Guest meatgrinder Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 i was wondering about the java on spv - and i HAVE done a search on the forum ;) a few thigns are left unclear for me, can i use nokia/siemens/motorola games on the spv? if not, what games CAN i use, what type of fones games work ? thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest meatgrinder Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 wow, not one reply :) i've been thinking, using j2exe (for example) it is possible to compile java games into .exe format, allowing them to run independent, but, is it possible to convert .exe files from windows into a smartphone compatible .exe? any tips would be great Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest maxh2003 Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 No offence, mate, but it can't have been the world's best search you ran. The answer you need, though not the one you want, is in (moderator) Will's post, on topic "JAVA on SPV ? It's possible !!!", posted Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:18 pm: Any post requesting links will be removed.Here's Will's post in full. To summarise, you need a download only legally available to Mitac owners. The mitac software is copyrighted, and only for download from mitac, requests for emails/download links will be removed. When mitac had it available for public download this was tolerated, but now you have to submit an imei and serial number to obtain it. Any post requesting links will be removed. Repeat offenders will be given official warnings. Of course if you OWN a mitac, just goto their site........ Will _________________ On tour back sunday! :edit: While I remember, your j2exe idea is a complete non-starter. A PC EXE won't do, it must be a Smartphone 2002 EXE file. I don't think you'll be able to find a j2exe that produces Smartphone 2002 EXEs. Your only hope is to either get the Java VM downloads from Mitac - which these days involves buying a Mitac phone - or writing your own Java interpreter using Visual C++ :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wbloore Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 No offence, mate, but it can't have been the world's best http://smartphone.MoDaCo.com/search.php>Search you ran. The answer you need, though not the one you want, is in (moderator) Will's post, on topic "JAVA on SPV ? It's possible !!!", posted Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:18 pm: Here's Will's post in full. To summarise, you need a download only legally available to Mitac owners. :edit: While I remember, your j2exe idea is a complete non-starter. A PC EXE won't do, it must be a Smartphone 2002 EXE file. I don't think you'll be able to find a j2exe that produces Smartphone 2002 EXEs. Your only hope is to either get the Java VM downloads from Mitac - which these days involves buying a Mitac phone - or writing your own Java interpreter using Visual C++ :) No offence maxh2003, but I think you misread the original post. He wasn't asking for a link to the java software for the Mitac. Will's post does not cover the question the original poster asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest maxh2003 Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 OK, I think I see what you mean - if a Java game is designed for Nokia/Siemens/Motorola, will it run (properly) on an SPV? Best answer I can give is that I think I've seen Nokia and Siemens JAVA games run OK(-ish) under the IBM MIDP that the Mitac Java download uses. Don't remember seeing any Java games designed for Motorola running on SPV. Personally I thought that the Mitac java machine was a nice technical curiousity (proves it can be done...!) but ran far too slowly to be of any real use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jtsaint Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 java2exe is NOT what you think it is. It is a very usefull tool but what it does is wrap and executable around the class calling. Basically it looks for the Jaa virtual machine and then exceutes the java classname call to instantiate it. There is no java vm on smartphone so it cant possibly work. I can understand the confusion but java2exe does not convert java byte code into native executable code it just makes it a lot easier for the average windows user to launch a java application. No diss to duckware because it is a very very usefull app hence my subscription. This is probably boring now but. Java VM is a middle man in between a computers operating system ( hardware interface ) and an application. Java is exciting because as long as you have the correct java virtual machine for your OS / Hardware then you can run any app that is written in java. The java vm is written is a given machines native executable and interprets java byte code which is a result of compiling java code. So I write an application/game and dont have to worry about what platform you have as long as it supports java. MS dont like java cause it cuts straight into there future markets. .NET got a lot of hype becuase MS marketed it with a big budget but all it was was a realisation of the Java principals five years late. A Java vm for smartphones would be truly excellent but we will have to wait for smartphones to become popular enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest midnight Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 there is a java vm, but its only available for Mitac smartphone, it did leak out when it first arrived but Mitac have now closed that hole in their website ps, java sucks :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jtsaint Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 java sucks at ? No lets not start this or we could be here alday. Java is the way forward for all applications. But lets let time proove my point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest marv083 Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 and another thing java midlets can be played in the spv only up to 34 k i think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest midnight Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 java sucks at ? No lets not start this or we could be here alday. Java is the way forward for all applications. But lets let time proove my point pretty simple really, java isnt powerfull enough to do the games we are doing, in fact, almost all java games are real nasty (low frame rates, sluggish gameplay etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest meatgrinder Posted December 14, 2003 Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 well, there are very few smartphone games that are agood.. i can work out that the java games are not the way ahead, but atm, there are a lot of java games ( www.gameloft.com ) which kick the ass of most smartphoen games. I KNOW smartphone games are just starting, but until they get good, we need sum good games to pass the time. i have purchased more or less every decent smartphone game around, and a lot impress me, but vew make me wanna play them. basically, java might suck for games, but because there is a HUGE amount of people to sell java sh**e to, the games are good. even though smartphone games are very impressive, the gameplay generally sucks after 5-10 and because there is a tiny (in comparison) amount of people who play games on smartphone, no particularly good games get made. please dont tell me things will pick up, i know this, have been told it for months now, and nothin does... Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fraser Posted December 15, 2003 Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 The Smartphone Java run-time environment (the one you can't download anymore) is very slow and inefficient. For Java games to become viable on the phone, this would need vast improvements. This could be unlikely, due to Microsoft's promotion of .Net and historical "differences" over Java. