HTCClassAction - the HTC response

[Guest Metoo]

sorry to call you out on this but I firmly believe you are trying to be politically correct. But your argument doesn't stand.

Of course Paul isn't going to bite the hand(s) that feeds him. Look how the "I won't let it drop" promise over Eten's X500/M700 T-Mobile GPRS issue went quiet, and the vitriolic anti-Eten stance was toned down after the free (as in beer) X800 London press launch.

Fact of life - if Paul upset too many PR people in the industry he wouldn't get so many "exclusive" previews. He'd just end up linking to other peoples stories and voicing sour grapes, like a certain other site about MicroSoft Mobiles (entertaining as that is).

[Guest Paul (MVP)]

Of course Paul isn't going to bite the hand(s) that feeds him. Look how the "I won't let it drop" promise over Eten's X500/M700 T-Mobile GPRS issue went quiet, and the vitriolic anti-Eten stance was toned down after the free (as in beer) X800 London press launch.

Fact of life - if Paul upset too many PR people in the industry he wouldn't get so many "exclusive" previews. He'd just end up linking to other peoples stories and voicing sour grapes, like a certain other site about MicroSoft Mobiles (entertaining as that is).

I'm still pressuring Eten for an X500/M700 fix frequently, doing everything I can, be assured of that! You mention the X800 launch I attended, I used that as another platform to voice my concern that Eten should resolve their outstanding problems on the existing devices as well as launching new ones, and I also sat down with all the devices they had at the launch and used a T-Mo SIM to check they all worked correctly.

P

[Guest ad3]

I'd love to see HTC improve video performance on Qualcomm chipset'd devices, but I love my Kaiser anyway. How about you?

P

My Wizard 9100 is a lot faster than this one...

Video performance is very poor 2d/3d.

Batt drain is a problem.

Keybord you have to press to havy on keys.

Radio-ROM when you're using MSN or so (dataconnection) and you got a call or make a call data-connection is disconnecting.

Slow camara (front and back)

The device feels overal very slow, yep also with cooked ROMs

And yes i pick this one after looking on the HTC site and Qualcomm site, like i do for years before when i pick my mob. There was never a problem with the fully supported options in the used chipset till now. So T-Mobile, HTC and others had to infrom the users about this.

I'm still using it... but for how long...

my 2c

Edited January 28, 2008 by ad3

[Guest jimbouk]

I still remain convinced that some roms and some third party apps people install are contributing to peoples unhappiness.

My Tytn2 is faster than my 3100 - both of which have been flashed with various cooked roms.

Edited January 27, 2008 by jimbouk

[Guest Macker1973]

I think the crux of the matter is not what hardware/software is or isn't included and for what reason, but simply that the Tytn II is performing significantly less well in the display area than the Tytn I. There's no way you can read the advertising and find that acceptable - in fact there's no way that's acceptable whatever the advertising says.

The Tytn II has a 400mhz processor - but yet games and video run better on my old Sony Ericsson M600i with a ~200mhz processor. In fact the Tytn II is comparable to my old SE P910 from 2-3 years ago, with a 150mhz processor and no graphics acceleration of any kind - That's pretty shameful, whichever way you look at it.

Yes, the device is a good phone, and mobile office, and email client, and music player, and a reasonable camera (though that is in part hampered by the same video problem we're discussing here) - but none of those things excuse demonstrably poor performance in another area. These are multifunction devices and are advertised and priced as such - users are entitled to expect all those functions to work adequately. The definition of "adequately" might be entirely subjective, but in the absence of any absolute benchmark I'd take a comparison against the Tytn I as a reasonable measure.

A lot of the web sites including this one reveiwed the Kasier with no mention of the rubbish performance. Compare the smoothness of the iPHone to this and it makes the Kasier look terrible.

I for one will never buy another HTC device, I have placed my Kaiser on ebay and take any reviews on here with a pinch of salt. Its time to get the Windows mobile devices glasses of in the future and give good honest reviews. I wonder how many free HTC devices are given to modoca each year for review.

[Guest Paul (MVP)]

FWIW, I have 2 kaisers, both of which I paid for with no discount of any sort...

I stand by my assessment that as a whole, the Kaiser is an excellent device!

