IMAP Question

[Guest Pagemakers]

I have set up an IMAP email account on my smartphone.

If I delete a message from my inbox, the next time I perform a send & receive the message re-appears. How do I prevent this from happening?

[Guest sunoke]

When you delete them, do you delete them from your deleted items? I believe that if you leave them there and sync again they disappear from there and do not appear again in your inbox.

[Guest Pagemakers]

Nope tried that. The emails still come back on the next send and recieve.

[Guest Psicotix]

Nope tried that. The emails still come back on the next send and recieve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Instead of deleting (they don't appear to be deleted from the server on send and receive and come back as new messages), I've been moving mail to my trash folder on the mail server from the phone. That looks as if it does the trick - the messages don't come back.

It's a kludge for a very annoying quirk.

[Guest Pagemakers]

That works but how do you then empty inbox.trash? The emails placed there never seem to get deleted!

[Guest Psicotix]

That works but how do you then empty inbox.trash? The emails placed there never seem to get deleted!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Damn, actually checked out the contents of that folder yesterday for the first time and spotted this - sorry! :oops:

My method basically involved hiding mail in a folder until I'd got round to deleting it from the mail server.

Sorry about that Pagemakers, I've been using the mail client with the inbox.trash folder hidden until now, though I had noticed that changes made to my phone inbox had no effect on the messages on the server.

Has *anyone* managed to delete mail from their IMAP account (from their server) using their phone's mail client?

[Guest Pagemakers]

It's a bit of a major bug. How could such a blunder get through all the testing?

[Guest Islanti]

Has *anyone* managed to delete mail from their IMAP account (from their server) using their phone's mail client?
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The problem is that the Windows Mobile Messaging application doesn't use the normal IMAP deletion system. Usually an IMAP client will simply set a flag on the server to indicate the message is marked for deletion. For example, Outlook users periodically hit "ALT+E,S" to purge the messages marked for deletion from the server. Outlook Express has an option to purge when leaving an IMAP folder.

Windows Mobile instead moves the local copy (not the IMAP server copy) to the deleted items folder. When you "purge", you're actually just deleting it from the server.

Interestingly, Entourage (the MS Office Outlook equivalent on the Mac) does this similar to WM, except that it actually moves the message to the deleted items folder on the server. I've heard Outlook's development has been taken over by the Office for Mac team, so perhaps we'll see this "innovation" moved to Outlook as well (I use quotes because you can't move messages between folders in IMAP. When you "move" a message, you're actually downloading the entire message, then uploading it back to the server in the new folder. On slow connections this takes forever).

Anyway, you can control the WM Messaging behavior somewhat. On the PocketPC:Tap Accounts from the Messaging menu bar.
Tap "Accounts..." in the pop-up menu.
Select the "Storage" tab.
Adjust the "Empty deleted items:" field to the value you want.
The 3 values are Immediately - purges the deleted item when you mark it as deleted while connected or upon connection.
On connect/disconnect - purges upon connection. If you delete something while you're still downloading messages this does NOT delete it immediately. There has to be another connection (purge is done at the beginning of the connection routine, I guess?). Until this is done, nothing happens on the server.
Manually - You choose when to purge using Tools -> Empty Deleted Items.
On my Smartphone this seems to be locked to the "On connect/disconnect" option based on my brief testing. If you get in the habit of performing a "Send/Receive" after deleting messages, you'll be fine. I don't see any UI in the Smartphone messaging application to change this. I looked briefly in the PocketPC registry and couldn't figure out where this option is saved. I suspect if someone located this option on the PocketPC it could be changed on the Smartphone as well.

[Guest Pagemakers]

Thanks for your detailed reply.

Just one point however regarding the smartphone, if you delete then do a send & receive immediately the deleted emails do indeed go, but when you do another send & receive they just come bounding back.

I honestly feel IMAP on the smartphone is totally unusable.


The problem is that the Windows Mobile Messaging application doesn't use the normal IMAP deletion system.  Usually an IMAP client will simply set a flag on the server to indicate the message is marked for deletion.  For example, Outlook users periodically hit "ALT+E,S" to purge the messages marked for deletion from the server.  Outlook Express has an option to purge when leaving an IMAP folder. 

Windows Mobile instead moves the local copy (not the IMAP server copy) to the deleted items folder.  When you "purge", you're actually just deleting it from the server.

