HTC TyTN II Annoyances

[Guest fusi]

Ive had a closer look and it seems they havent messed with the GUI as much as those pictures, maybe thats just the german version that got that theme. from what ive seen of the uk version of the Vario III they have kept it looking almost like the default TYTN II GUI

just saw your edit showing the case - omg thats fugly lol, looks like some cheap prop out of a 60's sci-fi show lol

[Guest Neil5459]

I found on the homepage a link to a download and on the side, the persone talks about donating... I will test this version on my phone and see if it is a full version or not.

(I guess that to block all the connections, I have to switch to GSM...)

Thank you for the hint!

Gennaro

The downloadable cab file of V2.4 will need registering at some point- if you pay by PayPal, Daniel will send you the reg code. The older version 1.2 is free, and can still be found in a few places. Lacks the more extensive switching options, but sufficient for most use!

You don't need to switch to GSM to block any connection- data connections will route via whichever radio connection is open, be it 3G or GSM, so switching on/off a particular Data configuration is all thats necessary.

[Guest draxredd]

The only "annoyance" i've got since i got my kaiser is the lack of an option to turn on the full TouchFlo interface. it's not tottaly necessary, but still would be a nice... touch.

Edited September 29, 2007 by draxredd

[Guest Phil_UK]

Hi

firstly all this nonsense about SOD's. i tried replicating this issue on my device and yes my device also stops responding to input if im on a call and the lock time-out expires. being a relatively experienced programmer with a certain intuition for the inner workings of things i can say without a shadow of a doubt that this is not a hardware fault (having now actually seen it first hand). this is a software bug that i believe will be really easy to fix - without the lock on it works just fine. im fairly damn sure this is totally reproducible on every kaiser (bar rom revisions if they exist).

Just to clarify, the locking start menu is a separate complaint to those talking about SOD or Standby of Death (where the phone will not switch on).

Yes the locking start menu happens to all Kaisers where the phone password is used and is due to the way the Kaiser's phone application interacts with the system, I did make a small application that worked around this. This problem isn't with Windows Mobile (no issues with this on a clean Windows Mobile 6 OS) but with HTC's software.

It's a real shame and should have been picked up in HTC's testing considering their installation routine tries to get you to password protect the device, and that for many it's compulsory when syncing with company systems. Still no fix from HTC on it.

The Standby of Death is something that affects several phones and really hit the 'forums' with the launch of the Toshiba G900 that suffered this problem for many (or all) and was acknowledged by Toshiba. I had the G900 for a few days and it suffered a SOD within 20-30 minutes of using it, then many more after that. A standby of death is a symptom of some other problem and it may be caused by different things on different types of device.

The Kaiser doesn't suffer from standby of death problems in my opinion, and for me it has never failed to switch on and work, and considering the popularity of the device if this problem was endemic like the Toshiba G900 forums would be full of complaints.

Only a few people have reported standby problems on their Kaisers, this is either due to a hardware fault (for example in standby with lowered voltages and clock rates to conserve power any faulty RAM is more likely to fall over then), or some issue with software they have installed.

Just thought it useful to clear up for those reading this thread that are likely to jump to the end to read the latest posts.

Regards

Phil

[Guest Nick Le Lievre]

The Kaiser doesn't suffer from standby of death problems in my opinion, and for me it has never failed to switch on and work, and considering the popularity of the device if this problem was endemic like the Toshiba G900 forums would be full of complaints.

Only a few people have reported standby problems on their Kaisers, this is either due to a hardware fault (for example in standby with lowered voltages and clock rates to conserve power any faulty RAM is more likely to fall over then), or some issue with software they have installed.

Just thought it useful to clear up for those reading this thread that are likely to jump to the end to read the latest posts.

Well I`m one of those few thats had a Standby of Death with a Tytn II so I can say for sure it can happen, whether or not it only happens on faulty devices I`m not sure. My current theory is that it happens sometimes with data or wifi connections running during standby. Sometimes while a data connection is active in standby the network loses connection or something in some area's of the UK and causes an SOD. I will only know for sure after another week or so, so far on this lastest run I`ve gone just over 3 days without soft reset or SOD. My previous record was 3 days then SOD, if after another few weeks I find that I`m not having SODs anymore then I can say for sure that data connections either wifi or GPRS can cause SOD. I know your supposed to be able to run data connections while in standby but am thinking that maybe there is a problem with this sometimes in some area's.

