The official i-mate 9502 'Ask Paul' thread

[Guest Menneisyys]

Hard to discuss anything sensibly with someone who moves the goalposts as much as that - I didn't mean keyrings, I meant cotton thread :D

The situation is equally the same: both get caught by the joystick. Also note "for example" in the original sentence "That is, don't expect great controllability - "traditional" D-pads are clearly easier to use and, as they don't portrude, they don't have a tendency to get "caught" by, for example, keyrings." That is, it was just an example of what can be caught by the joystick and doesn't exclude textile threads.

BTW, OK, let's leave it at that. My opinion is still the same:

1. the 9502 for $800+ is too overpriced for what it offers (this is why I recommended more cost-effective alternatives if you really want VGA)

2. there isn't much point in having VGA on a 2.8" screen - you just can't make full use of it (high-res reading, for example)

[Guest Metoo]

BTW, OK, let's leave it at that. My opinion is still the same:

1. the 9502 for $800+ is too overpriced for what it offers (this is why I recommended more cost-effective alternatives if you really want VGA)

Crucially, I don't see why you single out the 9502 when your argument would apply to any other $800 smartphone - especially those that cost more but are still stuck at QVGA. Fortunately for their manufacturers, many people disagree with you.

2. there isn't much point in having VGA on a 2.8" screen - you just can't make full use of it (high-res reading, for example)

Again, many people can see, and enjoy the advantages of VGA on a 2.8" screen which make it worth having. It might not be ideal, but it's still leagues better than QVGA. Some examples I personally use are being able to see in-line appointment titles in Calendar Monthly Views, condensed summaries on the Today screen with PocketBreeze/tAgenda, extra map detail (e.g. road names) with SatNav/Googlemaps etc., and more of web pages in IE, without having to use fudges like scrollbars and Fuzzytype. Even for reading ebooks, text is much sharper and easier on the eye. Just because you can't see the point or value in that, doesn't mean it doesn't exist for those that can.

Edited May 6, 2008 by Metoo

[Guest Menneisyys]

Crucially, I don't see why you single out the 9502 when your argument would apply to any other $800 smartphone - especially those that cost more but are still stuck at QVGA. Fortunately for their manufacturers, many people disagree with you.

My whole argument was "if you don't necessarilly need a converged smartphone like the 9502, you can have a much better experience, much better everything by going non-converged with the latest cooked WM6.1 ROM's for the dirt-cheap hx4700 / the not-very-expensive iPAQ 210 / the latest firmware upgrades for the already-cheap N95 - while not paying more that the price of the converged smartphone". The same I state about the Kaiser (which is also suffering from its share of problems - just like the 9502); that is, I don't have an anti-i-mate bias.

Again, many people can see, and enjoy the advantages of VGA on a 2.8" screen which make it worth having. It might not be ideal, but it's still leagues better than QVGA. Some examples I personally use are being able to see in-line appointment titles in Calendar Monthly Views, condensed summaries on the Today screen with PocketBreeze/tAgenda, extra map detail (e.g. road names) with SatNav/Googlemaps etc., and more of web pages in IE, without having to use fudges like scrollbars and Fuzzytype™. Even for reading ebooks, text is much sharper and easier on the eye. Just because you can't see the point or value in that, doesn't mean it doesn't exist for those that can.

I don't debate the text is crisper. I'm only trying to explain that, on the long run, you'll find a 4" VGA screen much more versatile and usable than a 2.8" one. And it's indefinitely better for your eyes too - no need to squint.

[Guest netnerd]

so you don't lose much if you go for the Kaiser instead of the 9502)

but I DO lose much if I go with Kaiser! I don't want no freaking QVGA junk! just because u can't see in 2.8" VGA, it DOES NOT mean I or other people can't see too!

[Guest Menneisyys]

but I DO lose much if I go with Kaiser! I don't want no freaking QVGA junk! just because u can't see in 2.8" VGA, it DOES NOT mean I or other people can't see too!

