SP5M on O2 Online ?

[Guest Martin@Home]

Are O2 and O2 online different companies ??

All over the net are sites stating "Get an Imate SP5M on O2".

I'm due for an upgrade shortly on 'O2 online' but they've never heard of the handset :cry:

[Guest kam_]

Its O2 - 'oh two". The SP5 isn't officially available on O2. That means they don't offer it on their network.

The companies that do offer it (eg phones2udirect) are actually buying the phone offline. Then selling you a LINE ONLY contract for O2. They then take the comission they get from that LINE ONLY contract and discount the phone for you.

Don't expect O2 to talk you through anything if you call them up with a support issue!

Today the mobile market is saturated in the UK and there are no real new customers. The networks are just stealing customers from each other. With the poor selection of phones available directly from the networks alot of companies are doing this kind of thing to stay ahead of the competition. Another common one is where they sell you two contract only lines, with a rebate. When you do the maths it ends up costing you about £20 for the second 18 month 200 mins/month contract AFTER REBATES. It works out well for you and the company, but you have to shell out the full monthly price till month 6. If the company isn't reputable you could end up in trouble!

[Guest kam_]

oh i just noticed u said upgrade...

it works the same way.. but not all companies will let you do the upgrade.

Esentially they tell O2 they upgraded you, and take you're upgrade credit to discount the phone.

They get less for upgrade than a new contract so you can expect to pay more. If this isn't acceptable to you, then port away to another operator.

If that's not acceptable, port to another operator Paygo, then port right back to the same network with a new contract. Note this may seem worth while to get the phone cheaper, but remember u could have 2 weeks of flakyness if they mess up the port, also you will loose any cred u have with them for having stuck with the network for x years. You will by all rights be a new customer.

[Guest Tech]

yeh thats exactly what I purchased last week - Imate SP5m with an O2 contract from phones2udirect.

O2 do not have them. No general (according to my knowledge) network provider supplies such devices, unless its their own brand (like XDA for O2)

[Guest kam_]

he posted at 16:29... its 22:00 now.. you think he bought it?

heheh

[Guest shadamehr]

Let me add some info to all this to try and help too.

O2 (High Street side - if we can agree to use that term), and O2 Online are VERY different concerns in certain important regards...

That is, in its most important sense, that O2 (High Street based), WILL let other companies do 'connects' with them - that is, add a new customer, give a subsidy to that company for doing this, that in turn then allows that company to offer a free handset by just about ANY manufacturer, that they have bought in in bulk themselves, and thus issue that handset on to the new customer.

O2 Online however, do NOT do this, and all new contracts with O2 Online are THROUGh and WITH O2 Online themsleves, and O2 Online issue the handset from their OWN supplies. They do NOT pay a subsidy to a third party company for getting them a 'new customer' and this allowing that company to provide any handset they wish.

With O2 Online, the customer's relationship is entirely with O2 Online themselves. Their are no subsidies payable by O2 Online to third party companies. O2 Online issue the handset themselves, to the customer, and this means the choice is limited to whatever O2 Online themselves, have listed on thier website.

Or to make this all sound easier by way of a comparison, it is akin to becoming a new customer on Orange, whereby you can do this online at the Orange website, and are dealing direct with Orange themselves, and thus your handset choice is limited to what Orange have themselves, as they are issuing it direct themselves, OR you can go with a third party company such as Onestopphoneshop, who will do a new 'connect' to the Orange network, and in return, Orange will give them a subsidy for doing this. And with this subsidy, this means OSPS can then offer you a handset of almost any make, that they have paid for themselves, becasue the subsidy they get from Orange means they can thus afford to do this.

O2 in its normal sense (that is the real O2 company, also comprising the High Street Shops side of it), can do this - you can go with them direct and choose one of their handsets, OR you can go via a third party company and get a wider range of handsets, via the subsidy regime I have described.

With O2 Online however, they DO NOT do third party connections etc. Everyhting is done direct with O2 Online thrmselves, thus the handsets available, will ocnsist of whatever they have themselves, as per their website.

I hope this explains things a bit better in terms ofthe background to it.

[Guest kam_]

O2 is a bit of a confusing example really. O2 (Cellnet) and Vodafone are the oldest operators. Back when they started they didn't do direct connects and your contract was always with another company. Some of their subscribers are still on these contracts and so their customer base are 'legitimately' using phones not offered by O2. In fact back then your bill didn't come from O2/Cellnet, but another company!

These days the 'shop' you buy your line/phone from is supposed to be registered with T-Mobile/Orange/O2/Vodafone to sell their services and offer you THEIR handsets only. BUT the shop is also allowed to sell you a line only.

None of the networks stop you from using other handsets you aquired elsewhere as long as your using their SIM card (which you have to anyway for technical reasons). So the shop can sell you any handset they want. This IS NOT actually condoned by the networks, but at the same time they can't stop it without loosing customers.

The shop actually sells you a line only deal and the discounted (with the line comission) handset seperately. This is so easy to do these days because handset insurance is also contracted out by the networks, so they'll insure any handset, be it available on that network or not.

The ONLY time it will be an issue (the end user actually realises whats happened) is if you want to setup some service, say Blackberry push email. O2 will tell you they don't support your handset and you're stuck, even if you know its not the handsets problem but their network problem.