[Guest fusi]

Hi

Just to clarify, the locking start menu is a separate complaint to those talking about SOD or Standby of Death (where the phone will not switch on).

Yes the locking start menu happens to all Kaisers where the phone password is used and is due to the way the Kaiser's phone application interacts with the system, I did make a small application that worked around this. This problem isn't with Windows Mobile (no issues with this on a clean Windows Mobile 6 OS) but with HTC's software.

It's a real shame and should have been picked up in HTC's testing considering their installation routine tries to get you to password protect the device, and that for many it's compulsory when syncing with company systems. Still no fix from HTC on it.

The Standby of Death is something that affects several phones and really hit the 'forums' with the launch of the Toshiba G900 that suffered this problem for many (or all) and was acknowledged by Toshiba. I had the G900 for a few days and it suffered a SOD within 20-30 minutes of using it, then many more after that. A standby of death is a symptom of some other problem and it may be caused by different things on different types of device.

The Kaiser doesn't suffer from standby of death problems in my opinion, and for me it has never failed to switch on and work, and considering the popularity of the device if this problem was endemic like the Toshiba G900 forums would be full of complaints.

Only a few people have reported standby problems on their Kaisers, this is either due to a hardware fault (for example in standby with lowered voltages and clock rates to conserve power any faulty RAM is more likely to fall over then), or some issue with software they have installed.

Just thought it useful to clear up for those reading this thread that are likely to jump to the end to read the latest posts.

Regards

Phil

aha! ever so sorry phil, i thought that was the SOD problem heh

[Guest Phil_UK]

Hi

aha! ever so sorry phil, i thought that was the SOD problem heh

No need to apologise ;) I'm quite confident you will never experience the "standby of death" of problem, which results in the phone failing to turn back on, as this isn't something the Kaiser has as a problem.

Well I`m one of those few thats had a Standby of Death with a Tytn II so I can say for sure it can happen, whether or not it only happens on faulty devices I`m not sure.

I think we all know you suffer from it :wub:

Can faulty devices leave the factory? Yes. Could a fault cause it to crash and not turn on. Yes.

I've put the Kaiser through a lot, BlueTooth active sync connections, normal active sync, Wi-Fi to various access points, debugging and deploying .NET applications, 3G/2G data connections etc, I've not cared if these have been left on or not prior to the phone turning off and the Kaiser has never once failed to turn back on or give me any cause to soft reset etc.

The Kaiser does not suffer from 'Standby of Deaths', if it did, with the numbers sold to date, there would be many more people reporting the problem, as was the case with the G900.

I personally believe your phone is faulty as if it was a problem with the software, which we all have exactly the same version of, then I would have surely had the problem by now, indeed every single owner of a Kaiser would have had the same problem by now, but I certainly haven't, and I'm sure many others haven't.

Regards

Phil

Edited September 29, 2007 by Phil_UK

[Guest Alkali]

SOD is real! I run my device without any connection, No Wifi,No Gprs, no nothing but i still experiance SOD.

I even hard rest it to factory level and run it for the whole day without syncing with outlook but i suffer from this menacing SOD. Come on Gentlemen because yours do not suffer same, do not discredit us.

[Guest Phil_UK]

Hi

SOD is real! I run my device without any connection, No Wifi,No Gprs, no nothing but i still experiance SOD.

I even hard rest it to factory level and run it for the whole day without syncing with outlook but i suffer from this menacing SOD. Come on Gentlemen because yours do not suffer same, do not discredit us.

Send it back for a new one. If you are experiencing problems your phone is faulty. There is no bug with the Kaiser causing these problems, if you are having a problem your phone is broken, get it changed.

Regards

Phil

[Guest dolbe666]

ive had mine since the launch and never ever had a SOD. I did have probelms with my first Kaiser but that went back as soon as it was clear there was a fault. its quite normal for release batch mobiles to have issues, although there are fewer problems than there where a few years ago when alot of mobiles had serious issues during the launch of the device, usually they where fixed with firmware updated. With the price of the Kaiser i did not hesitate to return mine, when im paying close to £500 for a mobile i want to be sure its in full working order and if not get it replaced rather than trying to wait to see if the problem will clear up as Nick has done.