I can see 2.8" VGA - I have very good eyesight (no glasses and such). It's just that I find 4" screens much more optimal for particularly long-time VGA usage. Did you ever try to read for example an e-book in a PDF reader on a 2.8" VGA screen? And or a 4" one? Did you try using Opera Mobile or IEM in high-resolution mode without increasing the minimal character size on your 2.8" screen? It's all much-much easier on a 4" screen.

I think I'll stop writing to this thread. I've already listed all my points of why, in certain cases (NOT with all users! I certainly understand a lot of people prefer converged models because the lack of need for carrying two devices), a non-converged approach can be much more cost-effective and, technically and experience-wise, much-much more superior. I don't want to take part in any kind of flamewar.

[Guest Metoo]

I don't debate the text is crisper. I'm only trying to explain that, on the long run, you'll find a 4" VGA screen much more versatile and usable than a 2.8" one. And it's indefinitely better for your eyes too - no need to squint.

OK, put it this way. Having a small screen is a minor comprimise. What is a HUGE inconvenience is not having my PocketPC with me when I need it because I don't have enough pocket space. Every bulky device I've owned (and I include the one-box Universal here) has ended up being left at home in a drawer at some stage because I just couldn't be bothered lugging it along. In my book that makes your solution much LESS usable and versatile than carrying a single, compact, convergent device that goes everywhere with me. If I plan to do some work that needs a bigger screen, I take a laptop or arrange access to a PC. I mainly use my portable devices for short duration information lookups and communication, not watching films. Even if I did, there's no way I'd squint at a 4" PDA for long periods, and the Health and Safety people would have me strung up if I suggested anyone else do so.

I believe in having proper tools for the job, and the 80/20 rule. For 80% of the time (or more), the convergent device will do everything I need with the maximum of convenience. I'm not charging and carrying around boxes that I don't need, nor am I risking damage to or losing same. For the rest of the time, I can do the essentials on the small screen, and if a longer session is required, hunt down (or plan to take) the right equipment. Bumping the smartphone screen spec up to VGA reduces that 20% scenario even more,. Therefore I just can't see the point of lugging extra gear round just for the sake of it when for the majority of tasks it's superfluous.

As for squinting, that's another red herring (it can actually be _good_ to excercise those eye muscles, as log as you flick them back to infinity at frequent intervals). The object of 2.8" VGA is to make reading text and small fonts on the smartphone much clearer and easier on the eye than the same sized fonts on QVGA (especially if the latter is bodged up with Cleartype). To that end it _reduces_ eye strain, so it achieves that purpose well, which is why it gives the 9502 a definite advantage (and real value) over the QVGA competition - especially when it costs considerably less than it's arch rival!

Your whole logic seems to be based around the blindingly obvious fact that bigger screens are easier to read. Well, that's a no-brainer, and I accept that for you, carrying a large screen PDA, and a (somewhat bulky) smartphone works better. But I can't see how that statement makes you take a quantum leap into every smartphone forum to claim that devices like the Kaiser and 9502 are vastly overpriced, pointless, and now even dangerous to your health! :D

OK, 'nuff said. Still looking forward to Paul's 9502 feedback which this thread was supposed to be about!

Edited May 6, 2008 by Metoo

[Guest Metoo]

Do we allow spamming on here?

[Guest awarner (MVP)]

Do we allow spamming on here?

Nope and post removed.

[Guest Smart-Mobile-Gadgets]

Nope and post removed.

not sure what spam you are referring too

the link to smart-mobile-gadgets on the the first page of this thread

:D

[Guest netnerd]

not sure what spam you are referring too

the link to smart-mobile-gadgets on the the first page of this thread

:D

i know everybody is just trying to bring foods to table, but when u do a google on Imate 9502, it' cheaper elsewhere and cheaper overnight delivery too. it' better to have a sale with less profits, then no sales?

[Guest Smart-Mobile-Gadgets]

i know everybody is just trying to bring foods to table, but when u do a google on Imate 9502, it' cheaper elsewhere and cheaper overnight delivery too. it' better to have a sale with less profits, then no sales?

For modaco memebers will beat or match any price plus free ground shipping in USA only..

[Guest awarner (MVP)]

not sure what spam you are referring too

the link to smart-mobile-gadgets on the the first page of this thread

:D

While legitimate links as in the original topic post is ok, just posting to advertise your site/products is not generally allowed.

