O2 XDA Flame and GoForce: is it worth it? + some REAL GoForce compliance reports!

[Guest Menneisyys]

(Posting this in the Games forum because of the extensive 3D compliance reports.)

The new VGA Windows Mobile Pocket PC’s have resulted in a lot of speculations in the Windows Mobile world, particularly among users already having a previous-generation high-end unit like the HTC Universal, the Dell Axim x51v or (as far as even older models are concerned) the HP iPAQ hx4700 (which has recently received a really usable, WM5 AKU 3.5 upgrade, finally making the unit excel under WM5).

I, an owner of no less than four VGA devices of the WM2003SE and WM5 age (Fujitsu-Siemens Pocket Loox 720 running WM2003SE, HTC Universal running WM6 (thanks to the XDA-Dev hackers), HP iPAQ hx4700 running WM5 AKU 3.5 (again, another thanks to XDA-Dev hackers) and the Dell Axim x51v running WM5 AKU2.2 (but, thanks to several hackers, upgradable to AKU 3.5)), actively following the new (and announced) devices out there.

There are several of them. Here, I don’t provide you with the exact specification of each unit; I highly recommend THIS chart if you’re interested. Alternatively, you can find the “All VGA devices” of PDAdb.net HERE – it’s also a good read.

Note that it’s (version 6) the current version as of 07/24/2007. By the time you read it, there may have been new versions of the chart out. They will surely be linked from the top of the chart.

Also note that it doesn’t list the physical dimensions / weight of the devices. They are as follows:

I would like something that unites the advantages of all the above-mentioned units and, preferably, is tolerably fast (624 MHz XScale if possible) has a huge built-in storage and adds for example GPS, FM radio. The preferred functionality includes USB host, a high-quality screen (NOT the one found in the Dell Axim x51v, which is pretty much useless in Landscape mode, as opposed to the other three VGA models), a decent (!) camera (may be even better than that of the HTC Vox / s710) and 3D accelerator support.

In addition - now that Toshiba have fixed the bugs causing huge problems when trying to resume the device from suspended state - to the Toshiba G900, which seems to be pretty promising (apart from the smaller and, in sunlight, pretty much useless screen and the slower CPU) and the HTC Omni, which we still don’t know almost anything about (except for the info HERE), I’ve been paying special attention to the O2 XDA Flame, mostly because it’s having a GoForce 3D accelerator chip and doesn’t have a thummbboard. (As opposed to MS Smartphones, where they’re a must, I, in general, don’t like the Pocket PC thumbboards much and, generally, find on-screen keyboards as usable and fast as them. There are only few exceptions; for example, the Universal, which does have a decent thumbboard.) I’m not really interested in the HTC Advantage / Athena / x7500, which I find too big, too expensive and not very feature-packed for my needs (no 3D acceleration or really decent front-page buttons / controls (which also plagued the HTC Universal), for example).

This is why I’ve paid special attention to users reporting on the O2 XDA Flame. In this write-up, I collect what the Flame users have reported on the device so far. To cut a long story short, I don’t think I’ll order it (instead, I keep waiting for the HTC Omni, hopefully it’ll be something worth paying on) – read on to find out why. Hope the forthcoming WM6 upgrade (if and when it gets released) fixes these problems. If and only if it is indeed released, I may reconsider my opinions.

Note that the following list is “only” based on users’ reports, NOT my experience. This also means I can’t really comment on the screen quality, particularly in Landscape. Should the device have the same quality Sony screen as the HTC Universal, the PL720 and the hx4700 (and be compatible with all the 3D accelerated titles), I’d get it in no time. This is because I’m pretty much unable to play 3D games on my Dell Axim x51v because of the very bad polarization issues of its, sorry Dell Axim fans, sub-par screen. The Sony screen used in several previous-generation VGA devices, on the other hand, doesn’t have Landscape polarization issues and don’t cause any kind of a headache.

Pros

1. USB host works GREAT! It has been tested with many external hard disks (they need to be externally powered, of course – the Flame, as with all other Windows Mobile PDA’s, can’t power 2.5” HDD’s, let alone 3.5” ones), USB keys, USB keyboards etc. In this respect, it’s pretty much the same as the Pocket Loox 720’s (excellent) USB host support.
   
