SKYPE Install HOW?

[Guest kc1]

I've managed to install it on my SP5 & get it going using the file attached in this thread and kam_'s fakecursor...

I can make a call from contacts, and hangup by pressing the joystick button.

A whole buch of things seem impossible, though - no menus, can't cancelling if you've already starting dialling, etc.

I assume this is because the ppc version of the program doesnt display properly on the smartphone screen? or are those functions missing from the ppc version as well (I dont' have a pocket pc, so can't test it).

Incidentally...did some here mention the skype file was about 3MB - the one I downloaded from here seems to be 5.69MB...is there another version out there perhaps?

[Guest LarsDK]

Please vote here to let skype we want our own version

http://forum.skype.com/viewtopic.php?t=46008

[Guest kc1]

I'm sure the reason a smartphone client is not available is not that Skype/eBay doesnt think there's an audience.

There will be very significant corporate issues to be addressed if Skype's client challenges the revenues from the Telecoms providers. Until that is sorted out, expect no smartphone client.

[Guest LarsDK]

they have just released a sýmban version for WiFi phones, so it seems that skype doesnt care about operators, why should they? They are their main competitors on the furture market...

[Guest kc1]

skype doesnt care about operators, why should they?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...Telcos need more data than voice traffic to repay 2.5&3G liscence and infrastructure costs. Skype threatens to cannibalise both since voice is taken off the GSM network and Telcos only gain the data traffic if they have a revenue stake in the Wifi hotspots (e.g. T-mobile). Since the Telcos subsidise the handset market by more than 50%, their muscle can prevent medium-long-term free skype & VOIP client use, unless they work out a way of sharing revenue or generating secondary revenue from VOIP. Why do you think its nearly impossible to but a camera without a phone? It's nothing to do with what the majority of customers want. It's a demonstration of the Telco needs to push data traffic: MMS->Video clips, etc).

I say medium-term because it's not operators' interests to exert their muscle until the concepts have been proven. Why should they pay for the development of the apps, when third parties can?

Edited February 20, 2006 by kc1

[Guest LarsDK]

I agree that all the operators want a lot of data traffic. The prices for data her in Denmark are for the cheapest operators around €1.3/MB, a good deal for the operatorrs i guess. The operators can not do much about skype coming to WiFi phone other than keeping the price high, but development will in time overtake and the operators have to adapt to the development by introducing skype on edge and 3g. For the moment and for us early adaptors the only way is still on wifi, and this way is no greater problem for the operators. It is still to expensive to make calls skype to mobile. It may not be in their interest but they have to get the most of it, maybe not using skype but their own versions of SIP-phones or something like that.

But again, why should Skype care about the operators? The only thing for skype should be whether or not the skype program should be in the phone out-of-box or not. But with many phones now it is easy to install new things, and nobody, not even the operators can do nothing about it.

[Guest kc1]

For the moment and for us early adaptors the only way is still on wifi, and this way is no greater problem for the operators

It becomes a problem when uptake damages voice revenues without enhancing data revenues. Until then of course it is no problem, because the 'early adopters' prove the concept, generate market interest [and news/PR] all while somebody else bears the development cost.

...introducing skype on edge and 3g...in the phone out-of-box...their own versions of SIP-phones or something like that

- I'm sure encouraging skype & other VOIP services to work on this is what is delaying the release of the client.

...the operators can do nothing about it.

They can - through commercial pressure on the handset manufacturers illustrated in the picture/video example, and I believe they will, once the timing and magnitude of the voice loss without data gain threshold is understood. Of course there will be ways around it for the technically inclined (just like unlocking, debrading etc.), but we are not the mainstream market.

[Guest LarsDK]

- I'm sure encouraging skype & other VOIP services to work on this is what is delaying the release of the client.

They can - through commercial pressure on the handset manufacturers illustrated in the picture/video example, and I believe they will, once the timing and magnitude of the voice loss without data gain threshold is understood. Of course there will be ways around it for the technically inclined (just like unlocking, debrading etc.), but we are not the mainstream market.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They can ask them not to make phones with WiFi but development in the market right now is that the next step is WiFi, no matter what they say.