As for price differences it's always best for people to shop around to ensure they get the best deal.

[Guest Paul (MVP)]

Nice one!

P

[Guest Metoo]

As for price differences it's always best for people to shop around to ensure they get the best deal.

Which won't be Expansys, that's for sure.

The 9502 is now just 5p short of £500. That's a whole £100 above the going rate. Strewth!

Edited May 9, 2008 by Metoo

[Guest Menneisyys]

Your whole logic seems to be based around the blindingly obvious fact that bigger screens are easier to read. Well, that's a no-brainer, and I accept that for you, carrying a large screen PDA, and a (somewhat bulky) smartphone works better. But I can't see how that statement makes you take a quantum leap into every smartphone forum to claim that devices like the Kaiser and 9502 are vastly overpriced, pointless, and now even dangerous to your health! :D

It's not because being a converged phone that I don't particularly like the Kaiser, but because of the major engineering flaws, which make it almost useless for gaming / multimedia. And the other "goodies" HTC has always sucked at: (compared to the cameras in the N95 / N82) sub-par camera, the lack of call recording capabilities etc. Check out my posts at the XDA-Devs Kaiser forum. Should HTC fix these issues (put in a decent camera, enable call recording, enable 3D hardware acceleration for both native and M3G MIDlet games etc.), I'd be a happy camper.

I used to recommend for example the Wizard back in early 2006 because it was far better engineered (no annoying lack of drivers) than the Kaiser. So did I with the HTC Universal, which is still one of the best all-in-one phones. Actually, it was only after getting the iPAQ 210 that I retired it from h e position of my main mobile Web browsing etc. device.

The 9502 is a different beast than the Kaiser. The Kaiser has a MUCH better thought-out, much larger keyboard. I know some people will prefer the 9502 because it's more "solid", but I still think the majority of people would still trade in the unwanted opening (or sliding) the Kaiser for a much better thumbboard. And did I mention: the Kaiser is still a bit (not much) smaller and lighter than the 9502. (60 x 116 x 17.8 (9502) millimetres vs. 59x112x19mm (Kaiser); 200 g vs. 190g)

BTW, as far s the 80/20 rule you mentioned is concerned, I certainly agree. However, you can do an awful lot with "only" a high-end Symbian S60 device. I do most of my (light / quick) Web browsing, mail checking (if I don't have my BlackBerry 8800 around), GPS and, of course, YouTube and other multimedia playback with it. I know it lacks touchscreen and sophisticated third-party apps available for WinMo. It's, however, just fine for the (light, mostly entertainment / Web browsing / mail checking) usage I do most of the time on these devices.

(Incidentally, I was wrong about the new high-end Nokias not having EDR. It seems all online specs are wrong: both the N95 and the N82 have EDR. I've double-checked this with other EDR and non-EDR clients when using the N95 as a HSDPA modem. With EDR clients, the transfer rate was 72 kbyte/s;with clients not supporting EDR it was around 30 kbyte/s. Too bad not even EDR comes close - in practice - to the download speed HSDPA in the N95 is otherwise capable of - that is, about 250 kbyte/s in my tests.)

Finally, please note again that I have nothing against the 9502 myself. I just consider it a bit too expensive (500 UK pounds? That's twice the price of the N95 and the iPAQ 210...) for what it offers. If one would be thrown at me for, say, 100 pounds, I'd certainly accept it (albeit I'm not exactly sure I'd retire my current handsets and switch to the 9502.)

[Guest netnerd]

Finally, please note again that I have nothing against the 9502 myself. I just consider it a bit too expensive (500 UK pounds? That's twice the price of the N95 and the iPAQ 210...) for what it offers. If one would be thrown at me for, say, 100 pounds, I'd certainly accept it (albeit I'm not exactly sure I'd retire my current handsets and switch to the 9502.)

where are u going to accept the facts the MOST PEOPLE dont want/like to carry 2 device, pda and cellphone??

if some1 want to buy a car, are u going to recommend them to get a boat instead? haha

[Guest Metoo]

Finally, please note again that I have nothing against the 9502 myself. I just consider it a bit too expensive (500 UK pounds? That's twice the price of the N95 and the iPAQ 210...) for what it offers.