2. its screen is WAY better than that of the Toshi G900 (another very tempting, current VGA PPC phone) outdoors, particularly in sunlight
   
3. Huge (2G), flash-based (as opposed to the Microdrive in the HTC Advantage) ROM, of which about 1845 Mbytes is free
   
4. 128M RAM, which is a god-send on a WM5+ device (even more than on models with previous operating systems), even if you take into account the 32-process limit of the operating system (which, unfortunately, still remained in WM6)
   
5. No thumbboard (of course, considering this an advantage or a disadvantage also depends on your specific needs), which results in being (while still somewhat “fatter” than both the HTC Advantage and the forthcoming HTC Omni) much leaner than, say, the HTC Universal or the HTC Wizard / TyTN (Hermes).
   

Cons

1. Unknown whether it’ll receive WM6 at all (see THIS, THIS and THIS). Fortunately, in the light of the latest news (see a today’s post HERE), it seems that the WM6 upgrade WILL be released - but, of course, nothing is confirmed as yet.
   
2. Not available from direct vendors in Europe / North-America. Fortunately, ordering from Asia works. (But think of the warranty issues!)
   
3. Only supports UMTS (no HSDPA, as opposed to most other, current VGA Windows Mobile phones) - a BIG letdown!
   
4. The current WM5 version it’s coming with is AKU 3.3.1 only, which means you won’t have access to the goodies (most importantly, the High-resolution mode of IEM getting rid of the pixel doubling) of AKU 3.5. Note that the 4WinMobile article states high-res mode only comes with WM6; that’s not really correct.
   
5. The GoForce chip seems to be compatible with only some current 3D accelerated programs and games (more on this later). In addition, it didn’t score very well in the 3D benchmark tests (with version 0.2 of BenchGLES) either: it scored 1040. Even the considerably older and, according to the manufacturer of GoForce, highly inferior 2700G is better: it scores between 1190 and 1220 on Dell Axim x50v’s and x51v’s (I’ve also tested it on the latter; got 1208 at 624 MHz and 1093 at 208 MHz, showing it’s not because of the slightly lower CPU speed of the Flame that its 3D benchmark results are considerably worse than that of the 2700G)
   
6. Bluetooth disconnects in suspended state, as opposed to ALL other Windows Mobile models. This is MAJOR problem (see for example THIS, THIS)! Some state it’s not common with ALL headsets, though. Nevertheless, you may end up having to buy another expensive piece of (compatible) headset, which is not necessarily what you want.
   
7. Major battery life problems – see for example THIS and THIS; some state it’s pretty much comparable to the, battery life-wise, sub-par VGA Dell Axims.
   
8. Some 2 Gbyte (microSD) memory cards are not recognized / used correctly; SDHC seems to be completely incompatible (see THIS and THIS). The latter is a REAL problem, unless it will be fixed later (via a software upgrade).
   
9. Current standard 5V USB wall chargers are not guaranteed to be able to charge the device (this has nothing to do with the through-USB charging!) That is, you most probably won't be able to use your existing wall chargers.
   
10. Lower-to-acceptable call sound quality (see THIS and THIS)
    
11. There is only analogue TV output – no direct (digital) VGA. This means you won’t want to use this handheld for professional presentations (unlike, say, the Dell Axim x50v/x51v, which has an XGA VGA output – but, on the other hand, no analogue. In this regard, the best solution is the HTC Advantage, which has both types of output via its inexpensive 4-in-1 Cable)
    
12. As far as call recording is concerned, only the other party is recorded, not the local one. See THIS and THIS. (In this regard, this device is just the opposite of most other Windows Mobile Pocket PC’s and Smartphones, which only record the local party, not the remote one.)
    
13. Recording (camera) video straight to the storage card MAY not work (with some memory card types? Not known.)
    

3D acceleration support

The presence of the GoForce chip is one of the major advantages of the new device. If we don’t take the HTC Omni into account (which, as of now, may or may not include this chip), no other, current (the Intel 2700G-enabled Dell Axim x51v is not a current model any more) VGA Windows Mobile device has any kind of 3D accelerator. The ATi chip in the HTC Advantage, as was the case with the HP iPAQ hx4700, is not a 3D accelerator.

First and foremost, I’d like to thank XDA-Developers forum member thierryb, who helped me a LOT by testing all the 3D accelerated games, demos and emulators I’ve sent him.

Please see my blog for a review & more info of most of these titles. There is also a link collection to them at the AximSite Games forum.

Games:

Call of Duty 2: if you remove libgles_cm.dll from the COD2 (demo) program directory, it’ll work. Thierryb stated the game is too dark by default; unfortunately, it has no gamma correction.

Chopper Fight: -

DoomGLES: -

Enigmo: -

GeoRallyEX: WORKING!

Jackpot Casino: -

JellyFish: -; as with CoD2, removing libgles_cm.dll from the home might help (untested!)