P

[Guest Monolithix]

I'd second that. From some of the replies on this thread you would think the devices are unusable! Web browsing is clunky but usable, the screen takes a few seconds to switch but isn't any worse than my Hermes. The only downside is video playback, not something i use much personally but still a big let down.

Now it's disapointing that HTC made a poor effort with the impressive new hardware, and by all means return your devices if you aren't happy with them, that's the way HTC will be guaranteed to take notice, anything else is a bonus.

HTC have messed up, but they certainly haven't done so to an extent where i'd stop buying their products (maybe more due to the lack of decent competition at the moment...)

[Guest Metoo]

A lot of the web sites including this one reveiwed the Kasier with no mention of the rubbish performance. Compare the smoothness of the iPHone to this and it makes the Kasier look terrible.

I for one will never buy another HTC device, I have placed my Kaiser on ebay and take any reviews on here with a pinch of salt. Its time to get the Windows mobile devices glasses of in the future and give good honest reviews. I wonder how many free HTC devices are given to modoca each year for review.

You make a fair and very valid point here. It's all to easy to get complacent in believing WM is all powerful, and that your ownership of everything HTC makes you somehow superior to those who don't "get it". It can be very refreshing to have a clean break from WM for a while and see what the rest of the world is doing. Not just to try another phone for a day or two and say "that's crap", but locking your WM devices away for a month or more, so you forget your Start Menu preconceptions and really get to grips with how other OS's and UI's are designed to work.

For eaxmple, I did that recently with Sony and Nokia, and it was interesting to note how Symbian did all my daily tasks, efficiently and coherently, without anyone ever suggesting that I needed to get a "registry editor", download a patch, cook a ROM, or create custom shortcuts to make things work. All of them did 3G, Wifi, push email, scheduling, web browsing, podcasts, RSS, messaging, satnav, video and music perfectly adequately despite having CPUs that PocketPC users wouldn't even spit at. So why do PPCs need 400MHz+ CPUs to cope with 3G? Oh, and they answered calls as soon as you pressed the button, didn't miss any voicemail notifications, and had decent voice quality too.

Then when using that phone's facilities has become natural reflex, blow the dust of your Windows phone, and appreciate why the majority of mobile phone users, despite being perfectly at home with a desktop PC, run a mile from its sluggish, over complicated, one-hand-unfriendly interface.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting WM/HTC devices are the Devil's spawn (I'm still using WM now after all). But when you play with them as much as we do, it's easy to lose touch with what the rest of the world's up to.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Metoo

[Guest Paul (MVP)]

I actually do that. I used a Nokia E90 for a week as my main device, couldn't stand it :) Primarily that's on the basis of the Exchange sync experience / mail experience, which the majority of my device use revolves around :D

I don't even try to suggest that WM devices are the best at everything and everyone should have one, but for me (and clearly a whole bunch of other people here), they're the best overall experience (as i've said before).

The day a device comes out that works better for me than the one i'm using, regardless of the OS, then that'll be the one for me!

P

*caveat - another very significant use of my devices is application development. Since i'm a .net developer, that pretty effectively ties me to a WM device atm.

[Guest Chaser81]

I thought it was time that I added my two pence worth on this whole debate!

I have long been a user of windows mobile devices, I have had nearly all of the SPV's from the original through to most recently the HTC STrTrk, and I have had quite a few PPC devices as well. I had an I-Mate Jam, a Kjam, and an HTC Touch and now I have an HTC Kaiser, and I have to say.... I love it, and I honestly don’t know what all the fuss is about.

I know that windows mobile devices sometimes lag a little when opening programs or starting up processes for the first time, its something that I expect from having used so many WinMo devices previously, and the Kaiser isn’t any different, but I have to say that I haven’t noticed it lagging any worse than previous devices.

With regards to video performance, I am not someone who puts TV episodes and films onto my Kaiser, primarily because there isn’t an easy way to do it, and I cant be arsed to spend hours encoding DVDs and the like on my PC, I have better things to be doing with my time. I use VTap for looking at the odd YouTube video when I am in range of a WiFi hotspot, and every time I have done so, its worked fine, and I have had no complaints about the video playback.

