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T-Mobile Web'n'Walk - Pro Version finally launched

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Use of Voice over Internet Protocol and Messaging over Internet Protocol is prohibited by T-Mobile. If use of either or both of these services is detected T-Mobile may terminate all contracts with the customer and disconnect any SIM cards and/or web

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They just don't like it because it might cut into their voice profits. Greedy asshats!! Ought to be a law against these anti-competitive business practices.

Sorry, "anti-competitive practice"? Who else offers a cheap unlimited data tariff like this? Orange? O2? Vodafone? Three?

I was charged

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Yes, it's 100% anti-competative. It would be like the bus companies breaking your legs so you can't walk anywhere and instead need to pay them for their facilities any time you move about. Sure, that bus service may offer an affordable monthly pass, but it's no good if you can't go from the couch to the bathroom without waiting for a number 2 to come along.

T-mobile want your voice calls as their own revenue rather than someone like Skype coming along and doing it for free. Completely messed up. No different from the anti-internet of the record industry, or the anti-car of the horsedrawn cart industry 100 years. Just another example of a company using the law and legal contracts to artificially enforce an unfair and outdated business practice for as long as is possible.

Nothing new at all:

Some were commercially successful in providing mass transit, until a backlash against these large speedy vehicles resulted in passing laws that self-propelled vehicles on public roads in the United Kingdom must be preceded by a man on foot waving a red flag and blowing a horn. This effectively killed road auto development in the UK for most of the rest of the 19th century, as inventors and engineers shifted their efforts to improvements in railway locomotives. The red flag law was not repealed until 1896.

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Yes, it's 100% anti-competative. It would be like the bus companies breaking your legs so you can't walk anywhere and instead need to pay them for their facilities any time you move about.

Absolutely terrible analogy.

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Absolutely terrible analogy.

All the worse that it came from a user with 1,699 posts so far - I would have expected much better...

But BOTH your posts in this thread so far fraser have been 'poor' offerings, to say the least mate, in terms of any real basis in fact or truth.

99.99% of the membership on here, and the world in general, are singing the praises of T-Mobile's new unlimeted web and walk deals (both normal and pro).

That's not to say there are not several posts about "It's a shame x, y, or z was not included too..."

But to take the view that you have...

It's quite bizarre...

Certainly, none of the other networks have anything remotely approaching it... so please tell us... if these are your views of the network offering something like this, perish the thought, but prey tell, what on earth are your views of those networks not even offering something like this at all? Come on? If you have words of acid for T-Mob, who are at least giving us SOMETHING, what on earth are your words for the rest - dare we even hear them???

Each to their own... But saying that, with this one, its fairly well clear you are ON YOUR OWN too...

Web n Walk...? Absolutely bloody godsend, and in time, I actually believe it will be the very thing that looking back, we can say was responsible for the sea change in the UK Telecoms Mobile Data Market - I don't think it's overstating to even say that!

EDIT:

It's maybe clear from your light-hearted post over at:

http://www.modaco.com/index.php?showtopic=240135&hl=

That you nevertheless, clearly seem to have a HUGE axe to grind with T-Mobile for some reason???

Do you, 'cos if not we are at a loss to understand the barbed comments you personally always throw their way...

Edited by shadamehr

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But BOTH your posts in this thread so far fraser have been 'poor' offerings, to say the least mate, in terms of any real basis in fact or truth.

Web n Walk...? Absolutely bloody godsend, and in time, I actually believe it will be the very thing that looking back, we can say was responsible for the sea change in the UK Telecoms Mobile Data Market - I don't think it's overstating to even say that!

Hear hear. I'm not even waiting to end my contract in Dec, I'm gonna buy it out whenever the Vario II is out. T-Mobiles data tariff is THAT good in my mind.

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Fraser, T-Mobile also have another good reason for not allowing VoIP which is the amount of bandwidth it requires. This could cause instability in the network and cause major problems with a large drain like that.

If I owned or was a director of a mobile telco there is no way I'd allow VoIP, people really think we are being majorly over charged for mobiles but I don't. My current deal is 500mins and 200texts for

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Couldn't agree more with what shadamehr said, and bb and LSmith2485.

Never been interested in Skype myself but now I hear they have a "massaging" version I might take a look..... ;)

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Is the "Pro" bundle supposed to be addable from "My T-mobile" in the same way the consumer version is? Can't see it yet.

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Sorry, not been online in ages, been busy with other things.

The reason that it annoys me is that it's crippling something with great potential. I've watched the net grow from some quite early days and it's only in the last 4 or 5 years that I've really began to "see" what's up ahead instead of regarding it as the mere curiousity I used at Uni. You are talking to someone who used to be shocked that non-tech companies were creating websites! ;) We've all heard the adage about how "the net is going to change everything". In terms of where it's going, I'd say we're are in like the first 15 - 25 % of what it'll become. If we limit things now, we may never get them. Connectivity is the key to doing it. Having access periodically is of limited use but when you are always connected, the options open right up.

