there is a difference between posting info a couple of times and in posting the same question a couple of times. Posting a question means you'd like an answer which can take a bit of time so you should have a look to see if it's been answered before (might even be quicker than waiting for an answer), whereas posting info people can choose to ignore it. Plus I was really, really, really frustrated by this this morning. Also I don't think I've shouted too much at others, without at least offering a link most times, and I'm not a mod so it's not that hypocritical ;-) In general I agree that the mods and regulars have been getting more militant (particularly with locking and moving topics) and I don't really agree with it. Don't think I, personally, have been too bad though, except for a couple of posts, but I'll keep an eye on my posts for a bit. I also agree with your points on frivalous comments. Used to really annoy me, particularly when they are blatantly an attempt to change a person's ranking (not wishing to name any names, but one of the mods was particularly guilty of this at the beginning). Who cares about a ranking anyway? I'm personally a bit embarrased about my Addict ranking (need to get more of a life ;-)) and I don't think I've posted too many frivilous comments, certainly not when I first joined. However saying that when you hang around the board a lot you do get to know certain people's styles and the feeling of community is created by some of the frivilous comments. I'd rather have a friendly board than a boring set of instruction manuals. Anyway, it's been an interesting thread that's distracted me from my otherwise dull day at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Syvwlch Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 In a purely frivolous post of the worst sort, I'd like to point out that in modern French, Petard only means firecracker, and by analogy, a joint. So why don't we hoist a few, share them 'round like good chaps? I'm no expert on forums, so I can't compare, but I must say that it's been a pleasure first lurking, then participating in MoDaCo, and that it's made the SPV User Experience much better than otherwise. We've all helped others, newbies or no, we've all sniped a coupla times (oh the foolish things we'll do for a snappy answer), and in the end, the forum seems to get by. If the forum was changing in tone, then Honest John's lancing the boil is prolly a good thing, and we certainly seem to have had a lotta bad air to vent. When the dust settles, we'll be a bit more careful in tone with Newbies, we'll admit that when in a bad mood, it's not THAT hard to ignore those previously-asked questions to let someone else having a better day answer them kindly but firmly. Wow, listen to me drone on... the Petard must be getting to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Monolithix [MVP] Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 Admittedly with the current size of the boards searches are not always productive. When i see a new thread about a topic previously covered i will ~always~ provide a link to the thread or threads that are relevant, and i understand that some members do just blast "SEARCH!!!!" at them and not offer any suggestions, this also needs to be addressed... As for Honest John's point 3; no they aren't, but we have and Off Topic forum for "frivalous" threads Here is how i go about searching for threads: In search i put in the relevant words, eg "decert phone dk update", to find info on how to decert my SPV after applying a Danish update. I will always select "search for all words", or else you ~will~ end up with 3000 hits. Skim over the first page of results and check any that look relevant. If i have no luck i will go back and refine the search by adding removing or altering words (decert or decertify?) and repeat for any combinations that seem relevant. As a last resort i will check over a page or two of an appropriate forum. This will yeild good results for me 95% of the time. I hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chris b.a.r.f. Posted March 7, 2003 Report Share Posted March 7, 2003 I agree that in the Beginners section people should be nice. I don't think any topics should be locked or Beginners should be told to search. It's what the beginners section is for! Other sections deserve the full wrath... That depends on the post, how it's worded and the banality of the question being asked - if people have a specific problem that's already been covered then it's easier for the regulars to do a search for them and supply a link to the correct article - if they supply as much info about the problem as possible. It's the questions like "I can't unlock my SPV" with no other info where I personally tend to refer to a search instead of trying to help out by sorting search results - we can't know what software version the guy has, where he lives, what he's already tried (et cetera) so we can't really help anyway.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Myke Posted March 7, 2003 Report Share Posted March 7, 2003 oo what am i? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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