In fact my ONLY complaint about the Kaiser is PIE, because I think it’s a rubbish, outdated web browser, which Microsoft should have updated long ago. As a result of which however, I don’t throw a paddy at Microsoft, I simply use Opera Mini instead at the moment, and wait with baited breath for SkyFire to come out in the European territories.

So let me be the one person on here besides Paul to say that if HTC released some magic patch making everything go that much faster, I am hardly likely to complain, but mean-time, I love my Kaiser to bits and cant see what all the shouting and screaming is about.

Obviously this is just my opinion, which is likely to get savaged by zealots, but I don’t care.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Chaser81

[Guest NuShrike]

As for HTC being somehow negligent by not enabling accelerated graphics across the board, ask any owners of recent PPCs that have embedded GoForce 5500 GPUs how many core applications take best advantage of it. From what I've seen in the XDA Flame and Toshiba G900 forums, unless you're playing specifically coded games, that would be a big fat zero then?

Core apps use DDI.dll which benefits from hardware acceleration. Does your MS Windows desktop run the same in SAFE mode?

Since you remain unconvinced, please explain what I'm seeing here:

Are you a coder/engineer with .dll dependencies experience, or just an off-hand observer? I've trolled through the LG KS20 rom dump and it does have ATI dlls and calls, opengl-es dependencies, and other extensions that are strangely missing for the HTC devices.

How do you explain the QTV driver port that's sitting idle in the drivers list? Coreplayer is actually using it now.

Edited January 29, 2008 by NuShrike

[Guest Macker1973]

I'd second that. From some of the replies on this thread you would think the devices are unusable! Web browsing is clunky but usable, the screen takes a few seconds to switch but isn't any worse than my Hermes. The only downside is video playback, not something i use much personally but still a big let down.

No mention of web browsing being clunky, or the screen taking a few seconds to switch or the terrible video playback in the review on this site. I paid premium price for a top of the range device if I wanted a Hermes I could of bought one for 90 quid on expansys not the more expensive $700 clone. I could go on with many more issues such as the sound quality over many bluetooth headsets.

Now it's disapointing that HTC made a poor effort with the impressive new hardware, and by all means return your devices if you aren't happy with them, that's the way HTC will be guaranteed to take notice, anything else is a bonus.

Most people got their devices through a network provider and cannot return to HTC. The fact that HTC have decided to do nothing about this issue is for me the best reason to boycott their devices. HTC have made huge profits last year and I can't help but feel profit is the sole reason for leaving these drivers out. I just can't imagine how they thought putting the speaker on the back of the phone so when you put it on your desk the speaker is muffled was a good idea.

HTC have messed up, but they certainly haven't done so to an extent where i'd stop buying their products (maybe more due to the lack of decent competition at the moment...)

Well I have just received my new iphone this evening purchased with the proceeds of the sale of my kaiser. Sure it doesn't have GPS etc but at least there is very little Latency in the UI and the sound quailty is much better. I have advised my our company to stay with the blackberry and avoid HTC at all costs.

I am beginning to think web sites like this are becoming like car magazines. In order to get their hands on the devices first for free to review they avoid giving indepth honest reviews.

[Guest Paul (MVP)]

I am beginning to think web sites like this are becoming like car magazines. In order to get their hands on the devices first for free to review they avoid giving indepth honest reviews.

Hurrah! Yet another completely unfounded statement! :)

P

[Guest Monolithix]

No mention of web browsing being clunky, or the screen taking a few seconds to switch or the terrible video playback in the review on this site. I paid premium price for a top of the range device if I wanted a Hermes I could of bought one for 90 quid on expansys not the more expensive $700 clone. I could go on with many more issues such as the sound quality over many bluetooth headsets.

Aspects such as those you mention (screen rotate time, web browsing) are easily seen from an in-store demo or through the many and various unboxing/usage videos that quickly spread around the web, video playback excepted. Paul had a pre-release device available months before launch and tested video playback here, reporting it was less than stellar. Looking at the other sites, Coolsmartphone and Trustedreviews.com don't mention trialing of video at all and tracyandmatt.co.uk go so far as saying their test video played back "without so much as a stutter"!

So who exactly is giving the most useful and accurate feedback?

Networks have either a 14 day return policy or, as mentioned, the opportunity to trial in store, which would have quickly shown up any issues. Should you have purchased your device from Expansys, you have a 7 days in the UK and 15 days in the US to cancel your order and return the device. Again, ample time to test the device to your liking.

