Argument over network coverage in the US

[Guest raerae28]

Y do I keep hearing people talking about quad band GSM? This is one of those things I wouldnt even worry about right now. Point blank....if AT-T and T-Mobile and Cingular all said hey lets do 850 it would be years before this would become a standard and thus requiring someone to get a different phone.

1900 is BRAND NEW in the country for all intense purposes, I dont think you will see it going any where soon, and since T-Mobile has the biggest GSM coverage and the other two vendors dont, what makes you think they are going to turn their backs and not pick up the dollar they get from T-mobile users roaming on their networks.

Drop the quad band worry, its not really important right now.

[Guest McHale]

Quad-band - Cingular and AT&T are already running 850. In fact, most of Cingular's GSM footprint is 850 now. If you check out Cingular and AT&T, you will notice they are selling the dual-band gsm phones (850 and 1900). It's unfortunate, but true. So, as far as a standard goes, you're too late. All of Illinois is 850 already. Thank God AT&T and T-Mobile are running 1900 in some of the overlapped areas so I can still use my tri-band phone. P.S. Cingular has the largest GSM footprint in the US now. Cingular has an agreement with T-mobile to share coverage area and Cingular also has an agreement with AT&T to share coverage area.

VAT - Value Added Tax. This is only charged to residents of that country. This is how they get their income tax. When I worked in Italy, I was either able to purchase everything without VAT, or if I couldn't, I had to submit paperwork to the government for a refund.

The developer model is nothing but the phone with the latest ROM which is SIM-free and APP-free. I've been using one at work for testing purposes and have spoken to the Orange rep. It's exactly the same.

Midnight has a great idea. That may be the cheapest way to go. When they finally start putting out the intel-based phones with quad band, I may end up doing that...

-Mc

[Guest raerae28]

McHale,

All I am saying is, people are caught up on this like it will be a big deal. Dont you think that there is a REASON why all the vendors are say either 1900 or something AND 1900. Do you think they would even include the 1900 if that was not the targeted standard?

I know what cingulars coverage area on GSM is, and its NOT the largest GSM coverage area. Check gsmworld.org for the stats.

My point to this is....we all keep talking about quad band phones. Its not the first time i have heard this "sky is falling" type of statement, and it dawns on me that not a lot of people really understand whats happening in the US as far as GSM is concerned.

Just to give myself a sanity check, I will be giving our companies Cingular rep a call this week, and getting to the bottom of the GSM coverage thingie and the quad band thingie and let you guys know what the deal is if its non-NDA information.

R.W.

[Guest McHale]

I am a Cingular rep. So let me get that out of the way first.

If Cingular uses all of T-Mobile and all of AT&T's GSM coverage as a home coverage area along with their own, how could anyone have more in the US? AT&T gets to use Cingular's. T-Mobile get's to use Cingulars. But neither one gets to use anyone elses. GSMWorld.org is WAY old. Since then, the roaming agreements happened. Before that happened, Cingular merely had the west coast and a little of the east coast in GSM.

As far as the 1900/850 debate. It's a matter of spectrum. The US is licensed for 850 and 1900 whether it be analog, TDMA, CDMA, or GSM. T-Mobile only owned bandwidth in the 1900 spectrum. Cingular and AT&T own both 850 and 1900. I've been using GSM since the initial launch and I'm running 850. If I'm roaming on T-Mobile's network, I'm on 1900. It's not a matter of targeted standard. 1900 just hit in the US first. Here shortly, you won't be able to buy a GSM phone without the 850 on it for AT&T and Cingular if you plan on getting a national plan. I have a coverage map for GSM if you're interested. You'd be amazed how much 850 is out there today. Believe me, I'm not happy about it either. I wanted a Smartphone a LONG time ago and I have to wait. :lol:

-Mc

[Guest raerae28]

Awwwwh! This is not good.

So basically what you are saying is Cingular and AT-T have made conscience decisions to only use 850mhz?

What will then happen to 1900? Is this the ploy of companies like cingular and At-t to not be outdone by T-mobiles headstart in the 1900mhz space, or purely for infrastructure costs and conversion purposes?

Thanks for the information, I called our companies rep today, but as you probably know it will take that rep to contact someone higher up and then hopefully get an answer, but it will come soon. I have noticed the lag in availability of GSM from Cingular in the Atlanta area, and recently had my service turned off, even though I noticed that a few phones given out by Cingular have SIM chips and if placed in an unlocked phone will let you use the device.

