Orange Location API

[Guest fraser]

OK, so who's going to be the first developer to write a simple app to query the Orange Location API and launch IE with a URL for a free map website centred on your current location? :lol: I know that several map sites work OK on the browser (e.g. Mapquest) and I'm fairly sure that some accept long/lat co-ords in web queries. It doesn't sound all that difficult to write a tiny app to invoke the API then form a URL to execute as a sys call to the IE binary. That's about it...

From the Orange Developer website:

The first Orange API to be available is the Orange Location API. The Orange Location API service will enable your applications to make a call to the Orange API, to request the location information for a MSISDN. The Orange systems will return the x,y co-ordinates (longitude and latitude) of that device with a degree of error (x,y,r). This will allow you to integrate those details within your application. You can request 1 MSISDN per call.  

The information that is returned is as follows:  

Details of the location (x,y,r)  

The requested MSISDN  

Details of the time at which the location data was recorded  

My one question is though; is the Orange Location API a subscription service for your phone? Or, can any app query it for free? If so, how often? The "per call" isn't exactly clear, does that mean voice or is data also considered a "call". Or, does it refer to an API call. Talk about vague!!

This leads for some interesting applications, for instance you could use it to time journeys/runs, chapperone you around a pre-planned route. OK, so it's nothing new, GPS has been around for years. But I don't think anyone has done it in a non-GPS phone yet!!

[Guest Paul [MVP]]

I've applied to join, and I have an application in mind, assuming that it's not too expensive to use...

P

Posted from my SmartPhone!

[Guest fraser]

I've seen sites where folk leave their GPS on all day, so they can see their movements on a map. Some even produce art out of it

Seing as the government is already doing this to every mobile phone user, we might as well have the capability ourselves!! :wink:

Other cool stuff could be time/location tagged photographs. There is a lot of opertunity here, provided that retrieving a location isn't costly!

[Guest Paul [MVP]]

Indeed, but i'm not optimistic...

P

[Guest James]

a while ago i descovered this BUT, i was not able to get it to work and when i e-mailed them thay said it was not working at present...

Excellent idea though!!!!

http://www.aqualab.co.uk/positioning.php

sat.jpg

[Guest fraser]

There's another company doing this, with the intention of selling the service to Daily Mail reading parents, so they can watch over the kids & keep them away from the paedos lurking around every corner.

One difference is that it's an opt-in service. When you attempt to locate the handset, a text message is sent asking the owner for permission, which needs to be replied to. You can also only locate pre-determined handsets that you nominate when signing up. I don't know if this service has launched yet.

However, if the one you reference doesn't have the permissions safeguards; that's some scary s***!! In their blurb, they mention GPS. Might be a reference to "GPS-like function", or they may require a GPS capable phone.

[Guest James]

yeah, not sure how it works but is does say ANY phone on any UK network.....

quite scary hu!

[Guest Mr Orange]

Access to the Orange Location API is available through the Orange Developers Forum.

[Guest Coucou]

All mobile networks are required by law to reveal the location of the mobile phone to the emergency services. It's not as accurate as GPS but it should be able to at least say which 'cell' you're in and hopefully position within ten or so metres. Whether they choose to let the handset owner have the information is different but I know that on Vodafone Live you can get information on things near to you without having to tell it where you are.

[Guest fraser]

All mobile networks are required by law to reveal the location of the mobile phone to the emergency services.

It's worse than that. All mobiles are being tracked via detailed logs that are kept for three years, IIRC via the RIP act passed a few years ago. These logs are how Lord Hamilton defended a rape charge, several years ago. Every move you have made for the last few years has been recorded. The official story is that no one has "realtime" access to your location, but it wouldn't surprise me if they had that alreeady. It's not as though they are admiting to routinely scanning everyones e-mail for keywords, but an EU parliment report published a couple of years ago says otherwise.

'tis scary, trully big brother material. Nowt we can do about it, so the very least we should be able to get free location based services in return!!

I do wonder though if you have access to these logs via the Data Protection Act. Interesting....might chase that up!

[Guest Coucou]

It's not quite that easy in practice, and the reason I refer to the emergency services is that there was a case where a girl called 999 but couldn't speak, the police didn't find her till she was dead. If the logs already existed don't you think they would have found it easier? Don't fall prey to conspiracy theories, they're all too easy to believe sometimes.

[Guest fraser]

It's not quite that easy in practice, and the reason I refer to the emergency services is that there was a case where a girl called 999 but couldn't speak, the police didn't find her till she was dead. If the logs already existed don't you think they would have found it easier? Don't fall prey to conspiracy theories, they're all too easy to believe sometimes.