As for bluetooth headsets, 10 a penny and i'd guess as long as one headset works fine the problems lie in the other headsets themselves (although i don't use a headset myself so can not speak of quality issues here from experience).

...The fact that HTC have decided to do nothing about this issue is for me the best reason to boycott their devices. HTC have made huge profits last year and I can't help but feel profit is the sole reason for leaving these drivers out. I just can't imagine how they thought putting the speaker on the back of the phone so when you put it on your desk the speaker is muffled was a good idea.

Then boycott, but don't make out as if the device is defective. Underperforming yes, but not inoperable. As for profits, unlikely - why would a deal exist where hardware was licenced but software was not? Truth is - we have no idea what did or did not happen internally for HTC not to implement the drivers appropriately. Speaker on the back - sounds absolutely fine here as the GPS antenna cover lifts the device off the desk giving clearance for the speaker, its a matter of opinion though i guess and not really relevent here.

Well I have just received my new iphone this evening purchased with the proceeds of the sale of my kaiser. Sure it doesn't have GPS etc but at least there is very little Latency in the UI and the sound quailty is much better. I have advised my our company to stay with the blackberry and avoid HTC at all costs.

I am beginning to think web sites like this are becoming like car magazines. In order to get their hands on the devices first for free to review they avoid giving indepth honest reviews.

The iPhone, meh. That's my opinion. Email is shoddy, the handset is expensive, has no external memory, replacable battery, MMS, or hardware buttons. imho software keyboards are a poor substitute for a hardware one and that WOULD be a deal breaker for me.

As for honest reviews? 1: See the links above, imho Paul's feedback was the best. 2: He bought his own devices. 3: I count 2004 posts on the Kasier review thread as of today, with Paul replying to the end. If that isnt indepth enough then have fun finding a better resource.

[Guest Metoo]

Should you have purchased your device from Expansys, you have a 7 days in the UK and 15 days in the US to cancel your order and return the device. Again, ample time to test the device to your liking.

OT, but this used to be was a very generous 21 days in the UK. I've just check their T&Cs and see they've quietly reduced this to just 7 days for cancellations and 10 days for non-faulty returns (contradiction there - what's the difference?). Suprisingly, the 10 day replacement/refund window also applies faulty as well as non faulty goods, after which they will insist on a repair. I thought the "standard" for faulty goods in the UK was 28 days?

Seems things are tightening up at eXpansys, which starts to make them less attractive for SIM Free early adopters. I wonder if this is because of the acquisition of MWg (ex O2 Aisa) ?

Edited January 30, 2008 by Metoo

[Guest Monolithix]

The only standard (afaik) in the UK is the statutary 12 months warranty and the Sales of Goods act.

These state that a retailer must sell goods which are fit for purpose (eg not faulty, all advertised features present - this is the fine line HTC have walked...). Only if they are not fit for purpose are you legally allowed to request a return or repair, subject to the retailers practices (initially, at least).

AFAIK there is no legal obligation to accept fit-for-purpose goods back...

[Guest Metoo]

The only standard (afaik) in the UK is the statutary 12 months warranty and the Sales of Goods act.

These state that a retailer must sell goods which are fit for purpose (eg not faulty, all advertised features present - this is the fine line HTC have walked...). Only if they are not fit for purpose are you legally allowed to request a return or repair, subject to the retailers practices (initially, at least).

AFAIK there is no legal obligation to accept fit-for-purpose goods back...

True, but the Sales of Goods Act also says the retailer should replace or refund goods should they develop a fault within a reasonable amount of time, and that it is the customer's perogative to opt to repair or to reject the goods in that period. For the vast majority of retailers in the UK, "reasonable time" is accepted as being 28 days. So eXpansys have suddenly gone from having one of the most generous returns policies to one of the most stringent. It would remain for a court to judge whether 10 days is reasonable, but in light of the industry norms, I would suspect not.

[Guest bydandie]

True, but the Sales of Goods Act also says the retailer should replace or refund goods should they develop a fault within a reasonable amount of time, and that it is the customer's perogative to opt to repair or to reject the goods in that period. For the vast majority of retailers in the UK, "reasonable time" is accepted as being 28 days. So eXpansys have suddenly gone from having one of the most generous returns policies to one of the most stringent. It would remain for a court to judge whether 10 days is reasonable, but in light of the industry norms, I would suspect not.

