e200 Complaint to Orange

[Guest Polly2Carpets]

Hello all =')

I'll be sending off my first ever letter of complaint to Orange tomorrow. I have inculded it here for you to see below. I know my issues are not unique and that many of you are similarly frustrated with the e200 and what it can't do vs. what Orange say it can do so if you want to send in a letter of complaint, their address is:

Correspondance Department,

PO Box 10,

Patchway,

Bristol,

BS32 4BQ

I'll post their reply if I get one.

Dear Sir or Madam,

It is with some disappointment that I write to you concerning the SPV e200 phone I recently upgraded to.

Before the e200, I had one of the very first SPV’s, and was pleased with its features and general performance. The next logical step for me was to upgrade and the e200 promised so many improvements over the SPV. It is only now, after paying for the upgrade and trying the unit firsthand that I find so many faults and inabilities and I feel compelled to write to you and complain.

One of the biggest disappointments for me is the Bluetooth functionality. I recently bought a Nokia CK-1W hands free car kit which claimed compatibility with any phone supporting Bluetooth but despite successfully pairing the phone to the kit I am unable to use my e200 with it to make to answer calls. Furthermore, I have found countless postings on web forums to the same tune – it seems very few people can get the e200 to work with any Bluetooth car kit. Similarly, many people are having trouble sending files over Bluetooth to a laptop or get a headset working. I find this absolutely appalling, since you market the phone with this being one of its main features.

Secondly, the battery life of the unit is far removed from the quoted specifications. I find that I have to charge my phone up every day, and sometimes I am lucky to have 10 hours of charge and that’s without making calls. I have again found many similar complaints from others who attribute the poor performance to polling the SD card or Bluetooth’s drain. One person said that he only got 4 hours with Bluetooth enabled. Although I fully understand that the e200 has many features above a ‘normal’ phone and so general battery life comparisons are unfair, I still believe that the e200 should be able to last a reasonable amount of time with reasonable use; I do not think this is the case at present and it certainly is nowhere near the 3 days standby capacity you market it to have.

Another major disappointment is the availability of accessories. I have recently been informed that someone from Orange Accessories said that none of the accessories listed on the Orange Shop website under the e200 category are compatible with the e200. Apparently, “the items on the website are a mistake” and yet they are still listed there today. What’s going on? Also, the car kit listed there is the same Nokia kit that I have bought and it doesn’t work! I am absolutely sick of not being able to buy anything for this phone. I cannot even buy a case for it that doesn’t look like it should have glasses in it; I’ve had to buy an e100 case and take it out every time I want to use the camera, which will no doubt result in scratching at some time.

There are several other issues with the unit, including the GPRS connection staying on and incorrect header/email retrieval which you will be aware of, no doubt, judging from the numerous and easily accessible forum postings out there.

As an absolute minimum in a reply I would like specific answers to the following questions:

1. Why does the e200 Bluetooth not work with a Bluetooth car kit? Bluetooth is supposed to be a standard that works regardless of manufacturer and unless I have suitable resolution I am considering taking this matter further as I believe you are falsely advertising this product as it is not fit for purpose.

2. Why can’t I buy ANY accessories that will work with the e200 from you? I find it absolutely unbelievable that I cannot even get a car charger that works or phone holder that fits when I can get a Nokia one from Tescos for £5.

3. When are you releasing a software update to fix the bugs? I have heard rumours of March 2004 – can you confirm this? Are you going to address Bluetooth in this release?

4. What are you planning to do about the poor battery life? Do you think less than a day’s standby is acceptable? Given the absence of a specific phone holder or car charger, being able to recharge the unit is extremely limited.

It is genuinely not in my nature to feel I have to write and complain about anything, in fact this is the first letter of complaint I have ever written, but here I feel that the product you are selling does not meet your promised functionality on many counts and I am bitterly disappointed with your false claims about the product. You have hundreds of unsatisfied e200 customers out there; take a look at any of the several smartphone web forums and you will see that my issues are not isolated.

Although I find the e200’s ability over the SPV to be an improvement, the above issues have completely taken the shine off the upgrade, not least because of spending £130 on a car kit that I cannot use due to the e200’s inability. Whilst I enjoy the ‘extra’ functions the SPV range offer over and above standard phones, I am reluctantly nearing the point where I will sell the phone and buy something that I know will at least work and do what it says it can do.

