35 replies to this topic

[Confucious]

woogal, on May 2 2008, 13:48, said:

No, unlimited means it has no data limit

By whose definition? Yours? Certainly not the UK Government's whose official reply is

Quote

“The Government is aware of complaints by consumers to the Advertising Standards Authority that some Internet or telephone packages are being promoted as being ‘unlimited’ or ‘unrestricted’ in some way. Qualifying an ‘unlimited’ claim with a fair usage policy in the small print of an ad is allowed as long as it really is fair and not misleading. For example, if 80% of domestic customers fall well within the limit specified by a broadband provider and the remaining 20% fall outside of it, perhaps because they are using a domestic package for business use, then it may be considered a reasonable claim.”

Edited by Confucious, 02 May 2008 - 04:32 PM.

[Boinng]

Confucious, on May 2 2008, 17:32, said:

By whose definition? Yours? Certainly not the UK Government's whose official reply is

Well actually, the government does seem to be talking about data limits there (which is the generally accepted definition in this case), not the walled garden/wap-restricted model you've invented.

At the end of the day, most people would reasonably expect a service described as "unlimited internet" to be unlimited, and not involve a quota.  These fair usage caps may be perfectly legal (apparently) as long as they're properly explained in the advertising, but they still make a nonsense of the term "unlimited", which in anyone's dictionary simply means "without limits", not "without limits, apart from some limits we've set in the small print".

It's a bit like advertising an apple for ten pence, and then explaining in the small print that it's an orange.  Nonsensical, and clearly meant to decieve.

The funny thing is, when Vodafone originally sold me my £7.50 bundle, they made it perfectly clear on the phone that I was essentially buying 120mb for £7.50, there was no suggestion that it was "unlimited" or that the 120mb was merely a "fair usage" cap, and I probably wouldn't have believed it if there was.  It's odd that this bizarre marketing speak has since taken over and clouded the whole issue.  I understand that explaining concepts like 120mb or 500mb to the average non-savvy consumer may be difficult, but surely it's easier than making these "unlimited" promises they just can't keep?

Edited by Boinng, 03 May 2008 - 09:38 AM.

[Confucious]

I haven't 'invented' anything. I was just explaining that 'unlimited' in this case is used to mean unlimited access not unlimited data which ties in with what the Government. ASA etc all say is acceptable.500Mb is, for well over 80% of users (IMHO) effectively unlimited.
I'm not saying I agree with it, just that that is the accepted standard and if it is a FUP rather than a limit then I doubt if many people will actually be bothered by it.

[Boinng]

Confucious, on May 3 2008, 10:37, said:

I haven't 'invented' anything. I was just explaining that 'unlimited' in this case is used to mean unlimited access not unlimited data which ties in with what the Government. ASA etc all say is acceptable.

No, what you've quoted from the  government certainly doesn't support that.  They're not talking about access, they're talking about data, just as the poster you disagreed with was.  They're simply suggesting that "unlimited" in the context of data may be fair as long as the amount of data is well above that likely to be used by 80% of the customers.  That justification is nothing to do with access, or walled gardens, or wap vs. internet, as you were suggesting.

Quote

500Mb is, for well over 80% of users (IMHO) effectively unlimited.

"Effectively" perhaps, and the government obviously agree with that, but it's still literally untrue.  A 500mb limit (whether you call it a FUP or not) is still a 500mb limit, and that's not unlimited.  Other operators offer "unlimited" internet with a cap of 3GB, so Vodafone's "unlimited" data is limited to just a sixth of that offered by other's "unlimited" internet packages, which are themselves limited in any case - see how silly this is getting?

I completely understand the need for these limits, I'd just don't believe there's any sense to calling a limited plan "unlimited", regardless of the government's weak-headed line.