You have six months under the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002 which came into force in 2003, updates the Sale of Goods Act 1979, and states that if the goods do not conform to the contract of sale at the time of delivery then the defect will be deemed to have been present at the point of sale. The one caution here is that this worked in 2006 with the TyTN screen alignment issues (I asked Voda for an exchange - they refused and I asked for a statement on headed company stationary that they didn't recognise the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002 - I won BTW).

However, this case is now in the realm of did HTC provide a defective device? No they didn't (And spare me from the flames on this one), does the device take calls, can you use the GPS, WiFi and HSDPA etc? If you can show anywhere that HTC stated that they had provided a multimedia device that was faster than any other Samsung or Intel based chipset? The fact is that the OMAP processors aren't half as fast as the Qualcomm ones, WM5 is different to WM6 and WM2k3 is faster than both due to the use of different, slower memory to run from.

An adversial approach will acheive nothing on this guys/gals, but trying to find out from HTC what can be done may prove to be a better bet.

[Guest Paul (MVP)]

Exactly right byandie, unfortunately the haters like to come in and do their thing, and there's not much that can be done about that. Mono, thanks for your excellent post above.

With regards to what next, I guess the things to think about are:

• Is there anyone out there who has the time, inclination and ability to create drivers? I'm guessing it'll be pretty unlikely without the support of HTC / ATI / Qualcomm, unless someone with prior experience in this very specific area comes forward?
  
• Is there any likelihood of a change in position from HTC? I can speak to my contacts and ask - and I will, it seems unlikely at the moment given the noises from them so far?
  
• What about the next Kaiser family model? Is the one good thing to come out of this going to be an awesome video experience on that? Prototypes are already being banded about behind the scenes, but the software build is far from finalised, so hopefully more time will be spent on this aspect (although hopefully not at the expense of other stuff!) For those of us who AREN'T boycotting HTC, this would be a good thing too...
  

The problem seems to have hit something of a dead-end at the moment, and time would definitely be more usefully spent thinking about solutions...

P

[Guest Macker1973]

Aspects such as those you mention (screen rotate time, web browsing) are easily seen from an in-store demo or through the many and various unboxing/usage videos that quickly spread around the web, video playback excepted. Paul had a pre-release device available months before launch and tested video playback here, reporting it was less than stellar. Looking at the other sites, Coolsmartphone and Trustedreviews.com don't mention trialing of video at all and tracyandmatt.co.uk go so far as saying their test video played back "without so much as a stutter"!

So who exactly is giving the most useful and accurate feedback?

I think the point I have been making is all the initial feedback from nearly all websites (including this one) reviewing the Kaiser was at best inaccurate. The device performs like a dog. To claim other websites got it even more wrong than us is a poor excuse for an inaccurate review.

All the aforementioned websites are guilty of the same thing. Its time to get the Windows mobile and HTC tinted glasses of and start giving honest reviews. So what if your pre-production models stop arriving, maybe that would be a good thing.

Networks have either a 14 day return policy or, as mentioned, the opportunity to trial in store, which would have quickly shown up any issues. Should you have purchased your device from Expansys, you have a 7 days in the UK and 15 days in the US to cancel your order and return the device. Again, ample time to test the device to your liking.

Very few stores in the UK anyway had the Kaiser for trial and available through post only. We need good, honest and accurate reviews from trusted sources. I have exchanged my device already though I feel sorry for the sucker who bought it on ebay. He does not have much of a returns policy.

As for bluetooth headsets, 10 a penny and i'd guess as long as one headset works fine the problems lie in the other headsets themselves (although i don't use a headset myself so can not speak of quality issues here from experience).

Then boycott, but don't make out as if the device is defective. Underperforming yes, but not inoperable. As for profits, unlikely - why would a deal exist where hardware was licenced but software was not? Truth is - we have no idea what did or did not happen internally for HTC not to implement the drivers appropriately. Speaker on the back - sounds absolutely fine here as the GPS antenna cover lifts the device off the desk giving clearance for the speaker, its a matter of opinion though i guess and not really relevent here.