I look forward to the courtesy of a quick reply to my questions and to hear your comments on the issues I have raised,

Simon Pollard

[Guest keeran]

Excellent letter, look forward to seeing the response.

Kee :O)

[Guest James]

good letter mate... hope you get a good reply..

Posted from my SmartPhone!

[Guest Polly2Carpets]

Thanks for the support :lol:

I love the e200 - it's far better than any 'normal' phone, but I'm so ragged off that you can't get anything for it or that it won't connect to my car kit (as you can maybe tell :wink: ).

I hope I get some answers too.

PTC

[Guest shadamehr]

Excellent, articulate, and reasonable letter mate.

Good luck to you, and please keep us posted...

[Guest londonlad]

if your on an expensive line rental tell em you'll downgrade and start using another network cos youve lost faith in them or something otherwise they dont fear losing anything (your custom)

[Guest dazza12]

Great letter. I have sent a letter to them today as well.

I bought the phone last week, I queried whether the phone was due to drop from it's price of £49.99 and was told that it will not be for at least a couple of months. Went in the Orange shop yesterday and it's free.

Also, I noted that the SD card that came free with the phone is not the one on their website. On calling customer services, I was told that it is free but needs to be ordered from them. However, the girl on the phone could not tell me any more.

I've threatened to drop my account from me paying £70-100 per month to the minimum account, and effectively transferring to O2 and get the O2 XDA2.

I was originally considering this phone along with the Moto MPx200 and the Handspring Treo 600. Wish I'd looked at one of the other 2 a little bit closer now.

[Guest jonski]

i work for this dept. these are valid points "As an absolute minimum in a reply I would like specific answers to the following questions: " im not going to attempt to reply here (ill leave that to whoever is assigned yr letter), however, points 3 + 4 we dont have a date for a software fix that i am aware of. (by the way i have an e200 and so appreciate yr comments). battery life, especially with bt active is poor and well documented on this site and others. im afraid yr going to get a standard response for those 2. the first 2 points i wasnt aware of... well do our best to get some answers for u.

just bear in mind that some of us here have the same phone and have the same issues!

however, we at correspondence are not a complaints dept. complaints are supposed to be dealt with on the call (csr, sup, manager etc etc). true we do spend some time "off line" and do have the time to check into issues more indepth, however we have no magic powers to provide all the answers and resolve all queries. all we can do is investigate and explain orange policies etc hopefully as clearly as possible.

[Guest Polly2Carpets]

Thanks, Jonski.

The reason I have sent this letter to the Correspondence Department is because I phoned Orange Customer Services and asked where a complaint should be sent. The girl gave me the address I quoted.

What's happening at Orange?

I know there are lots of e200 owners out there and that many of them feel the same way as I do. The reason they feel this way, I believe, is that many have spent a considerable amount of money on the product and subsequent incompatible accessories, many cannot get it to do what Orange market it to be able to do, and many are absolutely frustrated with being bounced about from one Orange employee to another if they try to bring their issues up with anyone.

I'm a Control & Instrumentation Engineer an if I were to behave this way at work there'd be some serious questions asked of me! How can it be that a company such as Orange are willing to let their name get tarnished with countless published stories of unsatisfied customers without just getting a grip of the matter and sorting it out?

I know I'm sounding off at you, and that's not fair, but you may be an influence here, especially if you own an e200 yourself. I haven't got to the point where I even want to threaten with lowering my tariff (although I know that I am well in my rights to do so). I'd much rather help to sort the product out. It's got the potential to be a great unit but it seems from everyone's experience that Orange seem reluctant to listen to their customer's genuine grievances.

I would like to see Orange set up a dedicated mechanism for collating and addressing issues with the e200. I don't know what they have just now for doing this but I have found it difficult to even raise the issues in the first place - and my journey with Orange complaints has hardly started!

I, like many others, no doubt, would be more than willing to work with Orange to iron out the bugs and, to be honest, downright failings of this phone and make it the unit it was born to be. Sort this out and we'd have hundreds of happy customers instantly.

If you know of an address where you think complaints would be better directed, please let me and everyone else know.

Cheers,

PTC

[Guest Mr_Protozoa]

I hope you get a reply too.