Buying online, from any of the operators = buying direct from them. They don't pay comission to a 3rd party, but at the same time only offer you phones they have tested working on their network. There are plus points to this, but the negatives outweigh them in my opinion.

So in fact, you are MUCH better off buying a phone from a store than online. If you go to the right store they will give you part of their comission (as discount on the phone, or cash back).

Regardless of the operator its the same. Walking into the O2 shop is like walking into a sony shop to buy a TV - you're buying from sony. Walking into a shop that sells O2 contracts is like walking into dixons to buy a sony TV. You have 'impartial' advice between networks maybe! and they can give you a cheaper price because they get comission and buy in bluk.

Even tho the networks could give you a lower price they won't undercut these 3rd party retailers because they have a wider reach.

Edited December 12, 2005 by kam_

[Guest Martin@Home]

Let me add some info to all this to try and help too.

O2 (High Street side - if we can agree to use that term), and O2 Online are VERY different concerns in certain important regards...

That is, in its most important sense, that O2 (High Street based), WILL let other companies do 'connects' with them - that is, add a new customer, give a subsidy to that company for doing this, that in turn then allows that company to offer a free handset by just about ANY manufacturer, that they have bought in in bulk themselves, and thus issue that handset on to the new customer.

O2 Online however, do NOT do this, and all new contracts with O2 Online are THROUGh and WITH O2 Online themsleves, and O2 Online issue the handset from their OWN supplies.  They do NOT pay a subsidy to a third party company for getting them a 'new customer' and this allowing that company to provide any handset they wish.

With O2 Online, the customer's relationship is entirely with O2 Online themselves.  Their are no subsidies payable by O2 Online to third party companies.  O2 Online issue the handset themselves, to the customer, and this means the choice is limited to whatever O2 Online themselves, have listed on thier website.

Or to make this all sound easier by way of a comparison, it is akin to becoming a new customer on Orange, whereby you can do this online at the Orange website, and are dealing direct with Orange themselves, and thus your handset choice is limited to what Orange have themselves, as they are issuing it direct themselves, OR you can go with a third party company such as Onestopphoneshop, who will do a new 'connect' to the Orange network, and in return, Orange will give them a subsidy for doing this.  And with this subsidy, this means OSPS can then offer you a handset of almost any make, that they have paid for themselves, becasue the subsidy they get from Orange means they can thus afford to do this.

O2 in its normal sense (that is the real O2 company, also comprising the High Street Shops side of it), can do this - you can go with them direct and choose one of their handsets, OR you can go via a third party company and get a wider range of handsets, via the subsidy regime I have described.

With O2 Online however, they DO NOT do third party connections etc.  Everyhting is done direct with O2 Online thrmselves, thus the handsets available, will ocnsist of whatever they have themselves, as per their website.

I hope this explains things a bit better in terms ofthe background to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

O2 is a bit of a confusing example really.  O2 (Cellnet) and Vodafone are the oldest operators.  Back when they started they didn't do direct connects and your contract was always with another company.  Some of their subscribers are still on these contracts and so their customer base are 'legitimately' using phones not offered by O2.  In fact back then your bill didn't come from O2/Cellnet, but another company!

These days the 'shop' you buy your line/phone from is supposed to be registered with T-Mobile/Orange/O2/Vodafone to sell their services and offer you THEIR handsets only.  BUT the shop is also allowed to sell you a line only.

None of the networks stop you from using other handsets you aquired elsewhere as long as your using their SIM card (which you have to anyway for technical reasons).  So the shop can sell you any handset they want.  This IS NOT actually condoned by the networks, but at the same time they can't stop it without loosing customers.

The shop actually sells you a line only deal and the discounted (with the line comission) handset seperately.  This is so easy to do these days because handset insurance is also contracted out by the networks, so they'll insure any handset, be it available on that network or not.

The ONLY time it will be an issue (the end user actually realises whats happened) is if you want to setup some service, say Blackberry push email.  O2 will tell you they don't support your handset and you're stuck, even if you know its not the handsets problem but their network problem.

Buying online, from any of the operators = buying direct from them.  They don't pay comission to a 3rd party, but at the same time only offer you phones they have tested working on their network.  There are plus points to this, but the negatives outweigh them in my opinion.

So in fact, you are MUCH better off buying a phone from a store than online.  If you go to the right store they will give you part of their comission (as discount on the phone, or cash back).

Regardless of the operator its the same.  Walking into the O2 shop is like walking into a sony shop to buy a TV - you're buying from sony.  Walking into a shop that sells O2 contracts is like walking into dixons to buy a sony TV.  You have 'impartial' advice between networks maybe! and they can give you a cheaper price because they get comission and buy in bluk.

Even tho the networks could give you a lower price they won't undercut these 3rd party retailers because they have a wider reach.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats the info I was looking for... Thankyou very much for your detailed replies guys.

[Guest shadamehr]

Buying online, from any of the operators = buying direct from them.  They don't pay comission to a 3rd party, but at the same time only offer you phones they have tested working on their network.  There are plus points to this, but the negatives outweigh them in my opinion.

So in fact, you are MUCH better off buying a phone from a store than online.  If you go to the right store they will give you part of their comission (as discount on the phone, or cash back).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All well and good Kam. EXCEPT as my entire post above shows clearly, O2 Online is entirely different as a company, and thus tariffs etc, compared to O2 (High Street Stores/old Cellnet side of it).