The iPhone, meh. That's my opinion. Email is shoddy, the handset is expensive, has no external memory, replacable battery, MMS, or hardware buttons. imho software keyboards are a poor substitute for a hardware one and that WOULD be a deal breaker for me.

Its quite clear that the MS BT stack is poor, it has always been the case. My jabra headset worked perfectly with my old nokia e61. Its not just me there are loads of examples of this on xda-developers and these forums.

Again the underperforming but not inoperable point cannot be allowed to stand on a top of the range device which many people paid a premium price for. This would be intolerable in any other marketplace. Could you imagine buying a 30,000 BMW then finding out its no better than a 12,000 ford Focus. I have never mentioned or used the word defective or inoperable so please refrain from trying to put words into my mouth as such. I have clearly identified that a premium device such as the Kaiser performing no worse than a Hermes is simply not good enough and clearly I am not the only one.

As for the iPhone at least when I press the button to answer a call it actually answers the call. No delays no lag or latency in the UI. The one that annoys me most however is putting in the phone lock code. The iPhone does not have over 5000 dollars committed by consumers to fix major driver issues or petitions with over 7000 customers clearly unhappy with not only their device but the manufacturers response. Apple are now on their third update with improvements clearly showing they have listened to their customer.

As for honest reviews? 1: See the links above, imho Paul's feedback was the best. 2: He bought his own devices. 3: I count 2004 posts on the Kasier review thread as of today, with Paul replying to the end. If that isnt indepth enough then have fun finding a better resource.

Funny how Paul can buy a preproduction unit a few months before release, for review and his apparently in-depth review failed to mention any of the performance issues.

In his review he puts the

Great camera

down as a pro. I am still trying to figure out if that was a joke or not.

[Guest Monolithix]

You need to be careful here. The Sales of Goods Act only covers goods not fit for purpose (section 48), and gives the consumer certain rights to rectify it under the statutary 12 month warranty. "Reasonable time" frames is as far as the Act goes (as it should) and i would interpret it as that time being in relation to sellers of similar goods, not retailers in general.

There is no mention at all of the right to return "should you not like it" (that i can see, happy to be proven wrong!). Only section 34 states you have the right, again, to a reasonable time to inspect the goods, and then reject them if the are unfit (the contract of sale is not complete until you accept it).

It's annoying, the sales of goods act gives consumers an enormous amount of power (bearing in mind it covers everything from you buying your morning newspaper to a car manufacturer buying 100 tonnes of steel...). However these powers can be significantly restricted by the retailer through the contract of sale. Joe Bloggs consumer doesn't necessarily realise this and carries on regardless. The only option you have as an informed customer in this case is to shop elsewhere...

(NB: Note i can only speak as far as UK law goes :) I'd assume other countries have similar rules, but the specifics likely different)

[Guest Monolithix]

I think the point I have been making is all the initial feedback from nearly all websites (including this one) reviewing the Kaiser was at best inaccurate. The device performs like a dog. To claim other websites got it even more wrong than us is a poor excuse for an inaccurate review.

Matter of opinion. My Kasier does not "perform like a dog" at all, it's no slower than my Hermes other than in video playback - i don't use that, but i have always accepted it is poor - and web browsing is far from unusable - i only noticed the difference when compared to other devices.

My point with the other sites is that performance was not poor enough for numerous sites to define it as having poor performance.

All the aforementioned websites are guilty of the same thing. Its time to get the Windows mobile and HTC tinted glasses of and start giving honest reviews. So what if your pre-production models stop arriving, maybe that would be a good thing.

Firstly, i don't see Trustedreviews as having any WinMo bias? Secondly, ask the thousands of posters in the Kaiser review thread if they'd rather have waited?

Very few stores in the UK anyway had the Kaiser for trial and available through post only. We need good, honest and accurate reviews from trusted sources. I have exchanged my device already though I feel sorry for the sucker who bought it on ebay. He does not have much of a returns policy.

Whats your point? As i detailed above, you have the right to reject the product if delivered. As for "very few stores having Kaisers available for trial", how do people purchase them?

Its quite clear that the MS BT stack is poor, it has always been the case. My jabra headset worked perfectly with my old nokia e61. Its not just me there are loads of examples of this on xda-developers and these forums.