Interestingly, Entourage (the MS Office Outlook equivalent on the Mac) does this similar to WM, except that it actually moves the message to the deleted items folder on the server.  I've heard Outlook's development has been taken over by the Office for Mac team, so perhaps we'll see this "innovation" moved to Outlook as well (I use quotes because you can't move messages between folders in IMAP.  When you "move" a message, you're actually downloading the entire message, then uploading it back to the server in the new folder.  On slow connections this takes forever).

Anyway, you can control the WM Messaging behavior somewhat.  On the PocketPC:Tap Accounts from the Messaging menu bar.
Tap "Accounts..." in the pop-up menu.
Select the "Storage" tab.
Adjust the "Empty deleted items:" field to the value you want.
The 3 values are Immediately - purges the deleted item when you mark it as deleted while connected or upon connection.
On connect/disconnect - purges upon connection.  If you delete something while you're still downloading messages this does NOT delete it immediately.  There has to be another connection (purge is done at the beginning of the connection routine, I guess?).  Until this is done, nothing happens on the server.
Manually - You choose when to purge using Tools -> Empty Deleted Items.
On my Smartphone this seems to be locked to the "On connect/disconnect" option based on my brief testing.  If you get in the habit of performing a "Send/Receive" after deleting messages, you'll be fine.  I don't see any UI in the Smartphone messaging application to change this.  I looked briefly in the PocketPC registry and couldn't figure out where this option is saved.  I suspect if someone located this option on the PocketPC it could be changed on the Smartphone as well.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Guest Pagemakers]

Thanks for your detailed reply.

Just one point however regarding the smartphone, if you delete then do a send & receive immediately the deleted emails do indeed go, but when you do another send & receive they just come bounding back.

I honestly feel IMAP on the smartphone is totally unusable.


The problem is that the Windows Mobile Messaging application doesn't use the normal IMAP deletion system.  Usually an IMAP client will simply set a flag on the server to indicate the message is marked for deletion.  For example, Outlook users periodically hit "ALT+E,S" to purge the messages marked for deletion from the server.  Outlook Express has an option to purge when leaving an IMAP folder. 

Windows Mobile instead moves the local copy (not the IMAP server copy) to the deleted items folder.  When you "purge", you're actually just deleting it from the server.

Interestingly, Entourage (the MS Office Outlook equivalent on the Mac) does this similar to WM, except that it actually moves the message to the deleted items folder on the server.  I've heard Outlook's development has been taken over by the Office for Mac team, so perhaps we'll see this "innovation" moved to Outlook as well (I use quotes because you can't move messages between folders in IMAP.  When you "move" a message, you're actually downloading the entire message, then uploading it back to the server in the new folder.  On slow connections this takes forever).

Anyway, you can control the WM Messaging behavior somewhat.  On the PocketPC:Tap Accounts from the Messaging menu bar.
Tap "Accounts..." in the pop-up menu.
Select the "Storage" tab.
Adjust the "Empty deleted items:" field to the value you want.
The 3 values are Immediately - purges the deleted item when you mark it as deleted while connected or upon connection.
On connect/disconnect - purges upon connection.  If you delete something while you're still downloading messages this does NOT delete it immediately.  There has to be another connection (purge is done at the beginning of the connection routine, I guess?).  Until this is done, nothing happens on the server.
Manually - You choose when to purge using Tools -> Empty Deleted Items.
On my Smartphone this seems to be locked to the "On connect/disconnect" option based on my brief testing.  If you get in the habit of performing a "Send/Receive" after deleting messages, you'll be fine.  I don't see any UI in the Smartphone messaging application to change this.  I looked briefly in the PocketPC registry and couldn't figure out where this option is saved.  I suspect if someone located this option on the PocketPC it could be changed on the Smartphone as well.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Guest Islanti]

Thanks for your detailed reply.

Just one point however regarding the smartphone,  if you delete then do a send & receive immediately  the deleted emails do indeed go, but when you do another send & receive they just come bounding back.

I honestly feel IMAP on the smartphone is totally unusable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I use IMAP on my Smartphone multiple times a day for two different IMAP accounts and servers. I've never seen this issue. My guess is you've got some corruption in the database that stores the mail information. This could cause the messages to reappear, as the application "knows" they've been deleted so it doesn't show them. Unfortunately, the delete action didn't commit to the database, so on the next load of the information, it shows up again.

