Guest someone Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 I was just wondering how you British people thinnk about that :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob.P Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 We should be joining Europe, anything to get us away from the US. That and the fact that we are part of old Europe as well so I think we should stick together. This country and it's people could learn a lot from Europeans (prehaps the whole country would chill out a bit more) If we do join the Euro (which I doubt at this time) our economy will take a severe knock, but then that is to be expected as we are in the top ten economies in the world (I forget where we rank), look at Germany, it's economy was bigger than ours and it's taking a knock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest awarner [MVP] Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 I am anti Europe, They dictate to us too much already and as usual we are the only mugs who obay the rules :roll:. How can people like Neil kinnock help to run Europe when the British public did not think him capable of running his own country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob.P Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 I think it's a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea, if we don't side with Europe we will end up being on side with the US, at the moment I'll take Europe as the lesser of 2 evils cause we have more in common. This is another thing about the great british public is that it hates change, yet we can cope with it v.well, just moan alot. The public dealt with decimalisation back in the (errr, memory is failing a bit) 50s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest capt_janeway Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 I am pro-Europe. Unfortunately this country has an island mentality that has restricted us for too long. At the end of the day who is really British - I for one have Celtic and French ancestory. If we don't go with them we will end up using dollars and becoming the 54th (?) US state - and I definitely want nothing to do with Bush!!!! or any other US politician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest awarner [MVP] Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 At the end of the day who is really British Someone who is born in Britain or have claimed citizenship and support Britain in what it does, unless they do something you feel is politicaly stupid :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vadonald Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 I want to be pro-Europe, the idea is good, but the reality is we have another layer of corruption in politics. The EU needs to change, the first thing would be to get rid of the Common Agricultural Policy, it costs us an absolute fortune, AND keeps prices artificially high. Because of this I am anti-Europe, but only anti-what we have now. I can see exactly what Gordon Brown is saying (theres no hope for me now), it would be bad for the UK to go in now. But if we are part of the EU, then we should have the Euro as soon as possible. Some things need to change in our economy, but also I think a lot needs to change in the EU. By the way, Rob.P, decimalisation occured in 1970 / 71, 71 IIRC, when I was about 7 years old, I can remember using the old money :shock: Vince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob.P Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Thanks Vince knew my brain was failing me (obviously by quite a bit) :lol: I think you hit the nail on the head with what you said, I think we should be fully part of Europe but as you said at the moment it's not gonna do us any favours in regards to the economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gorskar Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 hm, I I'm not conviced that having Europe dictating our econemy directly would be entirely beneficial, but i could be pursuaded otherwise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bazz Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 The UK needs to change it's mentality before a fair debate can take place. I'm pro-Europe but I don't think we're having a fair debate at the mo. At the moment it's very much seen as "I don't want to join Europe cause I don't want the Germans telling me what to do" but that's not the point it's not that we surrender to Europe it's that we become part of it: We help make decisions. Germany doesn't set our interest rates - We help decide what's best for Europe. Granted some decisions which are best for Europe may not be best for the UK but we need to decide if these decisions are offset by larger gains in the long run. If so join if not don't join. However we can't decide that if we're too busy see it as a them/us situation. I, personally think we've more to gain from being part of a large European political community than from standing on our own. The British Empire ain't what it was. I don't think much of the sovereigntyissue because I'm not that patriotic though I appreciate that some people are. I disagree that "people fought and died for this country and therefore we shouldn't surrender our sovereignty" - in my opinion people fought and died for a belief in a way of life which was represented by this country. People didn't want countries invading other countries and that's the main reason we've gone to war this decade (last war excluded). Another thing to consider is that the UK is very much part of Europe. Too much for some people's liking and too little for others. As stated I'm in favour of closer bounds (including monetary union). I don't think the UK is strong enough to wield heavy political power long-term on it's own and I worry that we'll see a US/EU led world in the future with the UK being left with the scraps. I also think a united Europe (dare I say federal!) would help even out the power that the US currently wields. I am not anti-US but I do worry about the monopoly position it's in now where it can do what it likes if it wants (not saying it does - that's a whole other argument - just say it's in the position where it's possible). Saying that, I don't think now is the time to join the Euro. The UK is in a strong position economically and Europe, though better recently, is a bit behind. However I'm not sure if we'll ever truely be in a good position to join - there'll always be factors. I say if it is in our long term interests (which I personally believe it is), then bite the bullet and join. I'm not sure what waiting another couple of years will do except maybe bring the public around if the Government start to educate people rather than the tabloids - which is going to take a lot of work. Then again I don't think