So to get the excellent tariffs O2 Online offer, you HAVE to go via O2 Online.

Your point is only useful in the case of someone like Orange, where (generally though not always) speaking, the deals are the same online as Shop based - Orange Online = Orange Stores, pretty much.

So for Networks like that, it is best to shop around and get the phone you want elsewhere, on the tariff you prefer.

What I was very clearly trying to demonstrate, and answer the specific question of the OP, was that O2 Online is totally removed from O2 normal.

So for one of the great tariffs O2 Online offer, the OP wouldn't even be able to follow your advice and go elsewhere, as the O2 Online tariffs are NOT replicated elsewhere, or offered third party.

Hope this helps clarify.

Edited December 16, 2005 by shadamehr

[Guest kam_]

ok fair enough, but O2 Online don't have the best offers still. They may be a different entity, but they use the O2 brand and logo's so can't bend the rules like some resellers do.. but anyway now we're talking about different things and you're right i've strayed way way off the topic.

[Guest shadamehr]

400 Xnet ANYTIME minutes a month...

1000 free SMS, or 250 MMS, or a combination of both based on 1 MMS using up 4 free SMS..

0.5MB inclusive Data Allowance...

200 minutes free WAP Dial Up Access (I think you still get this)

Free Voicemail...

Free ITS International Traveller Service for Cheaper Foreign Calls.

Only a 30 Day contract term - not a 12 month term!

£30 a month

(That's the SIM only deal though - but with a phone and elegibility for upgrades each year, you still get 200 Mins, and 500 texts for that price, but its a 12 month contract then)

Feel free to show me a better tariff at that price point.

The problem with O2 Online is not the tariff mate - this is accepted as great. No, it's the Customer Service that is reknowned for being poor, or pricey. But if you know what you are doing, there are clever ways around this - to the point that for me, with my current landline telephone package, Customer Service calls actually work out FREE for me!

But as you say, we are going a bit OT *lol*

Hope the heads up might interest you though.

[Guest kam_]

Walk into your local reseller that isn't a BIG highstreet name. Some one off shop. They'll offer you two sims with rebate after 6 months.

After rebate you'll end up with one line with 200 mins for free, and another line with 400 xnet for 6 months + 200 xnet for 6 months for about £5 to £15 a month depending on the mobile u take from them (usually 6230). If you then sell the mobile too, then you could compare this directly with your example, and you end up with the lines for almost free.

(My brother recently bought a line which after selling the V3 that came with it worked out free. 400 xnet 6months, 200 xnet 6 months on orange, 12 month contract, rebate after 3 months.

When you got the rental free, what does it matter if its a 12 month contract, but anyway thats orange...)

The point is they're not suposed to do that, but they will. They've 'bent the rules'.

£30 a month for 400 xnet is expensive these days, although no contract term is inticing, it doesnt always work out worth while.

If you're able to/or willing to take out a 12 month contract and afford to have the rebate after 3 to 6 months then it outstrips any 30 day contract or short term contract if you go to the right store.

Anyway this is just heresay because no one will advertise these things online, although if you look in the back of your local paper you may see them. If you take the time to check it out you may be surprised to see i'm right, if not then you can just flame me and say i can't prove it so its all lies.

I really don't care either way honestly!

Edited December 16, 2005 by kam_

[Guest shadamehr]

Would NEVER call you a liar kam mate.

All I am prepared to say is you lost me after the first sentence in your explanation of offers above.

You make it sound as hit and miss as black magic mate.

Run it by me a lot more clearer, and I can GUARENTEE you kam mate I will readily try it.

But as it stands now, I don;t even UNDERSTAND what I am meant to try, to get a good deal.

Certainly when you say £30 a month is a lot these days for 400 Anytime XNET minutes, I am sure you have LOADS of us wondering... Cos I for one sure as hell don't know ANYTHING that can comes anywhere close.

Please give us ANY example of what to ask for, to get better for our money mate.

As for rebate based deals.... don't even bother telling us about those mate. phones2udirect... onestophoneshop, mobiles direct to name a few - all do this - all diddle us or make it rocket science to claim your money back - just scan the web, or even the many threads on here about it.

So if your plans rely on cash back rebates after so many months that are an absolute nightmare to claim, then no thanks mate - I've been stung too many times.

Oh, as a Postscript kam - you talk about selling phones to part cover this...

If I wanted an almost free account for a year, I could do this on ANY tariff - including the one I described above.

Go to O2 Online... get a nice new phone of my choice - any sort - how about today's launched Samsung i500 Windows Smartphone for just £49.99

12 months at £30 = 360

£50 for phone

Total £410

Sell phone for £300 easily on eBay

Net cost = £110

Divided by 12 months? = £9.16 a month, for 500 texts, 200 anytime any network minutes, free data, and inclusive MMS etc, plus free voicemail)

So the same can be said about nigh on any deal.

You've lost me with this "TWO sims" thing with yours, and all this talk of rebates etc.

Please mate, I'd love to take you up on this offer, but I have no idea what you even mean...

Step by step please?

Edited December 16, 2005 by shadamehr

[Guest kam_]

If you know what you're doing... pay for the initial fee/deposit on a credit card and buy from a shop you can walk into then you have no worries about being didled on a contract.