Unfortunately, the Smartphone doesn't have the "Clear account" option available on the PocketPC. What I'd try to resolve this (try each one and see if that resolves the issue):

• Delete your IMAP account and re-create it.
  Find a 3rd party utility to delete the database entries.
  Do a backup and restore, hard reset, but do not restore the mail information (possible with Sprite backup restored from PC I think).
  Hard reset and re-install everything.
  

[Guest Pagemakers]

I'm talking about the smartphone here not the Pocket PC.

[Guest markgamber]

I'm talking about the smartphone here not the Pocket PC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, the point is that the IMAP client is pretty thin, most of the work is done on the server and there's not a whole lot that can go wrong outside of that. I've used imap for years and the only problems I've ever run into were server problems. I doubt this is any different. If possible, I'd back up your mailbox, wipe it clean or delete it and then put everything back. Chances are that'll clear it up.

[Guest Pagemakers]

I don't think there is anything wrong with my IMAP folders. When I access them from my PC or laptop everything works just fine. The problem I have is I can not permanently delete "deleted" emails if I use my smartphone to do the deleting. The deleted emails just keep coming back.

I think the problem is with the smartphone software and not me.

Look at Psicotix's posting above. He says the same.

Have you actually tried it on a smartphone?

Edited March 23, 2005 by Pagemakers

[Guest Islanti]

I think the problem is with the smartphone software and not me.

Have you actually tried it on a smartphone?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I said, I use it daily on my i-mate SP3 on two different IMAP servers without this problem. Everything I've said so far has been on the Smartphone, with some comparisons to the Pocket PC (which runs the same OS). I use IMAP on my PocketPC as well.

There's likely something wrong with the local mail database on your smartphone. As I explained, that would explain the behavior you're seeing.

The only other thing it could be is a difference in the software version. Are you running WM2003SE? What phone is this on?

[Guest Pagemakers]

I am using an SDA with 2003SE.

How are you deleting your emails - just by selecting menu/1?

And then they never come back if you do a couple of S/R?

I have just deleted and re-created my IMAP account and it makes no difference.

I also have a C500 and that does exactly the same thing.

I'm not sure what you are doing and I am not.

[Guest Islanti]

I am using an SDA with 2003SE.

How are you deleting your emails - just by selecting menu/1?

And then they never come back if you do a couple of S/R?

I have just deleted and re-created my IMAP account and it makes no difference.

I also have a C500 and that does exactly the same thing. 

I'm not sure what you are doing and I am not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've never seen an email re-appear. I've tried S/R a few times after deleting and it never shows up again.

Too bad deleting the account didn't help. That was certainly the easiest solution. :D

Do you have any information on the OS / IMAP server you're using? Both of mine are Exchange servers. Maybe MS is doing something strange on the server in my case. Wouldn't be the first time they slipped something like that in. :D

Edited March 24, 2005 by Islanti

[Guest Pagemakers]

Hmm. I'm not using an exchange server. It's just a standard linux box that supports POP & IMAP.

IMAP works fine from Outlook 2003 though.

I've never seen an email re-appear.  I've tried S/R a few times after deleting and it never shows up again.

Too bad deleting the account didn't help.  That was certainly the easiest solution.  :D

Do you have any information on the OS / IMAP server you're using?  Both of mine are Exchange servers.  Maybe MS is doing something strange on the server in my case.  Wouldn't be the first time they slipped something like that in.  :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Guest Islanti]

Hmm.  I'm not using an exchange server.  It's just a standard linux box that supports POP & IMAP.

IMAP works fine from Outlook 2003 though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whether Outlook works or not doesn't matter since the way message deletion is done with WM2003 is completely different (as I described earlier). You wanted a likely reason, I'm guessing it has something to do with the way WM2003 and your IMAP server are interacting. I suspect the other forum poster has a similar server. You might want to compare the IMAP server, version number, and configuration with the other poster to see if there's something in common there.