[Confucious]

I'm just pointing out the arguments used by ISPs in the past Vodafone clearly have a * by unlimited and clearly state the FUP. The 'argument' that 'unlimited' should mean no limit on data has been had many times before.
Personally, I have a 3Gb FUP and have very rarely gone above 500Mb. The 100/120Mb limits I have always argued are way to low for 3G speeds but were adequate for GPRS but 500Mb is plenty for most people.
The 'argument' that 'unlimited' should mean no limit on data is not one I care for and will now gracefully bow out to your greater knowledge and agree with you if that's what you want - makes no difference to me.

[woogal]

Boinng, on May 3 2008, 10:28, said:

The funny thing is, when Vodafone originally sold me my £7.50 bundle, they made it perfectly clear on the phone that I was essentially buying 120mb for £7.50, there was no suggestion that it was "unlimited" or that the 120mb was merely a "fair usage" cap, and I probably wouldn't have believed it if there was.  It's odd that this bizarre marketing speak has since taken over and clouded the whole issue.  I understand that explaining concepts like 120mb or 500mb to the average non-savvy consumer may be difficult, but surely it's easier than making these "unlimited" promises they just can't keep?

That's because the whole bundle has changed, not the way it's advertised. Before the 1st it was £7.50 for 120mb then you pay extra if you go over (just as it was sold to you). Now it's £5 with a fair use amount of 500mb. I think if you've got the old £7.50 one it has now automatically changed to the fair use bundle instead, but there's more info about that on the vodafone forum.

[Perfectionist]

Sounds good ..... but with true wireless broadband becoming a reality and a new generation of Internet Enabled phones on their way, which may (finally!) take Smart phones in to the mainstream ..... I think 500Mb will quickly become very limiting ..... hopefully T-Mob will fight back by offering a £5 WnW package with a FUP of 5Gb !!

[Confucious]

Wireless access isn't covered - it's only using their connection so I could download as much as I want over wireless.
T have been consistently good at revising their limits so they are 'sensible'. 40Mb was OK for WAP but when people started using the 'real' internet on their phones they revised it to 100Mb then when 3G came out it was revised to 1Gb unless you have tethering allowed on your plan when it's 3Gb - all. IMHO, very sensible limits and, I'm sure, if people start finding them to low, T will revise them again but I doubt if they have many (any?) people that fall foul of their current FUP.

[mcwarre]

What was this post about, again???

[Confucious]

mcwarre, on May 4 2008, 20:39, said:

What was this post about, again???

Nokias?

[xerxes]

woogal, on May 2 2008, 12:48, said:

No, unlimited means it has no data limit (you've always been able to browse whatever you like). It's fair use, not a limit, so you'll just get a warning or something if you keep going over 500mb, instead of being hit with a charge.

@Woogle,

Do you know that for a fact or is it a supposition?

Vodafone has always referred to "Fair Usage" an "Unlimited Browsing" on their previous bundles but it hasn't stopped them charging for every Kb over their unlimited limit in the past.

[Confucious]

A bit confused about the price - Vodaphone Mobile Internet - the box on the right says £7.50 but teh text says it's an add on for £5 / month (for contract customers) but the T&C do say it's a FUP BUT 'If we think your use is excessive or that you are abusing the service we may ask you to moderate your usage and/or we reserve the right to charge you for the excessive element of your usage at the standard out of bundle rate for your price plan.'

That last bit is a bit worrying as some people have got massive bills for going over (I mean thousands of pounds) whereas T-Mob will just warn you and then control the amount you can use if you go over two months on the trot they will never charge you.

PS - I still think it's a very good deal though - most people would struggle to exceed 500Mb or grt anywhere near it.
PPS - We're now going to get the usual arguments as to what's included as there is no mention of tethering, VOIP, FTP etc....

Edited by Confucious, 05 May 2008 - 09:19 AM.