I agree with all of your points, especially the battery life - it's totally unacceptable. It's got to the point where I try not to make calls/play mp3's as frequantly as normal, so that the battery lasts a whole working day!

[Guest BlairWright]

I also bought the Nokia Car kit from the E200 Accessories section on the website, paid to have it installed, and it wont work (model is Nokia Cark-112 i think).

I get the usual symptoms of it connecting, entering pin and then nothing.. Now I see its no-longer on the Orange website as an E200 option!!! :shock:

Im going to call and try to get it sorted, however what are my options? Is there any model of Nokia car kit that works with the E200?

As I said, the unit is now installed and swaping the main box is going to be a lot simpler than a complete removal!!! Not to mention being out of pocket for the install and whatever the remedial action will be. :evil:

Thanks in advance.

Blair.

[Guest lowbug]

I agree i have been promised soo much by this phone and it DOES NOT DELIVER...

Anyone had>>>

the can't answer a call, operation failed

No car kit

crap battery life, lasts a day ???

B/T is pants...

sticky joystick

Dodgy volume bug

actually loads of bugs...

The case/screen scratches by just looking at it (my 6310 is well old and still looks better than my E200)

Who tests these phones? It took only 2 hours for the first bug report to arrive on here, HTC you let us down, Orange sort your suppliers out..

As for customer service most haven't heard of a E200! I get ' is it the motorola' :roll: Then you speak to this dept then they send you back again... The car kit has been promised before xmas, then Jan then end of Jan.. i've had 4 differenet dates only to be told Ora are 'making a kit' £5 says it comes without a radio mute :roll: How poor is that to release a phone without a car kit,

If i didn't sync email for me it would be in the bin. And that takes ages to set that up ( oh and unsupported by fax and data dept!! kinda the point of the phone!). I haven't the time to set the other E200 in the office up on it..

What a let down :) Great letter!

[Guest lowbug]

I also bought the Nokia Car kit from the E200 Accessories section on the website, paid to have it installed, and it wont work (model is Nokia Cark-112 i think).  

I get the usual symptoms of it connecting, entering pin and then nothing..  Now I see its no-longer on the Orange website as an E200 option!!!  :shock:  

Im going to call and try to get it sorted, however what are my options? Is there any model of Nokia car kit that works with the E200?  

As I said, the unit is now installed and swaping the main box is going to be a lot simpler than a complete removal!!!  Not to mention being out of pocket for the install and whatever the remedial action will be. :evil:  

Thanks in advance.  

Blair.

Ironically form a conversation with a chap in Carphone warehouse the Nokia is the worse BT to connect with. A better bet is the Sony Erricison one. But neither hold the phone in a fixed location or charge it.

[Guest Polly2Carpets]

Well, here it is, the official response from Orange following my initial letter of complaint. I'll make comment on it after you read this, (refer to my original letter - top of thread - for background detail):

Dear Mr_Pollard

Orange Account Number: xxxxxxxxxxx

Thank you for you letter dated 9 February 04, in which you detailed your views on the SPV E200.

Bluetooth is seen as a standard in data transfer. However with all the different manufacturers of handsets, headsets and car kits certain models only work with compatible devices. Despite the fact they all use Bluetooth manufacturers have different This does not just effect the SPV E200 a number of other handsets will only work with specific devices. However we are investigating the possibility of a problem with Bluetooth on the SPV E200 .

I cannot give any confirmation about software updates. Any updates will be developed by Microsoft and they will be launched on the website if Microsoft feel it a necessity.

Unfortunately I am unable to give you any information on accessories with a SPV E200 and can advise speaking with our accessories department on 0500 178178.

Any handset that has Bluetooth capability places a huge drain on a battery, I would therefore advise turning the Bluetooth off when not needed.

I hope that, in spite of your disappointment, my response has helped restore your confidence in us.

If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact us.

Andi Ford

Data Correspondence

Well, needless to say, I am far from pleased with the reply from Orange. To take their points in turn...

1. First of all they can't even finish their sentences! "Despite the fact they all use Bluetooth manufacturers have different........" Different what? Excuses? God only knows what they were going to say. The definition of Bluetooth is: "a wireless technology that enables any electrical device to wirelessly communicate in the 2.5 GHz ISM (license free) frequency band. It allows devices such as mobile phones, headsets, PDA's and portable computers to communicate and send data to each other without the need for wires or cables to link to devices together." It appears that this does not apply to Orange, however. Voice calls to a car kit is but another form of data transmittion between two devices that support the Bluetooth communication protocol. My return letter will point this out.