[Guest veef13]

dunno if its just my unit? but external speaker is unusable, even on lowest setting its really crackly and vibrates, internal (ear) speaker is fine tho, bu ttrying to make a loudspeaker call is horrible!

also getting more lag switching to lanscape than my old vario!

[Guest Nick Le Lievre]

ive had mine since the launch and never ever had a SOD. I did have probelms with my first Kaiser but that went back as soon as it was clear there was a fault. its quite normal for release batch mobiles to have issues, although there are fewer problems than there where a few years ago when alot of mobiles had serious issues during the launch of the device, usually they where fixed with firmware updated. With the price of the Kaiser i did not hesitate to return mine, when im paying close to £500 for a mobile i want to be sure its in full working order and if not get it replaced rather than trying to wait to see if the problem will clear up as Nick has done.

For me the SOD problem isn't that bad... I had it 3 times during the first 6 days (never twice on same day) and not once in the last 19 days, for most of those 19 days I was soft resetting everyday and not running any connections when left to go into standby. I`ve now gone just over 4 days since my last soft reset and no SOD or other problem so far... I can only attribute this to luck or the fact I`m running no connections in standby. I have untill tommorow to ship the item back otherwise I will be too late. Its really hard to decide what the do the device has worked perfectly the last 19days apart from 1 forced soft reset I had to do when the device couldn't dial WAP (GPRS). I think I can live with it.

[Guest dolbe666]

For me the SOD problem isn't that bad... I had it 3 times during the first 6 days (never twice on same day) and not once in the last 19 days, for most of those 19 days I was soft resetting everyday and not running any connections when left to go into standby. I`ve now gone just over 4 days since my last soft reset and no SOD or other problem so far... I can only attribute this to luck or the fact I`m running no connections in standby. I have untill tommorow to ship the item back otherwise I will be too late. Its really hard to decide what the do the device has worked perfectly the last 19days apart from 1 forced soft reset I had to do when the device couldn't dial WAP (GPRS). I think I can live with it.

NICK

your still doing it!

when testing your device for faults you DONT avoid the things thats cause the problem you try repeat the actions that caused the faults. you not having a live connection while in standby only shows it wont cause the SOD while its not connected. you need to expose the fault,

[Guest Nick Le Lievre]

when testing your device for faults you DONT avoid the things thats cause the problem you try repeat the actions that caused the faults. you not having a live connection while in standby only shows it wont cause the SOD while its not connected. you need to expose the fault,

�not run away from it

I`m still trying to ascertain if "being connected while in standby" is the cause of the SOD fault on the Tytn II. At the moment I cannot say for certain. In anycase I know that running a connection while in standby doesn't always cause an SOD everytime, I`m just thinking that rarely it might and maybe only in certain area's. I wouldn't normally leave a connection running while in standby anyway I have no application that needs this, and despite what people say it does drain the battery more doing this.

The only reason I ran connections while in standby the first 6 days was becuase I didn't know how to end data connections. Becuase I wouldn't normally run data connections while in standby why should I now try to run them in standby its not how I would normally use the device, I`m not trying to reproduce the fault I`m trying to avoid it. What if you could produce a standby of death on your device (on every device) its just that you've never done the thing that causes it.

I find it hard to believe that my device would differ from everyone else's except in the unlikely possibility that it was faulty, one guy got 2 Tytn II same day both had SOD! Maybe its something we're doing that your not that causes the SOD.

[Guest dolbe666]

I`m still trying to ascertain if "being connected while in standby" is the cause of the SOD fault on the Tytn II. At the moment I cannot say for certain. In anycase I know that running a connection while in standby doesn't always cause an SOD everytime, I`m just thinking that rarely it might and maybe only in certain area's. I wouldn't normally leave a connection running while in standby anyway I have no application that needs this, and despite what people say it does drain the battery more doing this.

The only reason I ran connections while in standby the first 6 days was becuase I didn't know how to end data connections. Becuase I wouldn't normally run data connections while in standby why should I now try to run them in standby its not how I would normally use the device, I`m not trying to reproduce the fault I`m trying to avoid it. What if you could produce a standby of death on your device (on every device) its just that you've never done the thing that causes it.

I find it hard to believe that my device would differ from everyone else's except in the unlikely possibility that it was faulty, one guy got 2 Tytn II same day both had SOD! Maybe its something we're doing that your not that causes the SOD.