[Boinng]

Confucious, on May 3 2008, 11:42, said:

(I) will now gracefully bow out to your greater knowledge and agree with you if that's what you want

Thanks!  Happy to help

[dunc]

To return this thread to topic - the most iniquitous thing about all this is that Vodafone have put all the £7.50/120MB customers on to the new plan (ie 500MB), but are continuing to charge those customers £7.50 for something that they are now giving to new customers for free. To put that in context - I have a plan that gives me 350 minutes for £40. I then pay a further £7.50 for the data bundle. Total: £Lots basically. However, if you look at their new tariffs I could have twice as many minutes, unlimited texts and 500MB for less money. The only way that they will give this to me is if I extend my contract by six months. Which sucks basically. Anyone got any ideas on how to approach this.

[Montala]

This is one ocassion I am glad I have a one month 'rolling' contract with O2... now if only they would offer a similar sort of deal, I really would be a happy bunny!

Edited by Montala, 09 May 2008 - 05:42 PM.

[Metoo]

dunc, on May 9 2008, 12:43, said:

To return this thread to topic - the most iniquitous thing about all this is that Vodafone have put all the £7.50/120MB customers on to the new plan (ie 500MB), but are continuing to charge those customers £7.50 for something that they are now giving to new customers for free. To put that in context - I have a plan that gives me 350 minutes for £40. I then pay a further £7.50 for the data bundle. Total: £Lots basically. However, if you look at their new tariffs I could have twice as many minutes, unlimited texts and 500MB for less money. The only way that they will give this to me is if I extend my contract by six months. Which sucks basically. Anyone got any ideas on how to approach this.

I was looking at new price plans and vodafone.co.uk today and noticed there was no mention of the much publicised 500MB bundle. All the price plans details show

Data Usage+ (First 15MB in a day) Up to £1.00 +  up to £1 for 15MB in a day. £2 for every additional MB.  

Web browsing (incl live!)** (First 15MB in a day) Up to £1.00 **  you can visit the Vodafone live! home page and My Account for free. Up to £1 for 15MB in a day. £2 for every additional MB.

The only mention of an "unlimited" package is under the Mobile Internet section - as an add-on to pay monthly contracts priced at £7.50/m.

So I spoke to Vodafone New Connections who revealed that although they were aware the offer wasn't mentioned on the web site, as a "special", they could "build" Mobile Internet in for £5/m instead of £7.50 if I signed up for it with the certain "selected" 18 month contracts. Only the first month would be free. If I decided to add it later, it would be £7.50/m, as it always has been.

The Vodafone press release statement claim that  "pay monthly customers will no longer need to buy an additional internet bundle for £7.50 but instead every plan will automatically include internet access." is cleverly worded. In fact all they are actually saying is that all new Pay Monthly SIMS are data enabled so that internet access is possible without reconfiguration, and that the previous FUP has beeen increased to 500MB. In a strict sense their statement is true, which is why they got away with it. You don't actually  need to buy the £7.50 bundle to have access the internet. But to use it, you will have to  either pay the daily per-MB rates shown above, or buy a data bundle as before.

The key expressions they throw in about internet access being "without ... additional charges" and "with no extra costs" are more word play - all it means is that the costs are fixed. Not that they are free, or included, in a standard contract.

Although the obvious intention of the press release wording is to suggest the opposite (or at best be ambiguous), the "new" "unlimited" 500MB Internet service is neither included, nor free.  To this day, it's not included in the published web site pricing or plan details, it's not mentioned on the Mobile Internet page, it costs a minimum of £5 on top of the advertised tarrifs, and you have to ask for it to get it.

As I pointed out at the time, the whole thing is just an excercise in marketing speak. It just shows how poor journalism is these days, when spin like this is blindly taken at face value - even by major "industry" commentators. All the media just lapped it up and spouted out the headlines, without even so much as a glance at the small print.

What's even more galling, is that people are still being misled that the bundle is "free", even by respected sites like this, which continue to support the myth long after the error has been pointed out. I note the "editorial" on the news article STILL hasn't been corrected.

"to get half a gig of data bundled into your price plan for free is pretty blooming awesome IMHO!"

Edited by Metoo, 20 June 2008 - 04:47 PM.