LOL. Study some history, this is exactly how freedoms are taken away; anecdotal stories. The Nazi's blamed the Jewish for the burning of the Reichstag, Bush blames "The Terrorist" for everything including the econemy! And we must let them protect us!!

So, you are essentially saying we should forgo all privacy if it could save a life now and again? Oh lord, think of the children!! We should have cameras in every home/school, embedded identification tags. Maybe we should tattoo identification numbers on new-born children? This new technology wasn't even created to be used on emergency calls; it was created to locate someone of interest. The 999 aspects were realised later and used to "sell" it to the public.

The fact is that in the digital realm, the governments are gaining power over their populations that has no real precident in history. You wouldn't be happy if they were scanning through all your postal mail, so why isn't there similar outrage about the accepted fact that the majority of e-mails are scanned for keywords? Innocent until proven guilty, an essential part of our legal process, is completely thrown out the window. Normal protections, such as search warrants, do not exist in this digital world.

"But if you have nothing to hide, what are you afraid of?! goes the standard reply. Well, I'm not happy about the fact that someone has a complete inventory of all my movements in the past three years. Scary s***. For example, my presence at an anti-war march may increace my "terrorist score" in an airport system (such as the USAs CAPPS program), meaning I get the butthole search whenever I fly? That kinda screews up the concepts of political freedom; sure you can be a dissenter, but it'll cost ya next time you need to open a bank account.

Oh, forget "conspiricies", the above is all fact. The saying goes; "Are you really paranoid if they really are out to get you?". I'd agree with that.

[Guest Coucou]

Whoa! The location data is only available for a call which has been/is being made - not every move you make. That is the only time at which two-way transmission is taking place between the handset and the base station. Besides if they were going to do you for being a protester I'd be more worried about the police filming you and sticking your face on a notice board.

The technology isn't all that accurate yet. If you want more information on the Emergency Services aspect, look at this EU Directive.

There is plenty of information there on the technologies involved and the reasons behind the directive.

Aside from that aspect I think the real driving force behind this is not shady big brother style monitoring but businesses trying to find out more about you - one reason I'll never have a TiVo or Sky Plus box is that they log your viewing habits and report back to base.

As far as the reality of the databases, I don't dispute with you, but it's not true that they don't need a warrant to search records and e-mails any more than for post. Something can rouse their suspicions but if they were going to try and prosecute the case would get thrown out for something like not having the proper permissions. The security services have always been digging into communications of people they want to, and in the case of Customs and Excise for example they can apply for a warrant retrospectively. You're as free as you always have been - i.e. not totally. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't mean that information can't be gathered on you.

It worries me more that businesses don't need a warrant to access the information, although the Information Protection Act is meant to be dealing with issues of consent etc.

[Guest carlosp_uk]

Basically an SPV version of www.followus.co.uk

[Guest fraser]

Whoa! The location data is only available for a call which has been/is being made - not every move you make.

Nope. Recent Ian Huntly court case showed the logs; cell handovers and phone register/disconnect events were logged, in addition to calls.

During the US presidents unannounced pit-stop in Iraq, all personel (including many journalists) on Airforce One were required to remove the batteries from their mobiles, as it would not be made public that Bush was in Iraq until they were halfway home. Now, they weren't just happy about switching them off, they demanded removal of the batteries. And you think I'm paranoid? :wink:

That is the only time at which two-way transmission is taking place between the handset and the base station.

Nope, they are regularly in comms with the base station to keep the connection alive. This happens every X minutes., but can also be requested at any time from the station (much like a ping). Here's a bit of mobile trivia for you; in one Scandinavian country, the interval is slightly longer than every where else, which has the effect of increacing the battery life. Guess which country gets used for battery life figures? :wink:

Besides if they were going to do you for being a protester I'd be more worried about the police filming you and sticking your face on a notice board.

Been there, done that. They have spotters in the crowd looking for known trouble makers, and they also film the event to the same effect. With image-recognition technology, they can even get a list of people who attended. Your picture is already on file if you have a passport or driving licence. Get a passport post-October, they will also have biometrics on you. Given the recent demonstrations on how much trust can be placed in government (Iraq WMD/terrorist "link" lies, tuition fees election promise breaking), I'm frankly worried that these people are generating so much power. Historically, this has always have a terrible effect on life; all the big wars & dictatorships started off with a move to grab more power and authority.