True tho that if it isn't laid out for alot of people they get really confused and end up paying an arm and a leg.

so let me break it down for you...

When these retailers sell sim only deals they get alot of comission. They usually use this to subsidise the phone. that we all know.

Now, retailers these days are bending the rules even further.. They will give you TWO sim cards with rebates.

SIM1:

After you got the rebates the first sim card costs you £5 to £15 per month, how much exactly depends on the mobile phone they give you with the deal.. yeah thats right u get a phone too. This sim card will have 400 xnet mins for 6 months, then 200 xnet for the following 6 months.

You pay £30 per month, and get the rebate after month 3, or month 6 depending on the network. After the rebate it works out to £5 to £15 a month for 12 months.

If you sell the phone on ebay (pick a nokia cos they are popular and easy/free to unlock) actually the contract cost u £0. In fact you may even have made money on it.

SIM2:

This will have 200 xnet mins on it. After the rebate this cost you nothing.

---

How can this posibly be i hear you ask?

Well lets take a look from the retailers point of view..

He sells you SIM1 and SIM2 and immediatly collects his comission.

After the rebate he'll have made may be 1/8th of it as profit.

- If you cancel the contract before 6 months and pay any penalty, you'll have paid £30 a month, and the network will 'claw back' a large part of his comision.

But he's still up cos he hasn't paid u your rebate back and won't cos its not hit 6 months.

- If it hits 6 months, his comission is safe and he gives you the rebate and is happy. He needs to see the bills to make sure you're still using the line. He can't go and ask O2 because he's not really suposed to be doing what he is. They get pissy!

- If you fail to claim the rebate he's extra happy. This is where people like phones2udirect get greedy.

Why do they bother to do this you ask? Well there's alot of reasons the main two are these:

- Its hard for them to compete with big name brands like carephone warehouse, O2 online, phones4u etc. The discount has to be big enough for the consumer to favour their single sotre over a big national brand

- He's safe all the way through the process. The onus is on you to claim the rebate back, not him. He doesn't even need to keep track of these things much. Just keep a copy of the original contract so he can verify it if you even bother to come in

- Alot of people get lazy and don't bother to come into the store.

This is how small retailers make their money these days, and i'm telling you these online deals you see are a joke. £30 for 400 xnet minutes is way way over the odds.

Seriously go into a small reseller's shop and ask them what they can do. Just say someone told u they do x,y,z deal - you will be :shock:

EDIT:

i forgot to add.. why do the networks give them enough comision to let them do this?

The UK market is now saturated. There are no more cellphone users left to sell too (pretty much, excecption being prepay for kids.. but they make on calls there not selling the sim/phone). All the networks are just stealing customers from each other. This is exactly why 18 month contracts came about.

If they can keep you on the contract for 6 months they expect to make money back on your calls, AND interconnect charges for incoming xnet calls.

This is why the retailer selling you the second sim for zero is a big no no. The network will loose money on it for sure - unless you give it to your wife or something to use. Most people use the 200 mins each month from home and pretty much dispose of the second sim.

The networks have the claw back cause till month 6 to try to make sure you really stay in contract, and that you don't switch to a lower tarrif. (a secondry reason is box spliters.. but thats a whole other story).

Edited December 16, 2005 by kam_

[Guest kam_]

ok just saw your edit..

well with the phone at £49.99 its a better deal. BUT you won't sell the phone for that price unless you unlock it. Also if its O2 branded then the price will also be lower. Also you have to think that if you can buy it on O2 for £49 so can many other people. The price is then acordingly lower because its branded, locked and on O2.

But if you could unlock it then you're right its a better deal. Having said that, these guys i'm talking about will give you an even better deal sim only. BUT i recomend against it because it means you pay even more upfront (because you don't have the phone in your hand to sell.. you rely completely on their rebate).

I think the bottom line here is, if you want to be the joe blogs and pay what you think you need to pay, or if you want to be smart and pay less. Some people don't want the hassle, but really thinking about it, its not much hassle at all.

[Guest kam_]

Ok so i found an example... Not as good as i was saying, but thats to be expected because they're advertising it online.

http://www.mailorderphones.co.uk/phonedeta...rk=o2&offer=284

Samsung E530

200 Mins xnet

£30 a month

£180 rebate direct to your account

Works out to £15 a month so far..

Second line:

200 mins x-net

FREE LINE RENTAL for 12 months

Siemends A62 handset.

So now sell the phones for £150 (i think we can admit that shouldn't be hard), and you ended up with 2x 200 mins xnet contracts for free.

[Guest kam_]

And here's another one.. on T-Mobile, but basically free with most of the rebat up front.. plus the phone!!

http://www.mailorderphones.co.uk/phonedeta...le&offer=%20285

[Guest shadamehr]

ok just saw your edit..

well with the phone at £49.99 its a better deal.  BUT you won't sell the phone for that price unless you unlock it.  Also if its O2 branded then the price will also be lower.  Also you have to think that if you can buy it on O2 for £49 so can many other people.  The price is then acordingly lower because its branded, locked and on O2.

But if you could unlock it then you're right its a better deal.  Having said that, these guys i'm talking about will give you an even better deal sim only.  BUT i recomend against it because it means you pay even more upfront (because you don't have the phone in your hand to sell.. you rely completely on their rebate).