Tested this theory in an Accompli 009(wonder if it does 850mhz) which was a engineering prototype from about 2 yrs ago. Before the device was ever really known to the public.

We should compare notes sometimes about this....

R.W.

[Guest McHale]

Awwwwh! This is not good.

So basically what you are saying is Cingular and AT-T have made conscience decisions to only use 850mhz?

What will then happen to 1900? Is this the ploy of companies like cingular and At-t to not be outdone by T-mobiles headstart in the 1900mhz space, or purely for infrastructure costs and conversion purposes?

R.W.

believe me... I wasn't happy. What the deal is, if they had decided to go 1900, they would have to get all new tower equipment where the 850 TDMA towers are. By going to 850 GSM, they can reuse some equipment and cut costs down while overlaying it over existsing TDMA. Also, as luck would have it, 850 is actually better for rural areas as the signal strength is a little better.

They are not *ONLY* using 850, they are just overlaying 850 GSM where 850 TDMA already exists. Cingular and AT&T have 1900 scattered about the US. I know AT&T is pushing out 850 in places but I'll be curious to see if T-Mobile also starts rolling it out or if they stick to 1900 (which I would do if I were them) or decides to partake in the additional coverage.

But as a confirmation, I'm in IL and my GSM phone is running on the 850 band unless I'm roaming on AT&T or T-Mobile. If I pull out my trustee Motorola Timeport tri-band, it sees AT&T and T-Mobile only.

Can you upload pics so they show as pics or will they show as attachments? I can upload a pic that shows a breakdown of what is 1900 and 850...

-Mc

[Guest raerae28]

Probably have to put a link to them on a website to get them to show embedded as pictures.

Attaching it will just show it is attached I think.

R.W.

[Guest Monolithix [MVP]]

They will show as pic's, linked to or attached :lol:

[Guest McHale]

here's the GSM coverage map for Cingular as of today...

California, Georgia, Tennessee, Idaho, NY, Nevada, North and South Carolina, Virginia, and Washington are 1900. ALL THE REST is 850.

:lol:

Overall, the GSM coverage isn't bad. I will put it up against T-Mobile or AT&T anyday...

-Mc

CING_GSM_GEN_NATL.jpg

[Guest Monolithix [MVP]]

Looking at that map explains pretty much why mobiles have taken off over here so much more than in the US...

[Guest McHale]

nah, that's just GSM which is relatively new here in the U.S.

CDMA, TDMA, and analog have the nation completely covered. Don't forget that GSM came along well after we went to TDMA or CDMA for digital. GSM is basically enhanced TDMA.

Also, don't forget that everyone (well, nearly everyone) has a landline phone and uses the wireless phone as a secondary phone. Some places in Europe or Asia can't GET landline phones and wireless is the only (and much cheaper) option.

As wireless rates come down (and people from the US find out that nobody else has to pay for incoming calls or SMS messages) people will start dropping landline coverage. Everybody calls my cell first, home second...

-Mc

[Guest nickcornaglia]

Please don't pay over $400.00 in the US for a phone. There are at least 10 UK phones listed on eBay at any time. I just bought mine that way in excellent condition for US$400.00

I've seen some go for as low as $250 having slightly scratched screens.

I lost a bid for a NEW ONE with no reserve for around $300 because I wasn't quick enough in the last seconds of the auction.

[Guest aiwapro]

Mostly, if not all of that coverage on that map is T-Mobile. Cingular has GSM in few places, and roams off of T-Mobile everywhere else. That is something that Cingular rep failed to make clear.

I know that map is just T-Mobile coverage because I live in a place on that map where there is NO Cingular coverage, but that map shows that they do have coverage there. I just did a network search on my phone, and no Cingular.

In the U.S., T-Mobile has the largest GSM coverage area by far, with AT&T and Cinguar way behind. AT&T has more GSM than Cingular, but they haven't connected coverage yet.

[Guest McHale]

Mostly, if not all of that coverage on that map is T-Mobile.  Cingular has GSM in few places, and roams off of T-Mobile everywhere else.  That is something that Cingular rep failed to make clear.  