The only place the 9502 is 500 pounds is at our old friends Expansys (I'm still amazed no one else is commenting on their recent price escalations. Is their sponsorship that stifling?). The main UK importer's retail price is 399.95.

Edited May 12, 2008 by Metoo

[Guest Paul (MVP)]

eXpansys is rarely the cheapest, that's for sure. They do sometimes have some corking deals, and stock that others don't have.

As with everything, shopping around is always sensible!

The 9502 is pretty expensive, wherever sourced...

P

[Guest Metoo]

eXpansys is rarely the cheapest, that's for sure. They do sometimes have some corking deals, and stock that others don't have.

As with everything, shopping around is always sensible!

The 9502 is pretty expensive, wherever sourced...

P

Oh come on Paul, quit spinning the "9502 is expensive" myth. In everywhere but eXpensys land, the 9502 is at least £50 cheaper than than the same-spec TytN II, and it packs in a VGA display!

I didn't mind paying a 10% or so premium when they were always the first to get new devices. Now they rarely are, and their escalating prices are ripping people off who have them as a preferred supplier or who just don't know better. I mean, £100 more for the 9502? £80 more for an Eee PC 701? Even the TytN II has shot up to £50 over the odds. Of course, it does make the also-ran MWg's look better value.

Given that you are quick to pounce on other poor value deals (in your opinion) such as those from Orange and BT I find this blind faith to one company from a once independant voice laughable. Something to bear in mind the next time I read an "exclusive" review...

Edited May 20, 2008 by Metoo

[Guest Paul (MVP)]

Oh come on Paul, quit spinning the "9502 is expensive" myth. In everywhere but eXpensys land, the 9502 is at least £50 cheaper than than the same-spec TytN II, and it packs in a VGA display!

Sure, it's pretty cheap relative to the TyTN II, the TyTN II is REALLY expensive :D I guess I just count £400 as quite expensive still.

I didn't mind paying a 10% or so premium when they were always the first to get new devices. Now they rarely are, and their escalating prices are ripping people off who have them as a preferred supplier or who just don't know better. I mean, £100 more for the 9502? £80 more for an Eee PC 701? Even the TytN II has shot up to £50 over the odds. Of course, it does make the also-ran MWg's look better value.

Agreed, I wouldn't pay those prices for the devices, i'd always shop around for the best deal.

Given that you are quick to pounce on other poor value deals (in your opinion) such as those from Orange and BT I find this blind faith to one company from a once independant voice laughable. Something to bear in mind the next time I read an "exclusive" review...

Blind faith? How so? I don't recall saying eXpansys are the cheapest or best place to get a device. I fail to see 'blind faith' to one company when the main link on all MoDaCo pages is in fact devicewire!

P

[Guest Paul (MVP)]

BTW, you realise the link in the first post isn't to eXpansys right?

P

[Guest Metoo]

BTW, you realise the link in the first post isn't to eXpansys right?

P

Of course, it wouldn't be eXpensys, as they can't seem to get any stock, even though the rest of the UK is plentiful. Same applies to the Eee PC too.

OK blind faith may be a bit strong, but it is rare to see any negativity here towards their lines, or to any other products this site promotes (e.g. the overpriced and dog slow Diamond) or that MWg want to dump.

And if the likes of Devicewire are affiliates, why no headlines pointing out that they (and Clove) are £100 cheaper (and actually have stock, instead of continually fabricated "estimated" delivery dates) than "other well known outlets"?

And no, for what it does, and for something that is £50 cheaper than it's direct competitor, and in your words "blows the Kaiser way", I don't think the 9502 is expensive.

Which brings us back to the original purpose of this thread - after your initial impressions, have you any more feedback on the 9502? Were there any particular annoyances?

Must admit one of the main attractions for me as well as VGA, is the "hewn from a block" solid body, rather than the full body wobble-split of HTC sliders, and for that I'm prepared to accept a smaller, Sidekick style keyboard.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Metoo

[Guest Paul (MVP)]

Of course, it wouldn't be eXpensys, as they can't seem to get any stock, even though the rest of the UK is plentiful. Same applies to the Eee PC too.