I think the bottom line here is, if you want to be the joe blogs and pay what you think you need to pay, or if you want to be smart and pay less.  Some people don't want the hassle, but really thinking about it, its not much hassle at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mmmm - clearly we differ in opinion by MILES here mate as to what is "not much hassle" What you just described to me, is an absolute convuluted NIGHTMARE of a huge scale - clearly you however mate, I readily admit, have some lenghty experience or knowledge of this it would seem, that means to you it sounds "not much hassle"

What you just described, to me (as I can't speak for the rest of the audience or readership, but would LOVE to hear thier views), was a nightmare mate. If I needed to do all those things you said, to get the deal you mention, that is probably even then, only available to a tiny percentage of the population by restrictions on finding a dealer, and then even getting them to agree to this, then I have to say thanks but no thanks mate *lol*

As to your other points, your not quite clicking mate... O2 don't lock their phones, so your repeat points about unlocking it, and it being locked reducing its re-sale value, are all wrong - its the very reason I use O2.

Branding too, is not such an issue, as O2 are not too heavy on branding, and in the case of a S.E. this is nearly all gone if you hard reset, or for other phones such as an O2 Nokia 6680, all you need do is change the theme the phone uses to one of the others already on it. For a Samsung i300 there would be no branding other than at most, one single boot screen during part of the boot process.

I am grateful for all you have said kam, and you are ABSOLUTELY not wrong mate - just not of the same opinion as to what constitutes "easy" as the rest of us are, or "available" as the rest of us, would be my feeling.

Your post above can't even manage to mention names of operators, so we know what to ask for, or names of tarriff packages, so we can try and barter for it. If I walked into even one of the very shops you mentioned, and said waht you state above, they would laugh at me. Not becuase they perhaps couldn't offer me great deals. Just because of the huge vaguarity to what I would be asking.

E"r, nope sorry I don't know what network it was. Er no sorry, I don't know what tarrif it was... Er no sorry, I'm not sure why I need TWO sims either, or why you as a dealer need do this to get the best commision or whatever."

Finally kam, in EITHER of the examples you give, they are nowhere near any use to me. As the first would actually only give me 100 XNET a month, so I would pay a fortune if I went over (which I would as 100 a month is LOW user tariff), and the second line is OFF PEAK only, and even then it doesn't say if it is free or not.

The second example you cite seems actually a bit better, BUT...

Whilst you DO get 200 XNET, plus another account with 200 XNET FREE too, thus plenty minutes, the first line is £360 a year, but you only get £180 back if you claim it. Thus still £180 to pay. You could indeed sell the phone, but the Samsung E530 is the lower end of the scale of sellable phones mate, as is the £29.99 PAYG price other free Siemans they give you.

Setting aside the fact, that you fail to consider in any of these posts, the free texts I mentioned and other benefits of the O2 Online tariff. 500 texts at 10p per text would equate to £50 a month to add to these tariffs, which is an additional £600 per year.

Despite the HUGE hassle even getting one of these 'deals' you refer to mate, I am yet to see where they even benefit me if I got one. I did tell you the O2 Online deal gives between 500 and 1000 SMS a month, as part of it, as well as free data allowance, free voicemail, free ITS, and unlike Orange, the free SMS can also be used for MMS

So I am STILL waiting to see you describe a 'deal' for me yet that even comes anywhere near close to this mate. All your deals seem to be voice minutes only.

Until you come up with an overall PACKAGE that includes the things I mentioned, I am yet to even see your point. 500 texts a month would cost another £50 per month.

SOME of the deals you mentioned do come with free sms, but these are 100 per month for 3 months, then down to just 50 thereafter. So I would still have to pay £45 per month for sms on these deals just to get the same I am on O2 Online. And if O2 Online only costs me £30 a month in total, how can you say other deals are better if they would costme £45 for the equivalent sms alone?

Edited December 17, 2005 by shadamehr

[Guest kam_]

Well i see your point that its not for everyone.. BUT

- Like i said over and over this was an example deal i found with 2 mins on google. Like i said over and over they won't advertise the best deal online, and you HAVE to go into these stores to ask them. It was simply to illustrate that what i'm saying isn't hot air and this DOES exist. If you want me to beat you're deal then forget it. I don't have that much time to spend on this argument. I'd have to go into a store and do it.

- These deals are not only O2.. so you're not stuck to only using O2 (some might prefer other networks)

- The networks are clearly shown on that page, so i'm not entirely sure what you're saying about not knowing what network it is. Obviously it's not a standard network tarrif (after rebates) otherwise this whole argument would be mute! Although if you take out the rebates you can clearly see which standard tarrif it is - often with double mins for the first x months.

- The two examples were DIFFERENT on purpose to illustrate various deals are available. You could also have browsed their page for other deals.

- I'm really confused how complicated this is for you. These guys for example will just put the money in your account. You don't even have to visit them and its all online. If you pay by credit card you're covered even if they do try to diddle you.

There are thousands of stores that do this, in fact i'm sure all the one off non franchis stores will do it - they have to to compete. If you go into your local store you don't act like a complete fool like you're sugesting. You simply ask the best deal they can do for you - they will tell u about:

1) sim + phone deal

2) sim + phone deak + rebate

3) 2x sim + phone deal + rebate

4) sim only deal

5) sim only deal + rebate

6) 2x sim only deal + rebate

And you make your decision.