2. It seems to be a convenient fall-back to blame Microsoft for lack of news of updates. If Orange are marketing and selling these phones then, in my opinion, they have some responsibility to their customers and similarly, they should know what is planned in terms of upgrades, etc. for a phone they're selling.

3. I have called "Accessories" on this number and the girl I spoke to told me that Orange Accessories is not even a part of Orange! They are sub-contracted to sell accessories on behalf of Orange from a list they are given, and they are inundated with complaints and requests for accessories that simply aren't available. She suggested that I called "Handsets" on 0800 801080, which I did only to be redirected to "Customer Services" on 07973 100150...where I started!!! I called this number and explained the situation to the girl (Sorry, I know it's not your fault but hey, you took the job :wink: ). She asked if I would like a manager to call me back to which I replied "yes". I'm still waiting for the phone call back......they'll certainly be getting one tomorrow.

4. Whilst turning on Bluetooth will inevitably put more load on the processor resulting in quicker battery depletion, there are many other handsets that have the same functionality that do not suffer from such poor battery life. I do not believe this answer is satisfactory explaination of why we get 4 hours from our phones.

I believe I have received no more than a nearly completed "Orange Standard Reply Letter". I will compose a return letter in the very near future and post it here for all to see.

I personally am appalled that they market and sell a phone aimed at the "business" or "serious" consumer and yet it is totally unsusable for a large proportion of their target market.

I also am insulted to be sent an incomplete letter.

I am currently investigating the purchase of a Sony-Ericsson P900 and cutting my losses with the e200 by selling it on. Unless I get some form of satisfactory reply from them next time, I will be reducing my service plan to the minimum and leaving the network at the next possible opportunity.

What do you all think....?

[Guest lowbug]

I had the same 'Stuck in a loop' answer going round and round orange and Ora ( Ora, who are terrible for customer service are the clowns you speak to in "accessories").

Orange have lost the plot IMHO.. Sort it out! 6 months and no car kit...

Disgusting... What do you say team up for Watchdog?

[Guest lowbug]

I would like to point out i bought this phone told by 3 people in Orange and ORA that a car kit would be availble, which it needs because it hardly lasts 4 hours without dying of power..

Ann Robinson here we come!

[Guest Polly2Carpets]

The plot thickens...!

Take a look at this rather ropey webcast at microsoft:

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?...kb;en-us;329472

Basically, it's a discussion on connectivity and there's a section for Bluetooth. What I found interesting was they cover the supplementary "profiles" that come underneath the Bluetooth standard, one of those being the Hands Free Profile (HFP) v0.96

As mentioned in my last post, I am considering getting rid of the e200 and going for a Sony Ericsson P900. Having been once bitten with Bluetooth failings, I thought I'd do my homework tonight and make sure that if I spend £460 it's at least going to work. I came across forums exactly like this one (www.expansys.com have lots of postings) where people complain that they can't get it to connect to a car kit via Bluetooth...long and short of it is we are not alone!!!. So far, handsets that I have come across that share our Bluetooth woes are:

Sony Ericsson P900

O2 XDAII

...both marketed as "business" high-end handsets.

And what do we all have in common? The phones support a Headset profile but don't support the Handsfree profile necessary to connect to a car kit. Check out the profiles on your e200 - whilst there's a Headset and a Car profile, there's NO "Handsfree". I know, I know...why the hell have a "Car" profile? Ironic, isn't it?!

So it seems that Microsoft have developed a phone with the technology to enable handsfree talking without actually implementing the handsfree profile to allow it to be used!!! How poor is that?! Maybe I'll go out and buy a toaster that doesn't get hot or buy a car with no reverse gear...Come on, if you're designing a phone to use Bluetooth technology surely someone can spot that it needs to have the right profile. :shock:

What's worse than the e200 not fulfilling its specification is that I can't find ANY handsets out there that are worth having (anywhere near the spec of an e200) that can be used with a Bluetooth car kit so I can't even get rid and go to something else.

ALL IS (MAYBE) NOT LOST:

One posting in Expansys' forums on the XDAII quoted an O2 technical support guy saying that the lack of a handsfree profile is easily rectified with a ROM upgrade and that one was being developed. Maybe the solution to our problem is equally as simple(?)