As i said, BT audio is not something i use, so can't really speak from experience.

Again the underperforming but not inoperable point cannot be allowed to stand on a top of the range device which many people paid a premium price for. This would be intolerable in any other marketplace. Could you imagine buying a 30,000 BMW then finding out its no better than a 12,000 ford Focus. I have never mentioned or used the word defective or inoperable so please refrain from trying to put words into my mouth as such. I have clearly identified that a premium device such as the Kaiser performing no worse than a Hermes is simply not good enough and clearly I am not the only one.

As above, you'd test the product first, that's your prerogative. Simple as that.

Just to clarify - i'm not trying to convince everyone the device is perfect. I see and appreciate the slow performance. Unfortunately you and the others who now have issue with this made the assumption as a consumer that the product performed in a different manner to its actual capabilities. HTC didn't help this, but at the same time they didn't say otherwise. Bad PR, but not illegal (which is what this thread is about?). Judging by a number of posts on this thread you'd think the devices were unusable. The reason i initially replied to your post was to point out your incorrect and inaccurate points.

As for the iPhone at least when I press the button to answer a call it actually answers the call. No delays no lag or latency in the UI. The one that annoys me most however is putting in the phone lock code. The iPhone does not have over 5000 dollars committed by consumers to fix major driver issues or petitions with over 7000 customers clearly unhappy with not only their device but the manufacturers response. Apple are now on their third update with improvements clearly showing they have listened to their customer.

Different manufacturers have different policies on product updates. HTC have done a bad job (not uncommon, although it's likely carriers are more to blame), Apple have done a good job. That's about as relevent at it gets. The petition is great, and hopefuly HTC will take this on board and either provide a fix or ensure it is sorted in future products. Again, if HTC do provide a fix i'll be as happy as the next bloke, but to me the device is far from poor performing.

Funny how Paul can buy a preproduction unit a few months before release, for review and his apparently in-depth review failed to mention any of the performance issues.

He did. See my initial reply to your post for details. If you're planning on spending hundreds of pounds you don't just scan over the first post.

It's annoying, its a poor effort from HTC, and its bad PR from which i'm sure they *will* lose some sales. But it's not illegal, and the devices, while not reaching their full potential, are far from having dog-like performance.

[Guest WearTheFoxHat]

Blimey this thread has got a little flamey.

My £0.02 would be:

For me the Kaiser is a swiss army knife of a device. It serves a multitude of functions which mean that I do not have to carry multiple devices around. Of course with a device that does so many things, its going to have some downfalls. So ok, it's not an iPod and a bit more fiddly for music, its not as good at gaming as a PSP, it's not as good as web surfing as a EEEpc. But it does all of those in one device.

Admittedly, it would be nice to use hardware device drivers, as we would have assumed it did. Plus I also think for the effort required to fix this issue, HTC have shot themselves in the foot.

But when I come to replace the Kaiser, I shall do exactly what I did this time ... look at the entire market to see which device best does the job I want it to.

[Guest Paul (MVP)]

When I first got the device, back in June last year or whatever it was, the camera compared favourably to other WinMo devices at the time, and impressed me. Sure, it's not a patch on a REAL camera or perhaps some of the devices that are around 6 months later, but at the time, I thought the camera was great :)

All the aforementioned websites are guilty of the same thing. Its time to get the Windows mobile and HTC tinted glasses of and start giving honest reviews. So what if your pre-production models stop arriving, maybe that would be a good thing.

People like macker1973 really need to get this out of their head and get real. If you think HTC and the like give out pre-production models to websites, then you're smoking something and clearly have no idea how these things work. Do you think HTC want their products to be posted all round the web months before their release? Of course not. The best you get out of ANYONE is generally a device for a couple of weeks loan AFTER it's started shipping to customers anyway.

As I stated previously, I'll use any device and any OS that works best for me, regardless of what it is. For me, right now, that's a Kaiser running WinMo.

Not sure how many times I have to say that before the haters stop coming on the thread and repeating the same old misconceptions etc. etc.

P

[Guest Paul (MVP)]

And yes, this thread has got a lot flamey, but that's the nature of the internet / forums isn't it :) You can go and rant in ways that you would never do in 'real life'...

P