I mean seriously i hate forums these days. You try to give people the benefit of your experiance, they argue and then when you've shown what your point was they move the goal posts. If you're sugesting that some people can't get their head around this then sure i agree - and those people can go buy from carphone warehouse and 'be ripped off' by our standards but 'pay for the convenience' by their standards. Its really quite simple how i explained it, and if you're one of those people who can't understand it then you're a carfone warehouse person.

- About the SMS's, you talking like an orange advert - 10p a message?!. If you KNOW you will make that many SMS's you buy a text pack. SMS's on O2 are VERY VERY cheap if you buy a text pack, especially through these guys at contract time. Then you even get to decide how many you want.

All the addon's like WAP and sms are always cheap at connection time, Remember these are NETWORK services that they pay close to nothing for and will tak onto the contract to sell it to you.

Remember if you walk into a high street store like carphone warehouse you WILL get retail prices and be told sorry 4.99 for 50 text pack. Walk into a store just off the highstreet and you'll get a real 'deal' because these guys will subsidise it with their comission. For them some profit is better than no profit.

I think that there are enough things we can go round and round in circles about, and in the end you will suggest even a rebate is too much 'hassle' for you.

In that case just go to carphone warehouse like Jo Shmo and pay retail prices.

BUT for alot of people this will make sense.

About the phones... O2 branded phones sell for less than non branded - thats a fact. I agree O2 are miles from vodafone who brand their software too, but the price is still less. I guess if there is demand for the model it won't matter on ebay. But otherwise people prefer non branded sim free to O2. I won't bore you with the details why, because most of them you probably won't agree with anyway being a normal single cellphone/line user.

The key point is this. Pick any SIM contract, the comission is for example £100. Add a phone and the subsidy is £60, you get the phone £60 cheaper.

Now add up the monthly charges and subtract the cost of the phone. This is what the contract really cost you.

No matter where you go, the comission doesn't change, ONLY the ammount the retailer decides to use as subsidy. If you buy 2 sims, they got more comission to use as subsidy. Thats just a fact.

So the best deal i find will always beat any deal you find from a highstreet store for that simple reason. Of course you have to be prepared to do the rebate thing.

The price of the phone never changes, and the comission on the line never changes, so all this talk about selling phones is mute because it can be done on both deals, yours and mine. We can subtract the retail price of the phone from both deals cos we can sell it for the same anyway.

Now the deals i showed you are advertised online and have LESS subsidy. They gota pay shipping too yet. Also those deals are what the company thinks most people want. The key point is u can walk into the store and say i need 400 mins a month for 12 months, what can u do for me?

And they'll say right it'll cost x if you take a second sim it'll cost LESS and you don't pay for the second sim at all after rebate.

So in fact (1x400 sim + 1x200 sim) costs LESS than (1x400 sim) AFTER rebate.

This is a fact about how it works.

Edited December 18, 2005 by kam_

[Guest shadamehr]

Right kam...

Firstly, I need to step back, as I AM grateful for all you are trying to do to help... I just must be a bit slow, for it to seem a bit of a chore to me.

Second up, I'm not exactly your normal "single line" user.

I have FOUR O2 Online accounts, two Orange Accounts, an O2 High Street Stores account (via an independant, just the way you mention) two vodafone contract accounts. I think that is it at the minute but there might be more.

Finally, you still haven't shown me a deal that is as good as the one I mentioned kam.

You still keep quoting Voice Minutes only. If all I was after was Voice Minute packages only, I could almost get a deal as good as you highlight, direct with the biggies themselves.

Like I have said "over and over" I described a PACKAGE kam - you are describing the highest voice minute deal, at the cheapest cost per month.

But what you claimed to be able to do, was beat the package I had listed.

Even when you talk about sms bolt ons, and texter bundles etc, to get it to within the amount of texts within the package I mentioned, the monthly cost would be greater.

£4.99 for 50 sms, multiplied by ten, to bring it up to 500 sms, would be £50 mate. Now even if your magic independant dealer discounts got this to a full HALF of this cost (which I seriously doubt, becuase as you know their scope for discounting sms is MUCH MUCH more restricted than voice minutes), then this would come to £25.

Add the £25 to the cost of the line rental, and you have hit an equal or higher monthly price point, to the package cost I identified.

And even then, you have no free MMS, no free inclusive data, probably not free voicemail, dependeing on the net that is doing the deal for you, and no free ITS for cheaper international calls.

So for the final time kam, we really ARE grateful for you trying to help.

But you keep comparing apples with pears and oranges, not apples with apples mate.

Give me even a rough example of how or where I can get:

a) 200 ANYTIME Xnet minutes

:) 500 SMS

(or 125 MMS) or a mix of the two

c) 0.5MB Inclusive Data

d) 200 free WAP dial up minutes (CSD WAP)

e) Free Voicemail

f) Free ITS

For £30 a month, and I will shut up at once.

But thus far ALL your examples are based on Voice Minutes only. You suggest text bundles, but that will still work out as much, and not give you the other things I mentioned.

So I know I am going on and on and on, but you claimed that the deal I identified, as above, was NOT a good deal. I didn't start this debate mate.