Im just rying to save you the long wait it will take if it turnes out to be faulty, a repair job will tale 14 to 28 days. its best to be safe than sorry. if it goes past the 28 days from purchase you will have to get it repaired under warranty rather than a quick exchange.

when I say try to recreate the fault, its so you can find out just what the cause is. If the cause is from doing something that others dont get a problem with then its inherently faulty. Do you get what im trying to tell you? If what your doing causes a SOD yet someone else doing the exact same thing doesnt cause the SOD then your device has a fault. when testing a device for faults you need to keep to the same scenario that cause the fault and try repeat the same procedure. if this procedure causes the SOD and it doesnt normally cause the problem in other devices then you have pinpointed the problem and cause

That method is how companies test products. its a proven method of weeding out faults.

[Guest Alkali]

ive had mine since the launch and never ever had a SOD. I did have probelms with my first Kaiser but that went back as soon as it was clear there was a fault. its quite normal for release batch mobiles to have issues, although there are fewer problems than there where a few years ago when alot of mobiles had serious issues during the launch of the device, usually they where fixed with firmware updated. With the price of the Kaiser i did not hesitate to return mine, when im paying close to £500 for a mobile i want to be sure its in full working order and if not get it replaced rather than trying to wait to see if the problem will clear up as Nick has done.

Dolbe 666,

I really agree with you. Nothing can be further from the truth. I kept repeating to you, i run this device for a day only using it as a phone(nothing more) but i still had an SOD. Not once or twice, that's why i do not agree with Nick over his assumption. My pain is i contacted where i bought the device and it appears they will not take it back( It has been with me for almost two wks). Their reason: ITEMS ONCE BOUGHT SHALL NOT BE RETURNED.To add salt to injury a friend who bought the units for me did not collect any warranty or guarantee from the sellers.So my dear friends what do you advise me today? Wait for rom upgrade or send it for repairs to Htc?

[Guest Nick Le Lievre]

when I say try to recreate the fault, its so you can find out just what the cause is. If the cause is from doing something that others dont get a problem with then its inherently faulty. Do you get what im trying to tell you? If what your doing causes a SOD yet someone else doing the exact same thing doesnt cause the SOD then your device has a fault. when testing a device for faults you need to keep to the same scenario that cause the fault and try repeat the same procedure. if this procedure causes the SOD and it doesnt normally cause the problem in other devices then you have pinpointed the problem and cause

I appreciate what your trying to say but firstly I haven't said for certain that leaving data connections running when the phone goes into standby untill they timeout definetely causes the SOD on my device. If it does it only does it sometimes as I`ve run data connections untill timeout many times without it causing an SOD, but maybe sometimes on the odd occasion something happens which causes an SOD when in this state. If you are constantly starting data connections and leaving them running then over the course of a few days a situation may arise when the SOD happens.

This in itself may only happen on certain networks in certain area's when for example the signal is lost or there is a problem maintaining the data connection for some reason. I don't know yet its just a theory might turn out to be wrong but the longer I go without SODs the more I will suspect the data connection. Its been a few hours over 4 days since last reset and no SOD yet. Like you say if I do determine a fault I can still send it in for repair even if outside the 21 days my supplier allows for replacement... if I determine the fault to be with running data connections which doesn't happen to other people I can say that I suspect this and to test under these conditions for a few days.

If it only happens on certain networks or in certain situations such as going into an area where the signal is lost then maybe they won't be able to reproduce it. It may not be as clear cut as the phone is faulty even if other people don't seem to have the same problem.

[Guest Nick Le Lievre]

Dolbe 666,

I really agree with you. Nothing can be further from the truth. I kept repeating to you, i run this device for a day only using it as a phone(nothing more) but i still had an SOD. Not once or twice, that's why i do not agree with Nick over his assumption. My pain is i contacted where i bought the device and it appears they will not take it back( It has been with me for almost two wks). Their reason: ITEMS ONCE BOUGHT SHALL NOT BE RETURNED.To add salt to injury a friend who bought the units for me did not collect any warranty or guarantee from the sellers.So my dear friends what do you advise me today? Wait for rom upgrade or send it for repairs to Htc?