Look how long it took to get unmetred internet dial-up in the UK, I think it was NTL that did it. However, they crippled it as well, by auto-disconnecting you every two hours! It was a long while before broadband was affordable/available to all. Personally, I was paying them for a dedicated line, as you had to with an auto-dial connection. So what was their problem? Everyone on the forum knew about the auto-reconnect, I think it's even the default in Windows XP these days.

Internet progress in the UK has definately been hampered by technology companies imposing artificial limits on what you can and cannot do. We are moving into a world where you cannot VHS certain shows on TV, those that can will self-destruct after X days and your purchased music will only play on one or two devices. What is entirely assine about the whole thing is that these restrictions are not natural, they are specifically developed and add to the cost of the device. They add complexity and harm the performance. Example: portable media players that use DRM don't last as long as their alternatives due to the decryption CPU time required. But for some reason, hardly anyone seems bothered about this common trend.

VoIP does not use a lot of bandwidth. It uses similar, if not better, data compression that regular GSM phones use. You can VoIP over a 56k modem, it's not a big deal.

However, the big problem is that VoIP usage might never get outside of a few, limited environments. It relies on what's been given the buzzword "presence". A mobile phone is great at this; provided it's turned on and in range, it's available for a call. The mobile networks don't want to lose this huge advantage. With VoIP, you need to sign on. All of the "smart home" technologies (which Microsoft is heavilly involved in) take care of this automatically. You have some sort of system that lets exchange know to route the calls to your home or office. All this is out there and it's working fine and dandy, in fact some of the IP phones geek me right out. However, the missing link is when you are out and about. VoIP is essentially a glorified landline at the moment, and it doesn't really offer much over a traditional landline. Some get savings on international calls, but the cost of setup offsets that for all but heavy ysers. Imagine an affordable system like Microsoft's PUSH email system, but with VoIP working on your phone. Your calls would be able to be routed to you anywhere. VoIP might just take off in consumer-land and WE will all benefit from free calls, anywhere in the world, anytime. Technologically we have everything we need right now to build this.

I have nothing against T-mobile, and I don't recall discussing them much in the past other than this thread. The web'n'walk deal is pretty much the best thing going for GPRS at the minute. However, it's a bit lame that you cannot do what you want with it, reasonable usage excluded. And that's the rub; my ISP will kick you off of throttle you if you use too much bandwidth. And that is fair, as you do share the resource with your neighbours. However, they don't stipulate on what you can and can't use (within reason). You can use your "allowance" (it's not metered as such) to download trailers, music, video streams. Or a little VoIP.

T-mobile have every right to kick off heavy bandwidth users. But banning VoIP outright is nonsense.

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If you read the threads on the non Pro version of W'n'W someone (sorry, I've forgotten who it was) explained in great detail the technical reasons why VOIP over GPRS is a BAD thing. It hogs all the slots meaning no one else can make phone calls. When everyone is using 3G or later then it won't matterbut all the time the majority are using GPRS the providers will not let you use VOIP for very good resons.

There are always going to be things people want that aren't provided but before you slang them off why don't you read the other thread and learn why they don't. I don't have time to find the link now but if you can't find it let me know and I'll dig it out later.

[Edit] Sorry Fraser, not having a go at you - artificial barriers get my back up as well, but in this case T actually have a very good reason for doing what they do and, in fact, have gone far further than most people expected.[/Edit]

Edited by Confucious

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Interesting subject and replies, it seems to me the T-Mobile unlimited data access is a very good deal, good enough to probably sway me from my Orange Contract in a few months. T-mobile are very well set up for Wi -Fi here and in Europe. Orange and Wanadoo are now joining forces to maybe counter act this threat. The point of this and what concerns me is whether we are getting into a surfing- style as with the Utility Companies so when T- Mobile has poached Orange's customers they increase the tarrifs and then Orange offer a better deal and off we go again. Any thoughts? ;)

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Interesting subject and replies, it seems to me the T-Mobile unlimited data access is a very good deal, good enough to probably sway me from my Orange Contract in a few months. T-mobile are very well set up for Wi -Fi here and in Europe. Orange and Wanadoo are now joining forces to maybe counter act this threat. The point of this and what concerns me is whether we are getting into a surfing- style as with the Utility Companies so when T- Mobile has poached Orange's customers they increase the tarrifs and then Orange offer a better deal and off we go again. Any thoughts? ;)

That's what competition is all about, the nice thing is that as a consumer you are protected, you've signed a contract which binds you to a supplier for 12 or 18 months, but it also binds them to you at the tarrifs you signed up to. If they stick up the prices you are within you rights to call breach of contract a leave them for someone else if there is a better deal going elsewhere. Quite a few people did this with three recently when they changed their terms to put up out of bundle costs, even if you had never gone over your limits you could just say that you've had enough of them and leave. But as Confucious says (no pun intended), I've got a great deal with t-mobile (exactly the same one as Confucious) and will probably stick with it until I can't do without the latest phone on the market (altough the MDA pro will keep me happy for a while)

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Sorry Fraser, not having a go at you - artificial barriers get my back up as well, but in this case T actually have a very good reason for doing what they do and, in fact, have gone far further than most people expected.