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest damianlewis Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 It's funny to see a lot of nonsense written here. Some facts to pour petrol on the flames: 1. Java is the language of choice for most new games being programmed in real games production houses at the moment. Java 3D is easier to handle for their coders than C++/OpenGL and runs on more platforms. 2. What do you think all those Symbian phones (Motorola, etc.) are running their games on? 3. Java is faster than C++ in most areas, except native device calls - i.e. talking to hardware. But the Java Native Interface gets around that to give you the same speed as C++ without the overhead. 4. The only reason most people think Java is slow is that they are used to running badly coded applets on Microsoft's crippled Java Virtual Machine in Internet Explorer. I repeat - Java is faster than C++ in most areas. This is evidenced by the fact that all serious server software at the high end (think corporate portals, mail systems, Web servers, application servers, data center management software, etc.) is written in Java rather than C/C++. Unfortunately for us SPV owners, we have had to endure crippleware (I got my SPV early on last year). The Smartphone 2002 is unduly slow for what is a fairly adequate SPV processor. In terms of available JVM's, the SPV can run Mitac and Jeode but these are not optimised for Smartphone, hence their somewhat poor performance. However, there are alternatives and I have personally been experimenting with some of them. They look very promising and appear to be as fast as anything Microsoft's Embedded Visual C++ can throw up. I will be posting a beta of the JVM I am currently porting to SPV, by the end of January - so watch this space! Ta, Damian Hack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest meatgrinder Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 woooooooooot, thanks for backing me up (i think :S) java aint as bad as people say and does a lot of stuff really well, i cant w8 for ya JVM, keep us posted man :) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fraser Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 1. Java is the language of choice for most new games being programmed in real games production houses at the moment. Java 3D is easier to handle for their coders than C++/OpenGL and runs on more platforms.Perhaps on mobile phones, but half life 2 will not be running on a JVM. 3. Java is faster than C++ in most areas, except native device calls - i.e. talking to hardware. But the Java Native Interface gets around that to give you the same speed as C++ without the overhead. Can I have some of what you are smoking? Java is not more performant than C++. That's a ridiculus statement to make. Java is popular for the following reasons. None of which are speed. The good things on Java are: Portability (obviously). Security (due to JVM). Automatic garbage collection. 4. The only reason most people think Java is slow is that they are used to running badly coded applets on Microsoft's crippled Java Virtual Machine in Internet Explorer. I repeat - Java is faster than C++ in most areas. Balls. I'm sorry, that's just wrong. Java cannot be faster than C++, unless you use a dreadful C++ compiler. It's impossible for Java to be faster than C++. At best it could match it. JIT can never be faster than compiled machine code. But yeah, MS's JVM is very poor. I stopped using it several years ago. This is evidenced by the fact that all serious server software at the high end (think corporate portals, mail systems, Web servers, application servers, data center management software, etc.) is written in Java rather than C/C++. Again, completely wrong. Most server software is written in C++. That is a simple plain fact. Sure, Java is getting there with things like Tomcat etc. But I repeat; Java is not choosen for speed. Ever. It's other advantages make it very good for server-side software. However, there are alternatives and I have personally been experimenting with some of them. They look very promising and appear to be as fast as anything Microsoft's Embedded Visual C++ can throw up. I will be posting a beta of the JVM I am currently porting to SPV, by the end of January - so watch this space! Very interesting!! I tried some development under the Mitac JVM and gave up because it wasn't very good. As a Java dev, I'll be watching this with interest!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest midnight Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 that just saved me a reply :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Arisme Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 Java is popular for the following reasons. None of which are speed. The good things on Java are: Portability (obviously). Security (due to JVM). Automatic garbage collection. let's not forget the platform, which is great too :) and of course I'm waiting for your JVM release, especially if it's JTWI compliant :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest damianlewis Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 Speed is a relative thing. See http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5602 for the latest benchmarks. Think you will agree there's not much in it (ignore the Trig tests as there are plenty of optimised Java math libraries out there). I am happy to announce that my current porting efforts are proving successful. The JVM managed to run a complex decision-tree engine (that my company produces) over a 2MB dataset (3,000 nodes of UK benefits calculations), on the SPV. Runs the same speed as Jeode VM on an iPAQ 3870 - Result! (implementation of original J2EE benefits calculator Web server app can be seen at http://selby.teamnetsol.com/) Just GUI and telephony to sort out now... Ta, Damianjvmtest1.gifjvmtest3.gifjvmtest2.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest meatgrinder Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 gr8 work damien Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fraser Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 Ditto, very impresive!! A good Java implementation would get me coding again on the phone. Especially if it has a low enough footprint to run in the background. If not, it will still be good for GUI stuff! Will you be releasing this to the public? Any ideas on what license you will go with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest midnight Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 we wanna see games running in java thouigh, not applications :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest damianlewis Posted January 11, 2004 Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 Hi, Thanks for the feedback. The JVM is a port of the EWE JVM. It will be released under the LGPL, i.e. free and open to do with what you wish. The remaining porting issues are GUI (wiring in native 2D graphics routines + key control of GUI), telephony (dialling, SMS) and just making sure the (already working) IR and ActiveSync are 100%. I might also include some native 3D code to help games along a little. If anyone has a preferred set of native C++ libraries for game development, then please give me a shout, as I can create Java classes to wire these into the JVM. Most Java applications will run straight off on the JVM. Some may need adjustment, as the Threading model and some classes have had to be implemented differently. I ran my specific test app on the JVM, as it is processor-intensive and uses just about every class library, except for 2D graphics. In fact, it holds over 500,000 objects in memory, does XML parsing and has an in-built BASIC interpreter running 150,000 lines of BASIC scripting! I should have the first beta of the JVM posted here end Jan/early Feb, dependent on committments at work. Cheers, Damian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fraser Posted January 11, 2004 Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 Good stuff mate, good stuff. If you need any assistance/testing, give me a shout. Don't be asking for C++ help tho...I'm no use there :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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