Pocket-Jongg: -

Quake2: -

Quake3: -

Solterra: -

Sphere: -

Stuntcar Extreme: -

Tony Hawk: -

Toy Golf: starts, but the game itself is rendered in Portrait (while the menus are in Landscape, as needed). This means only part of the screen is visible – that is, the game is unplayable.

Virtual Pool: - according to XDA-Dev forum member “ianpac”; Thierryb stated it works, but it’s not know whether it was the x50v/x51v version or the software one

Demos:

None of the demos work, except for the Benchmark app.

Emulators:

Neither the 2700G-specific PocketSNES nor PocketGBA work.

(The non-working titles generally display the well-known "The file XXX can not be opened. Either it is not signed by a trusted certificate, or one of ifs components can not be found." error message.)

As can clearly be seen, the GoForce compliance with current 3D accelerated titles is very bad. It’s only Call of Duty 2, GeoRallyEX and Virtual Pool that (more or less) work (and, probably, JellyFish – but that game is really bad) – of the several 3D-accelerated titles.

Also see THIS, THIS and THIS.

Unfortunately, TCPMP / Core Player don’t support GoForce (as opposed to the 2700G, which works just great with these players, making it possible to reduce the CPU speed to 208 MHz to greatly reduce battery usage). If you plan to use these players, GAPI mode is stated to be the most effective.

Also see…

4WinMobile’s user review

The related XDA-Dev thread

Generic list of bugs and O2’s answers HERE

Some other, generic opinions:

5 out of 10:

“As for rating it, (for myself), I would have to say something like a 5, which I know sounds harsh but consider that its still somewhat new and getting its kinks worked out. Hopefully it will get better.

Downers: Little to no GoForce support (so it struggles to play/do things you know it SHOULD be able to do no problem), possibly little/no ROM updates, terrible carkit support, no built in voice-dialing, (where they would have noticed the terrible carkit support), colossal size though if the size doesn't bug you then it might move the number up to 6-7.”

8 out of 10:

“I'll give it an 8, bearing in mind my previous device was terrible.”

HERE:

“The ROM isn't perfect and Bluetooth needs some work, but having 128 MB RAM makes a huge difference with anything else. It reminds me of my old F-S Loox 720 which also had 128 MB RAM and was an incredible device (and VGA, and about the same size). WM 5 and 6 do need the extra RAM if you're a "power user". Specially on Phone Editions, that have less free RAM than pure PocketPC.”

12 out of 10:

“My loox 720 already had 10. Just missed a phone. The Flame as apda only have a 11, and 12 adding the phone.

Yes Flame have issues, they are small, and more or less the same as all WM devices.

Yes I would appreciate wm6, or even a hack to install the Broadcom Bluetooth stack (the only point where the loox is better than the flame).”

HERE:

“The Flame has already been given the thumbs down by many users in Singapore. It's big, ugly, has a dim screen and terrible battery life. I have been reading about if from all the disappointed users for well over a month. This is yet another case of hyped up specs but not enough substance, even if a product has been released on time. Sales haven't been great so it is already being heavily discounted in Asia (apparently).

Also see THIS"

HERE:

“Not sure where you are reading those reviews, but I love mine. It's not dim and battery life is not as great as my Trion, but I still get about 2 days out of it - with my phone vibrating every 5 minutes from 8am-6am M-F with email from work.”

Acknowledgements

Again and again, I’d like to thank XDA-Developers forum member thierryb for his help in testing for GoForce 3D acceleration compliance.

[Guest mikeeey]

id sure like to know how this compares to the kaiser with gaming. i know the kaiser is supposed to be pretty fast.

have you found anywhere where it says how many pixels per second the Flame can Support?

i know the kaisr supports "Up to 4 million triangles per second, and 133 million depth-tested, textured 3D pixels per second fill rate"

and that is much more than the Dell Axim Devices could support :)

[Guest Menneisyys]

id sure like to know how this compares to the kaiser with gaming. i know the kaiser is supposed to be pretty fast.

have you found anywhere where it says how many pixels per second the Flame can Support?

i know the kaisr supports "Up to 4 million triangles per second, and 133 million depth-tested, textured 3D pixels per second fill rate"

and that is much more than the Dell Axim Devices could support :)

Thje Kaiser is QVGA. I don't see much point in QVGA 3D accelerated games when a simple 2700G or GoForce could do the same - in VGA.

[Guest Zeiram]

Thje Kaiser is QVGA. I don't see much point in QVGA 3D accelerated games when a simple 2700G or GoForce could do the same - in VGA.

Alot of people didnt see much point in supporting 2700G either, because they have no device supporting that.