Oh they have a GREAT reason. Here's Rob Langton, T-Mobile UK's data marketing manager, to explain:

Such high speeds would seem to make the new data card ideal for applications such as Internet telephony and instant messaging. However, the fine print for Web'n'Walk Pro reveals that these are explicitly banned by T-Mobile, and any user caught running the applications risks expulsion from the network.

"It's a commercial decision that we took," admitted Langton. "We charge two and a half times less than our competition. We're aiming at the business network. We spoke to our customers and it's not key to them," he told ZDNet UK last week.

Sorry for dredging this topic up again, I was happy to let it lie but this happened to be in todays news with a direct quote from T-Mobile. Later in the same article:

Tony Lock, chief analyst at Bloor Research, believes that the launch of a T-Mobile VoIP client is a possibility.

"T-Mobile has its own VoIP solution that I suspect it'll be bringing out," he told ZDNet UK on Monday.

Source. This was always the case. Why ban instant messaging, which uses near-zero bandwidth? Because that would impact SMS income, which is already pure profit.

Oh, and finally, BT is investing heavilly in replacing their entire PSTN network with VoIP.. Their annual turnover is in the region of 1 billion, yet they are spending upwards of 10 billion to implement this before 2008.

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FYI I called up T-mobile CS a couple of hours ago and got my Web'n'Walk consumer version changed to 'pro' on the SIM only tariff.

Well they are both active at the moment since the consumer bundle isn't cancelled straight away.

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they haven't banned messaging only MOIP - an upcoming technology that isn't used at the moment. VOIP and MOIP are fine over UMTS but not over GPRS and as they can't distinguish they had to ban them.

To allow VOIP over GPRS would degrade the service to much for voice users.

at least tht's my understanding....

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It is interesting that they haven't banned P2P or streaming on the pro package which would presumably have a similar if not greater impact than VOIP.

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You mean p2p is allowed on the pro version? That must be an omission on the contract rather than by design. p2p kills your upstream, and that's the big bottleneck in most consumer IP services. If they have genuine concerns about heavy users inpacting other customers, p2p would be the first thing to go.

Streaming is an interesting one. That's how the service is being marketed usually. "Watch video, listen to music on your phone" they say. Streaming is now an integral part of internet access; most people use it every day without realising it.

Note that streaming videos is encouraged on other networks where you are charged by the kilobyte. Funny that...

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You mean p2p is allowed on the pro version? That must be an omission on the contract rather than by design. p2p kills your upstream, and that's the big bottleneck in most consumer IP services. If they have genuine concerns about heavy users inpacting other customers, p2p would be the first thing to go.

Streaming is an interesting one. That's how the service is being marketed usually. "Watch video, listen to music on your phone" they say. Streaming is now an integral part of internet access; most people use it every day without realising it.

Well P2P (and streaming) is explicitly banned on the consumer version but not the pro version.

The consumer version doesn't mention a ban on "Messaging over Internet Protocol".

Just to add to the confusion here's an article that could be take to mean that MOIP does mean IM.

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I'm struggling to understand how a service marketed as 'unlimited' can also have a 2Gb 'fair usage' limit. I can see the issue for the business and I'm sure 2Gb is more than most people will use in a month, but surely it's false advertising?

Gaz

BTW would the 'no VOIP' clause be more akin to the bus company stopping you from attaching a tow rope to the back of their bus and pulling your car along for free?

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BTW would the 'no VOIP' clause be more akin to the bus company stopping you from attaching a tow rope to the back of their bus and pulling your car along for free?

I think that a better analogy would be if you were a milkman and used the bus to deliver your milk instead of a milk float. You would be quite happy but the other users on the bus might get a bit upset after they realised that you doing the milk round means that they might just as well have walked in the first place. Its not so much that you are getting a free ride, more that you would be ruining things for everyone else.

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Bad analogy. If the milkman is causing problems on the bus carrying milk, should we ban the mother with the pushchair? How about the art student with the A3 sized folder? Just because you get extra benefit that others don't have, it doesn't neccessarily make it a problem. If the milkman had the bus stop at every house, then that would be bad.

To be fair with Tmobile, 2Gb is a reasonable upper limit for GPRS, provided they are nice about it, i.e. send you a warning first, then give you a month or so to sort it out.

This debate goes beyond mobile data. The large ISPs want to tier the internet so that people like Apple pay extra for "steaming tarrifs". ISPs also like this as people are now actually beginning to use the capacity they payed for and the telco oversold. Most net visonaries are terrified of these changes as it will turn the internet into an "us and then" resource, getting rid of the whole revolutionary idea that anyone can be a publisher on the same level as everyone else. The large media companies are terrified of this; they are losing control of our media desires. Why watch Peter Andre when you can have crazy bald men dancing to Romanian pop songs? ;)

Testing times these...

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should we ban the mother with the pushchair? How about the art student with the A3 sized folder?

Er.....

Yes?

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