What I mean is, EVERYTHING on that map is considered HOME calling area. There is no roaming even if you are on T-Mobile or AT&T. Who cares who's tower it is? That's how roaming agreements work. I'm on a nation plan and regardless what my phone says, as long as there's GSM coverage, it doesn't cost me any extra.

And as far as how much is T-Mobile's, it's not as much as you think. Even though some areas have been penetrated by T-Mobile by now, Cingular is overlaying 850 ANYPLACE they had TDMA. Also, through the companies that became Cingular (like bellsouth) that were already GSM (like the entire west coast) T-Mobile is using us.

You have to realize, that when someone owns the spectrum in a certain geographical area, a competitor can't put up towers there as well. It's against the law.

When you look at a company's coverage map, you aren't looking at the tower's THEY own, you're looking at where it's going to work and where it's not going to cost you extra money for roaming. Next time you look at a T-Mobile map, rest assured some of that coverage is because they are using Cingular's towers.

Do a search on Google and you can find the roaming agreement - what coverage areas were traded for what. All I know is, there's not enough 1900 to make me go straight GSM. 850 is making it less painful though but there isn't a Smartphone that is quad-band yet so I have to wait. ;)

-Mc

[Guest aiwapro]

I'm not stupid. T-Mobile only roams on Cingular in about 5 ok the 50 United States. Cingular is building more coverage, but they and AT&T are years behind T-Mobile. It's a fact. Going 850 is money saving to them, but all they are doing is isolating them and their customers from the rest of the world. They will lose alot of customers (more than they already did to T-Mobile in California), because their customers will want the book phones such as the person in this thread that want the SPV, but it doesn't have the 850 band, and neither does any of the really nice phones that have currently been released (3650, 7250, P800, SPV, etc.). Also, as far as that Bell South that already had GSM, they didn't have much out west. They only had like 3 states, and T-Mobile as I noted earlier took all of those customers from the one state. You need to get your facts straight before trying to posting bad info to others. T-Mobile owns almost that whole map, and you know it. Compare the maps, they should be identical. Explain why Cingular wanted to buy T-Mobile U.S., why, because T-Mobile had and still has all of the coverage that both Cingular & AT&T still need. Atleast AT&T is trying to build out their GSM, Cingular is moving at a very slow pace.

[Guest McHale]

1. I never said you were stupid. Don't try to turn this into a personal thing.

2. I'm not representing Cingular on here. I'm an engineer who just happens to work for Cingular which gives me a little insight to what the facts are.

3. 850 is basically brand new. The Motorola v600 is the first quality quad band phone coming out and it looks like a quality phone.

4. T-Mobile STILL has pitiful coverage. Face it. Verizon covers the entire US. Cingular's TDMA covers the entire US. Cingular just decided to go GSM a year or so ago. And while T-Mobile may have overlapping coverage in some of those areas, it's not true that Cingular doesn't have coverage there. Don't make up facts when you don't know the truth. If you'd like, I can send you the map of what we have and what AT&T has and what T-Mobile has. Hell, Cingular has even paid some mom and pop TDMA outfits to go GSM just so the coverage would be there. It's Cingular's goal to be strictly GSM here shortly with EDGE by the end of the year.

T-Mobile's map will never be identical to Cingular's because we also have the same agreement with AT&T, which T-Mobile does not. T-Mobile and AT&T have no agreement between each other. Neither of them can claim the coverage Cingular can for that reason alone.

5. What I don't understand is, why are you giving Cingular so much flack for coverage when there is such a thing as roaming agreements? Why do you care who's tower you're using as long as you're getting coverage? Believe me, I'm the first to stand in line to say I hate 850. I wanted the whole US to be 1900 if for no other reason, because EVERYBODY'S phone is already 1900. My first GSM phone was the Motorola P7389 which I bought in Italy. When I first tried to use it in the US, there was ZERO coverage in Chicago. Now, T-Mobile has done a great job covering Chicago as well as some major interstates here. It took them 2 years to get it done. By the end of this year, Cingular will have 95% of their market covered in GSM. T-Mobile isn't close to doing that.

6. Cingular didn't try to buy T-Mobile because they needed the coverage. Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free? We HAVE their coverage already. T-Mobile was on the sale block because they aren't as profitable as they would like to be and buying it would allow Cingular to own the FCC licenses in their markets where they couldn't afford to put up towers (and getting the free towers and coverage was a nice little bonus).