If you want more information on the Emergency Services aspect, look at this EU Directive.

There is plenty of information there on the technologies involved and the reasons behind the directive.

Interesting, but still not the reason the technology was created in the first place. Mobiles have been used as a spy tool for years, the Mossad even had a network fake a fault on a users phone, replace his phone with one with a bomb in it. They called it, confirmed it was him, and said goodbye. This was around 10 years ago, IIRC. Not exactly new!!

Aside from that aspect I think the real driving force behind this is not shady big brother style monitoring but businesses trying to find out more about you - one reason I'll never have a TiVo or Sky Plus box is that they log your viewing habits and report back to base.

Well, if that's your thoughts, then Freeview is your only option. The non-PVR offerings from Sky and cable both upload watching data already. Read your contract. Ever wonder why they demand a phone-line hookup for sky? It's required for uploads of this data (as well as PPV and interactice). The digital cable networks are IP based and inherently bi-directional. I figure this ability will be their ultimate victory over cable-hackers. The consumer data is meerly icing on the cake.

As far as the reality of the databases, I don't dispute with you, but it's not true that they don't need a warrant to Search records and e-mails any more than for post.

So, they went in advance and got search warrants for the entire population? These boxes sit on the net pipes monitoring for keywords. That's a search without warrant.

Something can rouse their suspicions but if they were going to try and prosecute the case would get thrown out for something like not having the proper permissions.

Hardly a comforting thought. I genuninely have nothing to hide myself, so I need not fear a successful procecution. I don't think an after-the-fact check & balances system really gives me a nice feeling inside. Besides, they are hardly going to admit the precence of the spy system they have publicly stated "does not exist". If you want to see the real evidence of Echelon, by far the best place to start is the official European Parliment's report on it. Unfortunately, this was released a few days prior to the biggest news story of Sept 2001, so it received very little media coverage dues to the gravity of the attack.

The security services have always been digging into communications of people they want to

Illegally that is. Unless they pay the CIA to do it. Seriously, that is the basis of the UK-USA agreement; neither country can legally spy on their own citizens, so they have each other do it & exchange data.

and in the case of Customs and Excise for example they can apply for a warrant retrospectively. You're as free as you always have been - i.e. not totally. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't mean that information can't be gathered on you.

Nope, freedom is being continually erroded. In the name of freedom apparently. You can either bitch now, of STFU when we have none. Your call. :wink:

It worries me more that businesses don't need a warrant to access the information, although the Information Protection Act is meant to be dealing with issues of consent etc.

Kind-of. The big UK law here is the Data Protection Act, which states that a company can not share your data with another without your permission. Nothing stopping them collect it in the first place.

Credit companies, such as Equifax, are exempt from this however to fight fraud. I wonder how long it will be until new companies are exempted to fight "terror".

[Guest Coucou]

Good points all, but don't forget that there is a genuine need for interception of terrorists. Years of the UK living under the threat of the IRA murderers has taught me that much. Americans are now aware of that threat. I'm not disputing that their government has used that to justify some unrelated activities - but I am saying that the threat is genuine in the first instance.

There has to be some way of balancing the right to freedom/privacy with the right of the public to be protected. You may well be right that it's gone too far but it's shades of grey, not black and white.

If you talk in black and white terms then at one end is anarchy, at the other end is totalitarianism, neither absolute system really works.

[Guest fraser]

Good points all, but don't forget that there is a genuine need for interception of terrorists.

Granted. However, the terrorists are not fools. They know e-mail is insecure, they never use mobiles (unless they are "clean" and off 99% of the time) and the telephone is way out for discussing anything. None of these measures would have done a thing against any recent terrorist incident in the past 10 years. Tell me, when did Bin Laden send his "how we plan to bring down the infidel america" e-mail? :wink:

Ben Frankin said:

"Those who sacrifice liberty for a little security deserve neither".

This is all yet another knee-jerk reaction that does nothing to solve the implicit problem. (which is sooo way off topic now is not the time to discuss)

Years of the UK living under the threat of the IRA murderers has taught me that much. Americans are now aware of that threat.

Do you feel safer now? I hope it works for you, because it doesn't work for me. I'm glad I live in Scotland; we haven't pissed anyone off enough to start terrorist campaigns against us! I like living in a non-imperialist country. Much safer. Setting sites on NZ and Oz though, thanks to Blair. Way to make the psycho portions of the Arab states hate us, Tony. Thanks!! Did you do that one for the children? Because it's your kids that will bear the brunt of the attacks when Iraq's orphans grow up.