we should go in if the people aren't behind it (even if I personally believe it's for the best), we live in a democracy so the government need to do what the majority want. If the government think the majority is wrong then it's up to them to prove to everyone why they think what they do. Anyway this are my opinions and as I said at the beginning I think we need to educate everyone on both sides of the argument for a fair debate. There are pros and cons to joining and I think most people in the UK are currently being told the cons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest madu Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 This is one of those debates that I can see becoming a good argument! The funny thing is that as some of you noted it is not a fair debate. There is no right or wrong since mostly Euro or not Euro comes from people's perceptions of totally different things and factors.. I find it funny when for some this boils down to "what face to have on the banknote" (seriously - someone on BBC1 last night... sheer st00pidity) I agree though these points: - extra layer of corruption - formality factor of this whole thing, not practicality or reality - being pro-European rather than pro-US (damn!) - blatant differences of Brits (but then what about FR, DE, IT, Scandinavian states?). I guess this is no big deal end of day. - not best shout as it stands now considering economic side of argument ...but then Britain has always been an European island of conservatives not eager to have changes, though as said - coping well with such, and there will not be a "great" time for Brits to join EU - there's always a deterrent factor and it's gotta be a sacrifice for one thing or another... I am no Brit, but by now know Brits rather well - their values&priorities and from the side can say that for many many people this is in fact a matter of "being a Brit or a European, and I ain't taking that". Fair enough, but there are more important factors... I'd say - not yet, but it is NOW that they need to decide "Let's do it then and then, and this is how we are gonna do this! By changing us&them so and so..." I wasn't gonna write such a long one in fact, full stop now. : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob.P Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Cranking up the political arguement a little... ...we live in a democracy so the government need to do what the majority want. If the government think the majority is wrong then it's up to them to prove to everyone why they think what they do. ... in an ideal world, but since that muppet blair started running the country I'm not so sure the above applies. The one thing I do like about the US government (and it's the only thing) is the ease in which constituients(sp?) can contact their local representative. In the UK the public has less say by way of making the government less friendly to talk to. I agree with the rest of what you said though Bazz, i think this countries attitude is still in the dark ages. I'm not a great patriot, I think religion and nationality are out-dated concepts that cause destruction and death, but that is not going to change anytime soon or fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bazz Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 President Bartlet: You know we forget sometimes, in all the talk about democracy, it's a Republic. People don't make the decisions, they choose the people who make the decisions. Could they do a better job choosing? Yeah. But when you consider the alternatives. . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest capt_janeway Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 About the "British" issue - are the French less French or the Irish less Irish because they no longer have the franc or the punt? Currently our economy is controlled by the dollar so what is the difference? High interest rates, inflation etc are all dictated by the strength of the pound versus the dollar, if we join the Euro we may end up with much more control infact and not less! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest madu Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Hmmm.. Interesting point.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Matt Whitfield Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 The pound / dollar issue is something that is troubling me at the moment (in terms of the Euro currency debate). With the GBP out of the way that leaves the US$ as the main hard currency in the world... on the other hand, with the GBP out of the way, perhaps there is a chance of fighting the US$ on it's own terms with the Euro. There was already some suggestion of trying to Iraqi crude oil prices qutoed in Euros and not US$. Currently the US economy enjoys an artifical boost by having crude oil being traded in US$ across the globe... However I stopped doing economics at A level and was always better at micro than macro - but I think there are some wider economic issues such as international money markets that will effect more than just the UK is the GBP disappears... Not least because there will be less credible currencies to run to if the Euro weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mattbrown Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 i have no probs with the euro but its the fact that we wont be able to have a say on interest rates etc - 1 size fits all policy isnt working at the mo with germany needing interest rates cut and ireland needing increased - we as a culture are far more like USA than europe in the way we do things - you could say the USA is us but about 15 yrs ahead (not meaing everything ie gun culture etc) - the way europeans do things etc is so different, when the pound was decimilized it really lost its glory as with now most world currancies are all decimilized so there is no real difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest superkingdave Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 quite apart from the sentimental and constitutional factors can we discuss the erm anyone? a straight jacket placed on the currency that led to disasters precisely because of economic differences and divergence. given that the euro is a no way back decision( or is it? none of the emu countries have destroyed their mints for their old currencies) can we be sure that there wont be another disaster? the new governer of the bank of england said it would take three hundred years of study before convergence can be guaranteed. what got me was that even though the city test of mr brown is given to be passed the city itself was saying that joining the euro would have at best no effect on it. london is already the biggest euro-dollar exchange centre in the world and they use euros when