7. AT&T is also slapping up 850 instead of 1900 in their TDMA markets to save equipment costs. Also, the 850 band yields better signal strength than 1900 does. So if you can get better coverage in rural markets as well as save equipment costs *AND* there's vendors jumping in line to provide the equipment, looks like you're the only one who thinks it's not going to work.

What are you trying to prove? 1900 is better than 850? Fine. You don't like 850 because it hasn't been around as 1900. Trust me, in a year's time, every GSM phone sold in the US will have 850 on it (except those sold at a REALLY big discount). Every world phone sold else where will also have 850 on it. You must be too young to remember the fight that people put up when TDMA/CDMA started out and people compared it to AMPS.

I'm trying to get a GSM coverage map for the US that displays only the 1900 and another that displays only the 850. I can't dig one up. I'm curious if I go with an SPV right now, where will I not have coverage if I had one that had 850? If Cingular were strictly 1900, I'd have had an SPV a *LONG* time ago. I'm dying to make it my sole phone and stop carrying my PDA.

P.S. With Cingular being the number 2 carrier in the US and being the number 1 GSM carrier in the US, don't you think that the Smartphone companies are going to cater to the 850 band if it's going to mean a whole new market? I'm waiting. It's just a short matter of time before 850 is supported. It's not going away.

-Mc

[Guest aiwapro]

First of all Cingular IS NOT the largest GSM provider in the U.S. Where in the world did you get that from.

The reason why Cingular wanted to buy T-Mobile is because they need the coverage. Ok, they do have roaming agreements with T-Mobile, but Cingular isn't making any money there, because they can't sell customers service in those areas. They are only losing money by paying T-Mobile roaming fees.

As I was saying, there is a huge difference about have a roaming partner, and actually having your own coverage there. You can't get new customers if you don't have your own coverage.

Another thing about the romaing you're talking about. T-Mobile doesn't need AT&T as a roaming partner, for what? T-Mobile already has GSM coverage in all the places that AT&T is currently trying to put up GSM coverage. It would be a waste of roaming fees. Also, T-Mobile doesn't plan to use the 850MHz band of GSM, so it wouldn't do them any good to get invovled to much with what AT&T and Cingular are doing. Those two are going to dig themselves in a whole is what's going to happen. AT&T doesn't have the money to do anything that's going to backfire on them, and even Cingular's owners Bellsouth and SBC have thought about getting away from the wireless. I believe it was SBC that wanted or still does want to get out of the Cingular situation. This is no problem if Cingular can stand on it's own, but I don't think it can. This happened with AT&T when their wireless division spun-off from the rest of the AT&T company, but they had their name to stand on. Cingular does not. Cingular doesn't have the name presence everywhere like AT&T did for phone service & long distance. In my area, Cingular doesn't exist; We just started seeing their commercials, but that is wasteful marketing because they have no stores, employees, kiosks, and I forget the mention, NO COVERAGE here, so why advertise.

Cingular's position in the U.S. will drop. The only reason they are #2 in the U.S. in customers, is because the company was just put together by companies that already had the customers. They didn't build anything. They didn't have to market much to get customers, because they were already there.

What, T-Mobile has pitiful coverage in he U.S., what planet are you living on. There coverage is great, and they have the biggest GSM footprint in the U.S. They bought in almost 1 million customers in the 4th quarter of last year, while other carriers were just losing customers, and barely gaining any. T-Mobile has lead the net gain of customers for that last couple of quarters. Verizon is the only other company to come close to them, but they too had a quarter where they loss more customers (184,000), than they gained, thus having no net gain.

You also said that Cingular will have GSM in 95% of their market by the end of the year, that's a lie. Then you said they will have EDGE in place everywhere by the end of the year, and that's a lie too. Come on now, you say you're an engineer. Even if everything was to be perfect, there is no way in he** that they will have EDGE done by the end of the year.

Whether you agree or not, T-Mobile will continue to be the #1 GSM provider in the U.S. They have more than just GSM going for them. They are running wi-fi with thousands and thousands of hotspots across the U.S.

[Guest awarner [MVP]]

Play nice all ;)

[Guest McHale]

aiwapro,

first, it's obvious you're a know-it-all and not willing to listen to anyone so I'm wasting my time here. But I'm going to try to explain it so even you can understand it...