It does not have to be a technical difficult task to download a new program to the phone, more and more online casino and poker rooms are doing it right now to get more customers. The only thing you have to do is to type in your phone number and then a text message is sent to explain the rest. It is very simple and everone can do it, the same thing could be done with skype to make et available to the masses. There is no reason for Skype not to do that right now, and with the release of the symbian version it seems like they dont care about the operators.

Nice move, and hopefully they port it to our phones as well, otherwise they will lose to the SIP-phone when it is here. Right now barablu looks interesting as a competitor to skype on the smartphone.

[Guest kc1]

with the release of the symbian version it seems like they dont care about the operators.

I think you may have missed my point. Its the operators that dont care about this. In fact they need and therefore encourage the development. The point is, the timing of cross-platform smartphone client will come at a point when the operators are comfortable that they understand how to share money in the post-early adopter market. That may well be soon.

They can ask them not to make phones with Wifi

This is not how they will do it. Wifi is inevitable, and operators will enable it for reveunue - viz T-Mobile. Control will be established by through software restrictions, albeit hackable like most things, I'm sure. the same kind of BS as DVD standards, region-coding etc.

Right now barablu looks interesting as a competitor to skype on the smartphone.

Agreed. More will follow.

[Guest Nubbing]

Why don't skype install wifi masts like mobile phone masts around the world that have massive signals. Surely where not far off that?

If skype means an end to mobile phone networks...so what. I can't wait as it means free calls.

[Guest kam_]

Hmm i think you guys are missing the point...

GSM is geared to voice, and does data fairly well when there are a small number of users.

WiFi works well for data and does ok for voice with few users.

When the users increase for something the system isnt designed for you can't expect it to continue working properly.

GSM for example uses GPRS as a stop gap data solution. It assigns one or more of a FIXED number of timeslots, with a FIXED BANDWIDTH to users in any given area in a round robin fashion. Only when the users are few are you guaranteed bandwidth.

With EDGE the 'FIXED BANDWIDTH' is greatly increased over GPRS, but it is still fixed. More importantly the number of timeslots are still fixed.

Let me break it down a bit more for you..

In one area, on one frequency, there are 8 GPRS timeslots (this is configurable by the network but this is realistic). Each timeslot can store 9600 bits of data (depending on class this can go upto 28,800 on GPRS).

That means if there is one user he can have 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 or all 8 timeslots asigned to him at any one time.

That means he can have a data rate of anywhere from 9600bps to 8x9600 = 76800 bps.

If there are more users, then these 8 timeslots are shared between them.

Remember the minimum any user can be asigned is ONE Timeslot. So what happens if you have 1000 users?

Well user 1 gets a few timeslots for a split second, then user 2, then user 3, etc and it goes round and round.

Because you're transfering data you don't notice that you're waiting in between the actual transfer of data.

THIS IS THE CRUCIAL POINT!

With 1000 users the time between the transmits/receives would increase to something that would cause a VoIP call to drop. In fact it would take far less than 1000 users in a VoIP call for this to happen.

EDGE allows the timeslots to transmit more data, so you're average data rate is much higher. BUT thats not relevant for VoIP. What is relevant is the packet delay. If some other user is using all the timeslots you have to wait. If your voice packet doesnt get to the other side very quickly the voice breaks down.

Let me give you an elaborate example.

Imagine EDGE could transmit 5mbits/second.

But there were so many users that you got a burst of 5mbits every 5th seconds:

Second 1: Transmit/receive 5mbits

Second 2: Wait

Second 3: Wait

Second 4: Wait

Second 5: Wait

Second 6: Transmit/receive 5mbits

etc.

Your transfer would seem like its going at 1mbit/second - the average data transfer - sounds good eh? yeah for data, but for voice the 4 seconds in between would cause your voice call to break down.

Because of this slot sharing system GPRS/EDGE etc are NOT geared for packet delay critical applications like VoIP. It may work for some people in some areas right now, but when more people start using it it won't work anymore.

Now the converse.. WiFi for voice calls..

You have similar problems when the users increase. If you hit the bandwidth limit on that conection packets are delayed or even dropped. But this isn't even one of the many real problem with WiFi for voice.

VoIP is of course IP based. If you want to be able to handover between WiFi hot spots, then you need a mechanism for doing so. If both WiFi hot spots are part of the same network its ok, because your IP doesnt change. If they are not, then you need to be able to tell the other party your about to change IP.

What happens in the mean time while you're handing over?