You tell me how I can get all that above, for less than £30 a month, and I will gladly eat humble pie by the bucket load.

[Guest kam_]

Ok i think there's a few points you're missing.. Perhaps i didnt make them clear.. I'll try to keep it short cos we keep going over the same points but in different words:

1) I can't show you a comparative deal by posting a url because there are NO comparative deals online. You will need to go into a store to get the best deal, and have to take my word for it that they can beat your deal. To help you beleive me I described how the process worked, and justified how its posible for the retailer (comission, subsidy etc) to beat your deal. I want you to understand the process and how its posible for the retailer to do what seems imposible.

2) I posted the two links because they were the best online deals i found using the process i describe. They are examples only to justify that the retailer does indeed use the process i described (2 sims + rebates etc) to get you a better deal. Compare these with like for like online deals and you'll see they marginally are better - even tho walking into a store would get u one ALOT better. Its an example to show these retailers give MORE comission than the high street stores can, by company policy or because its dictated by the networks.

3) The text pack price of £4.99 for 50 is the RETAIL price you will get if you buy after contract OR attempt to add at highstreet stores. If you add texts at contract time through these other retailers you'll get it MUCH MUCH cheaper and it works out to less than 2p a message (depends on the contract u add it onto, can be as low as <1p).

Highstreet stores make alot on add on's at contract time. Its like PC world they give you a great sale price then convince you to buy u a lexmark POS printer for £99 with it and make the money on that. If you're smart and go to these other retailers they'll give you the cheap price just to seal the deal.

I know first hand how it all works, and i can hear alot of people saying but they pay SMS cross net charges?

Yes they do, but in such a competative market, they assume that any message sent, will be replied to. The cross net price then balances out because of the xnet sms charge to the guy who replied. If you sms in net (to another O2 customer) the cost is 0. There is NO cost to SMS in net, regardless of what they tell you.

It works the same with xnet minutes. They know that on average they will make the money back on xnet calls into their network. This is why ALL contracts are subsidised so much. The market isn't yet tough enough for the big retailers for them to give you back as much sibsidy as these off high street retailers have to.

4) GPRS/WAP is also free for the network. It only costs them if you're using timeslots they could be selling to someone else.. But there is priority for this very reason! With GPRS you can be held off without you knowing, priority for voice is different and wouldn't work because you would have to be disconnected. Right now there is plenty of GPRS capacity for them to give away kb's with contracts. In fact its a clever marketing ploy because they expect most people won't realise the limits and go way over. Adding a small amount of data to your contract is free or VERY cheap on most networks and is a comission perk if the retailer sells you it.

I'm talking about from the retailer side. What they decide to charge the customer is pure profit for them. So carphone warehouse will cos they can, these retailers won't because they need to beat carephone warehouse and seal the deal with you.

Finally, i accept that because i can't point u to a comparative tarriff you have every right not to beleive me. Thats why i'm trying to explain to you how the industry works today in reality. If you understand and beleive that you can see how what i'm saying is possible. This may then convince you to walk down to your local non highstreet store and check it out!

Edited December 18, 2005 by kam_

[Guest shadamehr]

Finally, i accept that because i can't point u to a comparative tarriff you have every right not to beleive me.  Thats why i'm trying to explain to you how the industry works today in reality.  If you understand and beleive that you can see how what i'm saying is possible.  This may then convince you to walk down to your local non highstreet store and check it out!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No mate, that's NOT the problem - not being able to point me to a real example. I understand why you can't do that. It is getting you to accept that the other bits of my package are NOT possible.

I am sorry kam, but there simply isn't - period - a dealer out there that can give me that amount of add on texts, at anything like the price you claim.

They CAN'T kam - and you know it - you KNOW that SMS are subject to much less scope for discounting by retailers than voice minutes.

If you know, or even THINK you MAY know of anywhere, or any way, of getting 500 texts for less than £15, I would love to see it.

You can't give an example, a suggestion, but WORSE - you can't even give a personal account of this. So HOW DO YOU KNOW its available - come on - HOW do you know - if you haven't managed it, you don't know personally of anyone, you don't know an actual example of any dealer offering it, etc etc.

So what are you basing your claim on that it IS there?

Finally, it is a KNOWN and accepted fact Kam, that not one single UK operator other than O2 Online, allows free MMS as part of the SMS inclusive allowance.

So where would a UK independant dealer even start, to offer me this? By offering me free SMS/MMS with Telfonica Moviestar Spain, or what?

I'm sounding rude now I know kam, and I apologise, but kam, I'm sorry, half of what you say, you readily admit, is supposition. 30% of the rest is guessing, and the other 20% can readily be stated, absolutely not possible.

I may be a Doubting Thomas... but if so, I am the Doubting Thomas, to your vague unclear, ephemoral and unsubstantive suggestions.

Come on - I DON'T WANT A WEB LINK KAM, despite you keep saying this. I just, like the rest of us, want even so much as a VAGUE idea what we need to ask for here.

What tariff do you know, that offers 500 free sms, for me to use as a base starting point?

Or if I do this through text bundles, where on earth, even with "unbelievable through the roof dealer discounting", do I get 500 SMS for less than £15?

And then the icing on the cake.... where do I get such a texter bundle, that can also be used for MMS too, bearing in mind NO UK net supports these other than O2 Online?