FCC licenses are there for a reason. Cingular can't put up towers just anywhere they please. Don't you realize that? T-Mobile has the greatest GSM coverage in the US. Wow... what an accomplishment. If I slapped up a UMTS tower in my backyard, that would make the leading UMTS provider in the US. What's your point? If you had to survive on their coverage alone, you would only get coverage in about 40% of the entire US. I'm impressed. While Cingular and AT&T are using their towers and service in many parts of the nation, where it is most important is who can offer the best coverage for the consumer at the lowest cost. But if you want to pay more and get less coverage, I'll sign you up to my UMTS tower as well as your T-Mobile.

Cingular is offering a greater GSM footprint than T-Mobile or AT&T can. I didn't say it was all Cingular's towers, I said they would offer the consumer the greatest GSM footprint. Compare the coverage maps and you should be able to see what I'm talking about. Everyone else does. And I'm don't know if you read tech news or not, but the press releases have been out for a long time that cingular plans on having almost all of the GSM out by the end of the year. Do you think I made that up? And I'm telling you. They are hoping to have EDGE by the end of the year. What's so hard to accept about that?

http://www.cingular.com/about/latest_news/03_03_17_4

"Cingular said that more than 90 percent of its POPs - and all of its major markets - will have GSM service by the end of the year."

I suggest you check out the FCC website and see how much spectrum T-Mobile owns vs. cingular. You're on some pretty bad drugs if you think that T-Mobile is even in the same league there.

I'd give you some pointers to articles on several tech websites but you probably have some conspiracy theory to explain all that.

Let's say, for sake of argument that you're right and T-Mobile stays strictly 1900. Wouldn't you want your phone to handle 850 for those times that 850 is there and 1900 is nowhere to be found? If you say no, you're just plain ignorant.

By the way, Cingular *OWNS* the markets in california and nevada, despite what your rambled earlier... at least according to T-Mobile:

http://www.t-mobile.com/company/pressroom/...ssrelease19.asp

"Cingular Wireless and VoiceStream Wireless have entered into an infrastructure joint venture that will allow Cingular to offer service in New York City, and VoiceStream to provide service in California and Nevada."

Put your facts where your loudmouth is... I'm done here.

-Mc

[Guest martin]

Typical Americans: 'Mine is bigger than yours'. ;)

They are not *ONLY* using 850, they are just overlaying 850 GSM where 850 TDMA already exists

GSM is based on TDMA (Time Division multiple access), we are using GSM900 and GSM1800 in the UK. What do you mean by overlaying GSM with TDMA ?

You have to realize, that when someone owns the spectrum in a certain geographical area, a competitor can't put up towers there as well. It's against the law.

Yes you CAN put up towers in the same area. You're just not allowed to transmit on a frequency that has been liscenced to another operator.

"Cingular Wireless and VoiceStream Wireless have entered into an infrastructure joint venture that will allow Cingular to offer service in New York City, and VoiceStream to provide service in California and Nevada."

This sounds like site sharing. In the Uk, we can have up to four operators sharing the same tower (infrastructre), each with their own equipment. These type of agreements are being made all over the world to cut costs and increase coverage. Site sharing is not a roaming agreement.

[Guest awarner [MVP]]

McHale and aiwapro

Last chance to play nice, anymore insults

being thrown will not be tolerated.

At the end of the day you both believe you are right, just agree on that.

[Guest McHale]

;)

GSM is based on TDMA (Time Division multiple access), we are using GSM900 and GSM1800 in the UK. What do you mean by overlaying GSM with TDMA ?

What they are doing is, anyplace they have TDMA, they are putting up GSM as well on the same frequency. So on the same tower, they will be running TDMA and GSM. There are way too many people who are strictly TDMA (and WAY WAY WAY too many people still analog) to remove TDMA in favor of GSM. Operating costs are lower for GSM so to encourage everyone to go to GSM, they are offering REALLY good deals on GAIT (TDMA/GSM/AMPS) phones as well as strictly GSM phones.

Yes you CAN put up towers in the same area. You're just not allowed to transmit on a frequency that has been liscenced to another operator.

agreed...