You're phone will need to be looking at the frequency of the new WiFi spot while still being on the current WiFi frequency to maintain no voice loss.

Sure there are some mechanisms they are trying to add to the WiFiMax standards, but it all needs co-operation between the WiFi hotspots and so only works when both are owned by the same company.

Does this remind anyone else of GSM towers?

Also how can two computers use the same frequency to transmit/receive data? They use handshaking with each other and the tower to let each other know when its safe to transmit. So wait a minute - u mean only one person can transmit at any one time? So then don't u end up with the same GPRS wait problem? Yes you do! The window size is dynamic, so it takes more users for it to manifest, but its still there.

So.. why not use multiple frequencies and copy the handover stuff from GSM and mix the two together? Sure... its called UMTS or 3G. Its good for voice, its good for data, but not great at either.

Ultimately tho, the towers need to have co-operation, so havn't u just kicked your GSM operater out, so u can sign up with a WiFi operator? Ok so with the WiFi operator u can choose your VoIP provider yourself.. but on top u have to pay the WiFi charge.

So sure this WiFi and VoIP stuff encourages price drops, but neither technology will kill off the other!

I keep hearing this same old stuff about VoIP all over forums from people who don't understand the underpinning transport technology.. just rememer operators of GSM, 3G, WiFiMax are not stupid! If WiFi were that much of a GSM killer why wouldn't the GSM operators just add a WiFi transmitter to every GSM tower they own? They don't because they acknowledge its a different tehcnology aimed at a different market and there's room for both.

[Guest kc1]

Hmm i think you guys are missing the point...

... its called UMTS or 3G.  Its good for voice, its good for data, but not great at either.

....neither technology will kill off the other!

I keep hearing this same old stuff...people who don't understand...just rememer operators...are not stupid....

kam_, nobody said one technology is going to kill off the other. The operators are of course not stupid. VOIP over UMTS can work, as can VOIP over EDGE. With WiMax or not contention ratios are arbitrary, it depends how much investment there is in infrastruture...and marketing...

...buts that's all irrelevant. The point here is not technical, but commercial.

VOIP for smartphone over whatever carrier technology will only be widespread when the operators work out the commercial details--not just when the skype development team is lobbied by the likes of us to release another beta. Yes it might mean 'free' calls for a limited early adopter period, but not for long.

[Guest ecotrojan]

OK, really need peoples help please.

I have an imate SP5. I have installed Skype by renaming the following three files.

000Boing.002 -> Boing.wav

000Skype.001 -> Skype.exe

SKYPED~1.003 -> SkypeDialer.dll

I have copied them onto the phone - not the SD card.

I have used Pocket Controller to get the username & password in so that when I run Skype it automatically logs in.

My problem is as follows.

I call a friend on Skype. I hear them but they can only hear my whisper - so if i shout at the top of my voice 'HELLO' all the other party hears is a lot of static.. then a very very faint (hardly audible) whispered 'HELLO' which OK you can understand (just) but you wouldnt be able to hold a conversation like this.

Anyone come across this problem before ? or know how to get around it?

Thanks

Matt

[Guest kam_]

kam_, nobody said one technology is going to kill off the other.  The operators are of course not stupid.  VOIP over UMTS can work, as can VOIP over EDGE.  With WiMax or not contention ratios are arbitrary, it depends how much investment there is in infrastruture...and marketing...

...buts that's all irrelevant.  The point here is not technical, but commercial. 

VOIP for smartphone over whatever carrier technology will only be widespread when the operators work out the commercial details--not just when the skype development team is lobbied by the likes of us to release another beta.  Yes it might mean 'free' calls for a limited early adopter period, but not for long.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well sure VoIP over UMTS can work (but its a waste of badnwdith) as can VoIP over EDGE, but in this case not when there's alot of users. Thats just the way the technology works. Even if investment were unlimited with current technology there are limited frequencies so its not as simple as packing more frequencies into the tower. Thats why GSM for example uses the whole cell system. It has nothing to do with contention ratio's which is something completely different - i'm talking about the physical maximum bandwidth and more precisely the nature of the packet delays. This is a real issue which is decided upon at design time to either favour data or voice (either packet or circuit).

A seperate issue is VoIP termination itself. There is a misconseption that its free or very very cheap. Thats not really true actually. In fact it seems cheap to the average user because it exposes a route for them to use other terminators than their GSM provider. Ultimately the call has to be terminated to some network, and that network charges you for termination.