and if they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brody Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Rule Brittania!!! Keep the pound!!! Ps. Ur title spells BriTish wrong!! And i am too patriotic!! :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DamianJauregui Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 If they had joined the Euro I still wouldn't be able to get Rice Crispies here in Switzerland. Now that is criminal. :D On another note, I also have a place in France and I agree with what was written earlier, it seems that the British are still the only country who follow all the rules and regulations. Germany is getting better though. When I moved to Switzerland I moved from the UK with all my furniture, etc. When I moved a load of it in to France [from Switzerland] they charged us full import duty [even on old clothes, etc.] and then VAT [TVA] at 19%. My Dad used to work as a VAT inspector and he explained to these people that under EU rules they are not allowed to charge VAT, etc. for goods returning to the EU, but the guys just impounded the van until we paid :shock: Now that is the way that some EU members work :evil: With that said, I do like living in France. Good food and wines, and massive houses in the country for less than a nice car... :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Ron - No Longer a Mem Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 The debate has alas been devalued by our rabidly nationalistic tabloid press, with the resullt that too many Britons just don't understand the issues. It's NOT about who's picture will appear on coins, it's about who controls interest rates, money supply and (as a result) our economy. We've already got problems in that what best suits the prosperous SE of England (where the banks and financial institutions are based) is doing daily damage to the north (where what little manufacturing remains) is based. No single set of interest rates - to speed up or slow down the economy - is going to be appropriate for all of Europe: Currently Germany needs an interest rates CUT to boost demand, and Ireland needs an interest rates RISE to help cut demand and slow inflation. But it's the European Central Bank which makes the decisions. I've lived in France and Germany - I speak German well enough to pass for a native of Lower Saxony. So, I'm not exactly Xenophobic. But anyone who's familiar with European life can surely comprehend that we don't even THINK alike? In France, they have a word: "Pistonage". It means that the state builds two "grades" of subsidised housing - one for the poor, and another (rather better!) that's given away as rewards for political favours. Scratch a French politician's back, and you could wind up with a nice appartment overlooking the Bois du Boulogne, at a heavily subsidized rent. In the UK... that would put both you AND the politician involved in gaol. (I used to belong to a debating society that periodically debated against the local "open" prison. T. Dan Smith was their star speaker - doing ten years for swapping holidays for planning permission.) In Hannover, germany, the burghers traditionally promenade through the Herrenhauser Gardens (big park) on Sundays. A road cuts across it, and on Sundays you can watch the Germans queue patiently as they wait for the "green man" to appear at the crossing before they step out - despite the fact that the road sees maybe one car every couple of hours. Two totally DIFFERENT attitudes to law. The Brits have the worst reputation in Europe for "being awkward" about new Euro-laws, while the French will seemingly sign up for ANYTHING that has "European" at the top of the page. But the UK also has the BEST track record in Europe for translating those laws into national legislation - and then enforcing it... and France has one of the worst. It's a matter of "national attitude". Until we reach some kind of consensus on what law (not THE law - just the CONCEPT of law) IS, then turning the EU's membership into a "superstate" is a truly stupid idea. Laws underlie what makes a nation. Twenty odd years back, I campaigned actively for UK entry into the EEC. Removing trade barriers, and closer economic ties made sense. "Harmonisation" - by which a British-made sausage doesn't get peddled in Germany as a rival to their more expensive (and 100% meat!) Bratwurst may make stupid headlines in The Sun, but it also makes some kind of sense. A European ECONOMIC community still seems a good idea - one way to form a block large enough to deter bullying by US economic interests. But a "Single nation"? Composed of dozens of peoples who don't even share the same idea of what "nationhood" means? Absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Damian_demon Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 I hate Europe and I hate the fact that we are even part of the EU, Is it only me or has anyone else noticed that we aren't part of europe, There's a big bit of sea called the channel that splits the two, I have nothing against europeans but I don't want to be one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nickcornaglia Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Cheerio mates! Chip, chip and all that! What's all this anti-US banter, gov'ner? I'm quite fond of the blokes across the pond! We are related after all by heritage as well as language. after all. After I finish my shepard's pie, fish and chips, I'm off to turn on CNN to watch Mr. George Bush banter about the best country in the world! I'd be proud to have American Notes in my pocket while sitting here in my flat! And I'd love Britian to be the FIFTY FIRST state! The queen mum wouldn't mind, old bean! After all, if you pull out a Yank note, George Washington and she look one in the same! And all the old US presidents have wear the same ridiculous wigs as our current barristers and politicians! Chip Chip! Cheerio! Cheers! Sir Nick Cornaglia EDIT: Ooops, I forgot my location shows up here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest awarner [MVP] Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 The queen mum wouldn't mind, old bean! After all, if you pull out a Yank note, George Washington and she look one in the same! Sorry mate not funny :evil: The Queen Mother, (may she rest in peace) was one of the only decent royals we had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DamianJauregui Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 But anyone who's familiar with European life can surely comprehend that we don't even THINK alike? I agree 100% with this and everything else you said Big Ron, I just couldn't get around to write it all in. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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