Then, when you find all that Holy Grail, add to it for me please with Free voicemail, none -chargeable itemised billing, free ITS, and free data allowance, as well as 200 minutes CSD WAP.

Maybe, just maybe, just maybe, there is one mad as a hatter dealer, hiding somewhere in the UK that thinks he can offer me all that...

But even then Kam, how does a quest for the Holy Grail, just to get a compareable package, equate to any person anywhere in the Uk simply taking out an O2 Online package?

Why search the length of the country for the Holy Grail, when you can just pick up the phone, or click on the web, and have it without any rebate tricks, double sims, phone resale, haggling, bartering, or anything else, by just signing up to O2 Online?

What did I miss?

Oh, by the way, one of my mates used to be a senior manager at Tyne Tees Telecom. I have asked him about what you say, and he just laughed at me.

Better yet, my mate runs the "Phone Doktor" independant dealer, and he tries every trick and con in the book.

He just scratched his head.

So kam, ok, maybe they don't know their stuff enough, is your answer...

But isn't that making what I say about this turning into the quest to find the Holy Grail, all the more real?

I very much doubt the equivalent package you describe could EVER exist kam.

But perish the thought, if it does, I sure as hell don't want to find getting a new Xbox 360 at a shop, is easier to achieve, than getting your package somewhere.

Please, just accept that the package I described, O2 Online 200 Texter, is NOT bad value at all, as you claim throughout...

[Guest kam_]

My whole point is that big retailers PRICE FIX!

Either the network forces them to, or the company they are a francise of does.

In either case their prices are fixed, and discounts are fixed. O2 online have a similar problem, and if they were allowed to discount more than say carphone warehouse, O2 know that carphone warehouse would either complain, or push their network less. The networks simply can't afford to play favourites between their retailers.

Its the same as if you wanted to buy a sony TV. Regardless of what your local dixons store wanted to do they could only discount you a fixed amount + any one time special they get permission to do. After that headoffice gives them a slap, and sony threatens to not sell to them.

The local retailers subsidise you out of their profit way more to get the deal, and don't advertise it all over the net so they don't get caught and slapped by the network. Just in principle you should be able to see how and why these retailers can subsidise more, but aparently you still can't.

I can give you examples, but whats the point? I can't substantiate them more than i have, and you'll have to take my word for it. You've already decided i can't posibly be right so that would acheive nothing. There will always be some niggling point that you will stick on and this argument is unwinable. If i convince you on SMS, u will argue about MMS, when i convince you on that you'll go back to SMS.

I'm not entirely sure what you're friend is on, posibly he's not been in the business the last year, but i've seen the figures. I can also tell u the x,y,z reatailers and sellers i know, and some of the other things i know, but whats the point its not about who know more people... its not a contest. Besides i'd just rather not say just to win this unwinable argument. The more i say or attempt to prove my point the more desperate i will look. And quite frankly i really don't care anymore!

So fine.. your deal is the best, go pay that price and buy from O2 online. Its obviously what you're happy to do.

End of Thread.

[Guest fluffcat1]

Its the same as if you wanted to buy a sony TV.  Regardless of what your local dixons store wanted to do they could only discount you a fixed amount + any one time special they get permission to do.  After that headoffice gives them a slap, and sony threatens to not sell to them.

Bad example. DSG discount other products to way below cost and 'bundle' them in with the product to avoid discounting the main item. If you know when your local store's 3 month accounting cycle on extended guarentees is up, for example, you can put an extended warranty on your purchase for about a quid if the manager needs to get his figures....in the case of portable items, worth it for the years theft insurance alone. As long as their bottom line is OK overall and they get their numbers of warranty sales, head office leaves them alone regarding what discounts they give as long as some profit is made on the deal and they can justify their actions i.e he was gong to go to comet etc etc.

End of Thread.

I hate it when people try to stiffle debate. Don't try and say it's over, just *don't reply*....

Oh, and I always thought the independant retailers could only offer more discount on the handsets or cashbacks rather than actually give you a whole better contract? I thought they could only offer the equivalent of the networks directly plus a sweetner, not cheaper SMS etc etc

Richard

[Guest kam_]

Yeah they use tricks to discount you more, but they have to be more and more creative. The phone market is way different because contracts are far more visible, and there's only 4ish networks so only a few deals to sift through.

Well even if you pay '4.99' for the SMS's but the retailer gives you £5 back extra a month how much did the SMS cost you? If you're monthly charge is £5 that leaves you £25 extra to add the services you like.. and the more services you add the more comission the retailer has to play with to discount further.

You're right that they can't create their own tarrif as such, but they could give you a 400 min (with texts) one for the price of, or less than a 200 min one (after rebates), so now you have free texts and the whole thing for cheaper.

Their comission on adding a text pack (at contract time on most providers) is higher so they can easily afford to do that to sweaten the deal. Why? Because you add the pack for 12 months.. regardless of if you use them or not you can't remove them in say month 2 when you realise u overestimated it.

There's a bunch of these 'tricks' - especially when you take the second contract - which is free after rebate. We're gonna end back into a tit for tat debate, so i won't go on about it. But i think you get the idea - its very different in reality from what it looks like from the outside.

Edited December 20, 2005 by kam_