[Guest Psicotix]

Whether Outlook works or not doesn't matter since the way message deletion is done with WM2003 is completely different (as I described earlier).  You wanted a likely reason, I'm guessing it has something to do with the way WM2003 and your IMAP server are interacting.  I suspect the other forum poster has a similar server.  You might want to compare the IMAP server, version number, and configuration with the other poster to see if there's something in common there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm using Fastmail's IMAP server which according to my headers is running Cyrus v2.3-alpha - I don't know how the server is configured other than it requires secure connections :|

I will go about backing up the accounts some time over the weekend and deleting all messages to see if that resolves anything. In my simplistic view of "email stuff", it looks like the absence of a purge command, the client itself or WM2003se could all be faults. Like I said, I can hide the messages on the phone until they get deleted from the server, but I would rather not have to.

[Guest Pagemakers]

I'd be interested to hear your findings...

I've been thinking about Islanti's postings and when you delete an email it moves to the deleted folder and not the IMAP inbox.delete folder so I just dont see how the message gets deleted. The smartphone does not have an IMAP purge option.

I'm using Fastmail's IMAP server which according to my headers is running Cyrus v2.3-alpha - I don't know how the server is configured other than it requires secure connections  :|

I will go about backing up the accounts some time over the weekend and deleting all messages to see if that resolves anything. In my simplistic view of "email stuff", it looks like the absence of a purge command, the client itself or WM2003se could all be faults. Like I said, I can hide the messages on the phone until they get deleted from the server, but I would rather not have to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Edited March 25, 2005 by Pagemakers

[Guest Psicotix]

I'd be interested to hear your findings...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, just redirected a lot of mail, cleared all folders on server, deleted IMAP4 account from phone. I didn't reboot the phone!

Then went and recreated the account and tried to download messages. This failed as the phone complained about not being able to connect to the server - "make sure incoming mail server name is correct" type thing. So, reboot the phone, then send/receive, works fine, downloads mail. I then did 3 things, each followed by a send/receive:

1. Deleted (>1) the mail, then emptied the SP "Deleted Items" folder.

Result: The message turns up in the Inbox on first send/receive.

2. Deleted the message and left it in the SP "Deleted Items" folder.

Result: the mail was deleted from the SP "Deleted Items" folder on send/receive, and the message didn't appear in the SP "Inbox". Being barely awake I thought great! Then did another send/receive, and of course the msg turns up in the Inbox.

3. Made my "Inbox.Trash" (FastMail is a US company!) folder visible in the default "Folders" view. I've always had it hidden. Then moved message to this folder.

Result: RESULT! For the first time, the phone updated the server and moved the message into the Trash folder. This is a step up from what was happening before... or perhaps I wasn't paying close enough attention earlier. :?: Pretty certain that folders on the phone were not being updated as I said previously that mails moved to inbox.* folders and then being deleted from the server using the web client were remaining in the phone's version of the inbox.* folder (40 messages that weren't on the server). So, for me this is an improvement.

I've been thinking about Islanti's postings and when you delete an email it moves to the deleted folder and not the IMAP inbox.delete folder so I just dont see how the message gets deleted.  The smartphone does not have an IMAP purge option.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The inbox.delete/trash folder does now have an activesync (2way green arrow) type image on the folder so you'd expect it to be able to support a purge/empty. However, the client doesn't realise that it can be emptied in the same way the "Deleted Items" folder can (Menu>7 Empty Folder in the Deleted Items view). Going to have to continue using another client to permanently delete messages from the server.

I may give ProfiMail another go while the Inbox is empty and see if it does a little better than before (where it would hang the SPV as soon as it tried to download mail - possibly a problem with writing to the memory card though).

Unfortunately, this mail is entirely in agreement with your assesment.

... and I'm swearing in real life :D

[Guest Pagemakers]

.......and you will also find that your trash folder never gets emptied! You have to manually empty that too.

IMAP on the Smartphone is awful. I still standby that statement.

It's a half-botched job.

[Guest Psicotix]

.......and you will also find that your trash folder never gets emptied!  You have to manually empty that too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once I've emptied the trash folder on the server via other client, the inbox.trash on phone gets updated. So I don't have to on phone.

IMAP on the Smartphone is awful.  I still standby that statement.

It's a half-botched job.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Guest Pagemakers]

You should be able to do the whole thing on the phone. Say like me you're away from home for a week and you have read and actioned 300 emails. When you open Outlook at home they will all download again, until you delete them in that app.

May as well be using POP.