I am sure alot of hobby-coders are interested in the Kaiser, and i know alot of people who plan to get one.

[Guest mikeeey]

Thje Kaiser is QVGA. I don't see much point in QVGA 3D accelerated games when a simple 2700G or GoForce could do the same - in VGA.

yes but there is 1 advantage to QVGA. it doesnt take up as much CPU power so it is faster. usually VGA is 1/4 slower compared to playing a game on a QVGA screen.

[Guest mikeeey]

Alot of people didnt see much point in supporting 2700G either, because they have no device supporting that.

I am sure alot of hobby-coders are interested in the Kaiser, and i know alot of people who plan to get one.

i heard that as long as the game supports GDI the kaiser can take advantage of it. hopefully we will see more GDI support in a lot of emulators, games, and ports.

[Guest mikeeey]

here's links to the specs on both the Qualcomm and GForce Chip.

http://www.cdmatech.com/products/msm7200_c...et_solution.jsp

http://www.nvidia.com/page/pg_20060207466624.html

it's hard to compare being that The qualcomm specs are very simple and dont go into detail, but here is what we can compare:

Kaiser

Playback at 30 fps VGA

133 million depth-tested, textured 3D pixels per second fill rate

4 million triangles per second

Flame

Playback at 30 fps VGA

200 million pixels/second 3D fill rate

2.67 million drawn triangles/second

so we can see that the Kaiser can support more triangles per second and the flame can support more pixels per second.

what do they mean when they say triangles per second? whats the difference between triangles and pixels?

Edited August 2, 2007 by mikeeey

[Guest Menneisyys]

yes but there is 1 advantage to QVGA. it doesnt take up as much CPU power so it is faster. usually VGA is 1/4 slower compared to playing a game on a QVGA screen.

Well, several games are indeed faster on a QVGA device. Still, a LOT of even action games aren't - particularly not on the x50v/x51v.

[Guest nothin]

what do they mean when they say triangles per second? whats the difference between triangles and pixels?

hehehehehh difference is, that triangle may have "SOME" pixels :) :P lol i am amazed by that question.

point of accelerator problem is that NOTHING will be accelerated until it has code to use that acceleration.

so - emulators aren't affected, problably - but emulator with screen filtering could be just FAST and nice looking.

i am curious what about things like doomgles etc...or FPSCE psx emu? are they working?

and what about 2700g support in sunbug's POCKETGBA?

Edited August 2, 2007 by nothin

[Guest mikeeey]

hehehehehh difference is, that triangle may have "SOME" pixels :) :P lol i am amazed by that question.

point of accelerator problem is that NOTHING will be accelerated until it has code to use that acceleration.

so - emulators aren't affected, problably - but emulator with screen filtering could be just FAST and nice looking.

i am curious what about things like doomgles etc...or FPSCE psx emu? are they working?

and what about 2700g support in sunbug's POCKETGBA?

lol ok now when you say "SOME" pixels do you mean "Certian" pixels or do you mean "an amount" of pixels per triangle.

[Guest mikeeey]

Well, several games are indeed faster on a QVGA device. Still, a LOT of even action games aren't - particularly not on the x50v/x51v.

so if it isnt faster that doesnt mean it would be slower though right? then again i thought anything would be, as you could think of it as lowering the resolution on your computer when playing a game and the peformance is better.

[Guest Menneisyys]

i am curious what about things like doomgles etc...or FPSCE psx emu? are they working?

and what about 2700g support in sunbug's POCKETGBA?

On the Flame / Kaiser? Not (yet?). They, on the other hand, work just great in high-res (except for PocketGBA, which is low-res) on the Dell Axim.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Menneisyys

[Guest Menneisyys]

UPDATE (08/04/2007):
Here is an interesting comparison of the Toshi G900 and the Flame.
Here is an interesting discussion of the Q3Dimension/3D Graphics-enabled, Qualcomm MSM7200 chipset-based, (but QVGA; that is, low-resolution) HTC Kaiser. As the HTC Omni, the, currently, only known Pocket PC with a VGA screen with this chipset, will also be based on this chipset (see PDAdb.net’s related page – just press the “Browse all devices...” at the bottom), this may mean it may indeed be worth waiting for the Omni if you would prefer a device with 3D acceleration.
Thierryb has published three interesting articles in the meantime:

In THIS article, he provides a VERY thorough list of all the problems with the Flame
In THIS article, he provides some very thorough battery consumption results.
Finally, he has also posted some (unfortunately, low-res, non-VGA) screenshots of the 3D accelerated games that (more or less) run.