My situation is different to you then I`ve only had the SOD 3 times in the first 6 days while I was using the phone for allsorts, Wifi - data connections etc since then I`ve not had another SOD and I went 13 days where I soft reset everyday and didn't run Wifi and made sure to disconnect data connections after use... I went 13 days without an SOD I don't think it was fluke it had something to do with the way I was using it.

Since then I`ve tried to run without resets and at first went 37hours where the phone lost the ability to dial my data connection and needed a reset, and now I`m going 4 days 5 hours since last reset without SOD or other problem. I seem to have had less SODs then you but maybe its the way I`m using it... but you said you went 1 day using just as a phone and had an SOD.

Have you tried soft resetting the device everyday? If you have and still had an SOD within 24 hours of reset then I def think there is something wrong with your phone, I have not had this happen to me.

[Guest dolbe666]

Dolbe 666,

I really agree with you. Nothing can be further from the truth. I kept repeating to you, i run this device for a day only using it as a phone(nothing more) but i still had an SOD. Not once or twice, that's why i do not agree with Nick over his assumption. My pain is i contacted where i bought the device and it appears they will not take it back( It has been with me for almost two wks). Their reason: ITEMS ONCE BOUGHT SHALL NOT BE RETURNED.To add salt to injury a friend who bought the units for me did not collect any warranty or guarantee from the sellers.So my dear friends what do you advise me today? Wait for rom upgrade or send it for repairs to Htc?

I dont know what country your in or where you bought it from. In the uk we are protected with consumer laws that give 7 days for a cool off period if bought online for return without reason for full refund. upto 14 days for return for refund with a reason for returning eg. fault or unused and not needed. upto 28 days for return for refund or replacement for faulty products. after 28 days the warranty is taken over and it goes back to the point of sale in which they will forward it to the manufacturer for repair or replacement if it cant be repaired. In europe there is an extended warranty time outside the manufacturers warranty that states the average lifetime of a product should be a certain lengh of time.. upto 6 years after purchase that the electrical device should work under normal opperating condidtions.

That is the consumer laws for the Uk, your laws may be different but i advice you to find out what your rights as a consumer are.

[Guest Neil5459]

Dolbe 666,

I really agree with you. Nothing can be further from the truth. I kept repeating to you, i run this device for a day only using it as a phone(nothing more) but i still had an SOD. Not once or twice, that's why i do not agree with Nick over his assumption. My pain is i contacted where i bought the device and it appears they will not take it back( It has been with me for almost two wks). Their reason: ITEMS ONCE BOUGHT SHALL NOT BE RETURNED.To add salt to injury a friend who bought the units for me did not collect any warranty or guarantee from the sellers.So my dear friends what do you advise me today? Wait for rom upgrade or send it for repairs to Htc?

Where do you live Alkali? If you are in Europe, then consumer protection laws ought to be in operation. Did you buy it from an authorised dealer? The buyer does not specifically need a warranty from the seller, but must be able to produce the sales receipt. Faulty goods have to be replaced or repaired by the supplier. If not, then HTC do have a worldwide warranty, so should be able to repair the device.

[Guest Alkali]

Where do you live Alkali? If you are in Europe, then consumer protection laws ought to be in operation. Did you buy it from an authorised dealer? The buyer does not specifically need a warranty from the seller, but must be able to produce the sales receipt. Faulty goods have to be replaced or repaired by the supplier. If not, then HTC do have a worldwide warranty, so should be able to repair the device.

I live in Nigeria but had a friend who stays in Dubai bought the unit for me.He contacted the seller and as i have mentioned earlier his opinion.

[Guest Phil_UK]

Hi

In the uk we are protected with consumer laws that give 7 days for a cool off period if bought online for return without reason for full refund. upto 14 days for return for refund with a reason for returning eg. fault or unused and not needed. upto 28 days for return for refund or replacement for faulty products. after 28 days the warranty is taken over and it goes back to the point of sale in which they will forward it to the manufacturer for repair or replacement

Sorry but there is some mis-information here. Under the 7 day cooling off period you can return goods (some goods are excluded) but not for full refund as you will be out of pocket for carriage both ways. Other charges may be levied if the item isn't returned in new condition. This isn't for use in returning faulty goods, but just where you may have changed your mind about the purchase. If you are returning faulty goods you should return them under the sale of goods act, which will get you a full refund including carriage charges, rather than the 7 day cooling off period.