"Cingular Wireless and VoiceStream Wireless have entered into an infrastructure joint venture that will allow Cingular to offer service in New York City, and VoiceStream to provide service in California and Nevada."  

This sounds like site sharing. In the Uk, we can have up to four operators sharing the same tower (infrastructre), each with their own equipment. These type of agreements are being made all over the world to cut costs and increase coverage.  Site sharing is not a roaming agreement.

Nope. It's not tower sharing in this case. What Cingular and T-Mobile are doing is allowing each other to roam on it's network free of charge in exchange for the same deal in a different market. This will allow both companies to focus on building their networks in areas where there is no GSM coverage instead of worrying about putting up coverage where there already is coverage. It's still very early yet for GSM in the US so everyone first needs to focus on coverage. After coverage is taken care of, than they can start worrying about putting up their own towers in those markets where they have heavy utilization.

I myself have been a big fan of GSM since I first used it in Italy. It was so nice to have one phone that worked everywhere (as opposed to having conflicting technologies like here in the states with CDMA, TDMA, and I-DEN.

For those that haven't purchased a GSM phone yet, I'd wait just a little while for one that you are going to be happy with for a long time. I don't see anyone going to UMTS soon and 4G is just a bad idea. EDGE technology will yield much faster speeds than GPRS and I think that once that's in place, everyone here is going to stay there until they recoup their costs.

So as I have stated many times before... I'm waiting until the MS Smartphones are quad-band with EDGE support. Because I don't want to have to buy this thing more than once. I already have several pocket PC's lying around not being used.

-Mc

[Guest martin]

What they are doing is, anyplace they have TDMA, they are putting up GSM as well on the same frequency. So on the same tower, they will be running TDMA and GSM

What I was trying to say is that GSM is a consortium who define standards for GSM (global system for mobile communications) networks and TDMA (as opposed to CDMA) is part of the second generation GSM network design. What you are saying is that you have two TDMA networks in parallel using the same frequency band. What was the previous TDMA network ?

Nope. It's not tower sharing in this case. What Cingular and T-Mobile are doing is allowing each other to roam on it's network free of charge in exchange for the same deal in a different market

Fair enough

As far as EDGE goes this will require new transceivers and I suspect many networks will just bypass EDGE and concentrate on 3G, in the UK anyway.

[Guest McHale]

What you are saying is that you have two TDMA networks in parallel using the same frequency band. What was the previous TDMA network ?

Yes.

The original TDMA is 1G. GSM is 2G. Both networks are running simultaneously on the same tower, same network. Here in the US, we are calling it GSM overlay and the official term is called GAIT.

The first GAIT handset Cingular offered was the Nokia 6340i which supports GSM 850/1900 Mhz, TDMA 800/1900 Mhz, and AMPS 800 Mhz.

http://www.nokiausa.com/phones/6340i

The second was the SonyEricson T62u (which has GPRS which the 6340i doesn't have)

http://www.sonyericsson.com/us/spg.jsp?pag...3DPSM_V_600x450

Here's a good article that explains it:

http://www.wirelessdevnet.com/news/2002/350/news8.html

favorite quotes:

"Cingular will continue deployment of GSM/GPRS in 2003. Ninety percent of the covered population and all major markets should be complete by the end of next year. (article was written in 2002 so it means by 2003)"

"Cingular is now also beginning to test a software upgrade for its 3G technology -- called EDGE. As part of its current GSM deployment, radios in GSM overlay markets are already EDGE hardware capable. By the end of 2003, all of Cingular's major markets will be both hardware and software enabled for 3G. "

T-Mobile hasn't got the funds or support to reach 90% population coverage by the end of the year.

I rest my case.

-Mc

[Guest martin]

It seems that America's terminology for 1G, 2G, TDMA and GSM are used very differently to here in Europe (where the standard was created). I'm going to put my neck out at say that I thought 1G was the original GSM network design built around 900MHz band which was followed by the second generation network built around 1800MHz (originally called DCS1800 and now known as GSM1800). I'm not too clear on the history of GSM but it's just one those 'I thought it was' things.

Deploying EDGE on 2G networks is fine but again this will mean new handsets as it uses a different phase shift. I think is something like PSK8 and uses 3 bits per shift instead of 2. It doubles the data rate by means on coding but with 3G CDMA on the horizon, its might be down to handset sales and what the customers want to buy.