Oh, I have come across postings too where P900 owners have commented on the battery life of their unit being 8ish hours when in normal use and 4 hours when Bluetooth is switched on.........

I am going to phone Orange in the morning to see what they have to offer and I intend to reply in writing to the letter they sent me. If I don't get a satisfactory outcome, then I will fully consider contacting Watchdog - there's enough voices of support out there. If nothing else, it's more pressure on Orange to get this sorted out.

Who's with me?

[Guest shampoo]

An alternative to going to watchdog might be to consider contacting your local trading standards - Orange advertise the phone on the website as having 3 days standby time, and 3 hours talk time, which is clearly a misrepresentation. Further, when you click on the bluetooth icon, the website indicates that it would be compatible with car kits.

Alternatively, you could consider the following...

As a consumer you have rights if a product supplied does not meet its specifications. If Orange supplied you with a mobile phone which you purchased on the basis it would have x amount of standby time, and the actual standby time is considerably less, then they have supplied a defective product. You are entitled to a refund, and you could write to Orange stating this. I would suggest that you put in writing that if they do not confirm in writing within a reasonable time period (perhaps 14 days) you will instigate action in the County Court (Small Claims Track). It will not cost you much to actually issue a claim, and if you do get this far, you can claim for your costs and interest at a (very generous) fixed rate. I have successfully issued a claim against a kitchen company I used, and the process is very easy, and your local court will be very helpful.

This isn't legal advice - I have no legal experience (other than having used the process before) but it might do you some good - if nothing else Orange are more likely to respond to you, as if they don't you'll win by default. Send me a message on here if you want more info about this, or contact your local CAB or county court for their advice leaflets (you can also do the whole thing online if you like - go to www.courtservice.gov.uk and click on "Money Claim Online")

I personally won't take this route because I'm willing to put up with the faults as it sounds like there is a patch on the way - I still think it's a good phone, and I like it.

[Guest A.Hughes]

I share your disappointment, the letter was a bit wet, a bit like saying, we have replied havnt we!!

I actually wrote to microsoft regarding the software issues and the E200 and got a reply..........

Microsoft is not responsible for the current failings on the E200 smartphone. they only supplied the softward and that it is up to orange to resolve all issues as they are suppliers to the market place and the consumer (which is us poor lot!).

With that in mind, it seema as though ORA have got themselves into a right pickle!!!

As Orange have recieved an award for the last three years as best operator, an appearance on watchdog would do wonders for their shameless dealings with the E200 phone.

Mark my words, watchdog would love to hilight the E200 fiasco, orange i doubt would not, if orange dont do something soon i thiunk that this action is more than 90% a reality...........

companies who have been exposed for similar failings on watchdog or with consumer groups, have had a tidal wave of litigation and court action, it takes a long time to rebuild credibility, and it cost countless thousands of pounds in revenue (profit for their shareholders).

Orange beware, do not be that arrogant that you believe your too big to take a bashing from us little old consumer guys, we are why you are in business, dont bite the hand that feeds you, other operators are offering better mealtickets!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Guest spacecowboy6982]

They had this coming - releasing such flawed product sin todays age is outrageous. THe response on the first page is utter nonsense :!:

I know theres a law act, of selling products just like the E-200 but is anyone really brave enough to pursue a case against Orange :?:

United we are strong and all that.........:?:

[Guest A.Hughes]

Very simple really, drop a line inviting Watchdog and the Consumers Association to take a look at the various topics and feedback on this forum and bobs your uncle, the consumer association are looking for feedback at this very moment on mobile phone operators, they would be horrified reading some of the issues on this forum.

All said and done, we are not complaining for the sake of it,,,,we just want to be happy bunnies with our phones!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest spacecowboy6982]

I believe that is the best solution. You can definitly count me in !!

[Guest A.Hughes]

If the moderators and Paul are in approval, what have we got too lose!!! At least something will happen, which is 100% more than what is happening at the moment, we know of a beta on an upgrade, but like everything when is it coming, patience isnt like "how long is a piece of string".

[Guest spacecowboy6982]

Very true. Report this thread to the mods & Paul - see what they say :?:

[Guest Disco Stu]

Might be embarassing for Paul though, given his (presumably) close relationship with O & MS