Apart from the 7-day distance-selling act, there is nothing that requires the shop to offer a refund or exchange just because you have changed your mind.

Your other day periods for return of faulty goods mean nothing for UK purchasers even if often quoted.

There is no fixed time span in which you have to return goods to the seller if they are faulty, and in some cases the seller can be held liable for goods upto 6 years after purchase! The 14/28 days for return that online sites or shops offer are only in addition to your statutory rights and the shop cannot legally force you to return the item to the manufacturer under warranty just because you are on day 29! They hide behind these artificial time spans and often imply you have entered into a contract and agreed to the 28 day cut off, but any sellers doing so are breaking the law and it would be worth reporting them to their local trading standards office.

What does exist in law is any faults should be reported in a reasonable time, and this varies depending on the item and the fault and reasonable time can only be decided by a court if you take it that far, and not by the shop at the time of sale!

In addition in the UK within the first 6 months of having the product if a fault develops the onus is on the seller to prove the item isn't faulty rather than you proving it is. This saves the buyer from hassles of getting independent engineers reports etc at their own expense.

If your phone is faulty from early on and this causes you hassle or extra expense (perhaps you have to buy a cheap phone to get by) there is nothing stopping you receiving a full refund for the phone and claiming compensation for any expenses incurred due to the fault.

Regards

Phil

[Guest dolbe666]

Hi

Sorry but there is some mis-information here. Under the 7 day cooling off period you can return goods (some goods are excluded) but not for full refund as you will be out of pocket for carriage both ways. Other charges may be levied if the item isn't returned in new condition. This isn't for use in returning faulty goods, but just where you may have changed your mind about the purchase. If you are returning faulty goods you should return them under the sale of goods act, which will get you a full refund including carriage charges, rather than the 7 day cooling off period.

Apart from the 7-day distance-selling act, there is nothing that requires the shop to offer a refund or exchange just because you have changed your mind.

Your other day periods for return of faulty goods mean nothing for UK purchasers even if often quoted.

There is no fixed time span in which you have to return goods to the seller if they are faulty, and in some cases the seller can be held liable for goods upto 6 years after purchase! The 14/28 days for return that online sites or shops offer are only in addition to your statutory rights and the shop cannot legally force you to return the item to the manufacturer under warranty just because you are on day 29! They hide behind these artificial time spans and often imply you have entered into a contract and agreed to the 28 day cut off, but any sellers doing so are breaking the law and it would be worth reporting them to their local trading standards office.

What does exist in law is any faults should be reported in a reasonable time, and this varies depending on the item and the fault and reasonable time can only be decided by a court if you take it that far, and not by the shop at the time of sale!

In addition in the UK within the first 6 months of having the product if a fault develops the onus is on the seller to prove the item isn't faulty rather than you proving it is. This saves the buyer from hassles of getting independent engineers reports etc at their own expense.

If your phone is faulty from early on and this causes you hassle or extra expense (perhaps you have to buy a cheap phone to get by) there is nothing stopping you receiving a full refund for the phone and claiming compensation for any expenses incurred due to the fault.

Regards

Phil

Phil

your right, after rereading the uk trade standards i see its a grey

Edited October 1, 2007 by dolbe666

[Guest Rayder]

can anyone see if they can put the "disconnect connections" button thats in the comm manager, into the launch button? so that you can just quickly turn them all off without having to go through the menus? if it does work, can you also try the same thing for the HSDPA button? thanks

[Guest Phil_UK]

Hi

you can return a product under "reasonable" circumstanses upto the 14 days. as for the 28 day period that is the time in wich you can get a replacement rather than repair under warranty. afer that its the manufactiure that has to deal with it (through the retailer).

You are wrong and giving people false information.

There is nothing in law giving a consumer upto 14 days to return a product under "reasonable" circumstances in the UK. It is up to the shop if the offer such a policy.

The 28 day period also doesn't exist in law. Your contract is with the seller and not the manufacturer, the warranty is something in addition to your statutory legal rights and it is up to the buyer if they use that warranty or not and the seller cannot force you to use that warranty by advertising cut off periods for return.

For anyone confused, please follow this link for your legal rights in the UK, rather than reading something based on myth and mis-understandings of the law: http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/callist.cgi

Regards

Phil

Edited October 1, 2007 by Phil_UK