VoIP simply provides you a cheap/free route to get to this terminator.

Take SkyPE out charges. They are actually very high in country - why? because your GSM network is giving them a very high interconnect rate. The same happens in other countries, but it seems cheap to you international because your comparing to your GSM provider. Your GSM provider could offer rates similar to VoIP very easily. What do you think they use to terminate your GSM calls to international destinations?

The whole advantage of VoIP on a smartphone is that the operator doesn't need to work out comercials before you can use it. Anyone can create a client (cicerophone?) and you are free to use any voip terminator you like (vonage?).

Its there already, there's nothing to work out.

BUT like i said the infrastructure CAN NOT support VoIP for mass users by design. WiFi has a better chance, but you don't have handover so you're stuck in one spot. The usefullness will decrease as GSM operator rates decrease.

[Guest LarsDK]

I think I did misunderstand you kc1... my bad.. :?:

For the lack of handover, I really dont see that as a problem, for most users they spend 8 hours at work where there for some people is a hotspot and then some hours at home in the evening and the weekends, in this period it would work great. Then you only need the GSM network on the move, that would be a great benefit for me at least and save me a lot of money even with skype out rates. The Skype to mobile calls is not cheaper, but the skype to landline calls are 1/7 of the price, so its there the money lies for me and I think most others. And of course other skype/voip-users.

[Guest kc1]

The whole advantage of VoIP on a smartphone is that the operator doesn't need to work out comercials before you can use it....The usefullness will decrease as GSM operator rates decrease.

That's the advantage for you the consumer, not the Telco business. Yes of course they're out there, vonage, etc. but not with critical mass - that's the significant commercial driver, not call pricing, which you seem to be talking about - that's relative. Anyway, this thread seems to have gone off topic - apologies.

[Guest kam_]

but you said 'VOIP for smartphone over whatever carrier technology will only be widespread when the operators work out the commercial details'

I don't see what 'comercials' there are for the operator then? I think you're right we are talking about two different things, and we've gone way off topic. I think we've both made enough points to be usefull, so lets get back on topic..

My problem is as follows.

I call a friend on Skype. I hear them but they can only hear my whisper - so if i shout at the top of my voice 'HELLO'  all the other party hears is a lot of static.. then a very very faint (hardly audible) whispered 'HELLO' which OK you can understand (just) but you wouldnt  be able to hold a conversation like this.

Anyone come across this problem before ? or know how to get around it?

Have you tried using your handsfree kit? I'm asuming this is over WiFi and not GPRS (on both sides)

[Guest ecotrojan]

good point - i am at work at the mo, i will try the handsfree kit later

many thanks

Matt

[Guest TigerNet]

...ditto on that last one...how do you initiate a SkypeOut call? Also, I do not appear to be able to use the menus...

...is there a mouse emulator that does not require a registry hack?

Cheers

Nick

[Guest kam_]

You can't see the menu's because of the way they are drawn - side affect of using the PPC version on a smartphone :)

You can use fakecursor without registry entries. The entires are only to let you bring up the cursor using a hardware button - you can just launch the fake cursor file manually from file explorer if you want.

[Guest Nubbing]

Thanks for that write up kam_

i'll read it later :^o

No actually I have read it all, I just thought I would make use of the smilies. :-"

Thanks for clearing my didn't think about it properly idea.

[Guest TigerNet]

...ta...I'll give it a go...

...will this help with the SkypeOut question as well?

Cheers

Nick

[Guest kc1]

...ditto on that last one...how do you initiate a SkypeOut call?

As far as I know you can't, because you can't hit the dial button, even with a cursor emulator.

[Guest ecotrojan]

Guys, i tried using Skype on the SP5 with the headset, no go :)

Still the 'whisper effect'

Shame really, may have to try Barablu? Anyone tried this on the SP5

[Guest ecotrojan]

I think I am gonna sell my SP5, i heard the new rom comes out this week but unless this is gonna address the issue with Skype (which I know it probably wont) then I bought this phone thinking I could wifi Skype - Woize or Barablu but it dont.

Its a shame because it really is a great, no excellent phone and looks professional for business etc...

If only the sp5 had a faster processor, maybe then, it may be able to run skype properley.

I am assuming the problem lies with the processor ?