OK then.

OK blind faith may be a bit strong, but it is rare to see any negativity here towards their lines, or to any other products this site promotes (e.g. the overpriced and dog slow Diamond) or that MWg want to dump.

I didn't find the Diamond dog slow at all (and after using a Diamond again quite a bit in the last week, I still had no issue with performance), and we're yet to see real post-launch pricing. Devicewire (see what I did there?) have it up at £463 at time of writing, but these things do generally come down once they've hit the streets. That's comparable with the TyTN II, which has a keyboard but lacks VGA for example.

And if the likes of Devicewire are affiliates, why no headlines pointing out that they (and Clove) are £100 cheaper (and actually have stock, instead of continually fabricated "estimated" delivery dates) than "other well known outlets"?

Is that really a 'headline' item? Specific product prices etc. generally get mentioned if they are insanely bargainous, otherwise it's just a regular market thing, if you're gonna buy, look it up on Froogle, check out the most popular device sites, get a feel for the market before buying. At least that's what I do...

And no, for what it does, and for something that is £50 cheaper than it's direct competitor, and in your words "blows the Kaiser way", I don't think the 9502 is expensive.

Specs wise, perhaps, but perhaps it's telling that i'm back using my Kaiser. I guess I don't find the 9502 the sum of it's parts?

Which brings us back to the original purpose of this thread - after your initial impressions, have you any more feedback on the 9502? Were there any particular annoyances?

Hey, now there's an idea! :D

For me, the 9502 is just that bit too big and heavy, the keyboard just that bit too much of a compromise and most importantly, the dpad is AWFUL. Pressing up on it is virtually impossible, and it turns out I use the dpad a LOT! I'm back to a Kaiser atm, but i'm gonna give the 9502 another go now i'm back from the US (I always seem to fall back to my favourite device when i'm away and really need the 100% confidence the Kaiser gives me!)

Must admit one of the main attractions for me as well as VGA, is the "hewn from a block" solid body, rather than the full body wobble-split of HTC sliders, and for that I'm prepared to accept a smaller, Sidekick style keyboard.

I don't really take issue with my Kaiser's build quality. There's no denying the 9502 is much more substantial of course. You're right, VGA is nice.

Hope to get a review out this week if I have time, if you have any specific questions, i'm happy to answer them.

P

[Guest decalingo]

Hi Paul! I've just decided to buy my first WM device. I've been using S60 for the past 5 years. Personally I never tried to really compare these two different categories with each other. Symbian was presumably imitating/simulating WM in the early days but with the introduction of the news devices like N96 (S60 3rd Edition, Feature Pack 2 based on Symbian OS v9.3) and even earlier versions, we should now believe in S60 stand-alone nature.

I've read tons of reviews where some people were trying to compare S60 with WM but honestly most of the time they seem to be quite biased. There are some facts like impressive media features on the recent S60 devices which are missing on WM gadgets whereas WM devices are performing much better in terms of syncing implementation. Anyway, I personally would rather consider these two as "two different platforms" and that's why I decided to buy a WM phone - as the second gadget to carry around. :o

These are my major concerns:

1-Low amount of RAM

2-VGA output resolution

3-Any design problem with the sliding mechanism?

4-Speaker quality (while listening to a music)

5-I don't expect to play games on this device so often but just in case...I'm just wondering how the integrated GPU could perform on 9502.

6-Does it make sense to also consider Toshiba Portégé G910 versus this model?

In essence, it doesn't make sense to say let's wait longer to get a better device because we couldn't make up our mind this way but suppose I somehow manage to wait a little bit longer (till July) to buy my new gadget. Do you think HTC Diamond and Xperia X1 can be considered as far superior alternatives? :D

Personally I find HTC Touch Diamond very nice indeed but I've always had in mind that WM mobile should look more simple and professional...HTC Touch Diamond does look too trendy and fashionable to be a business phone, IMO.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I know that HTC has been producing their Touch series for quite a while but having watched a video on how Touch Diamond UI works, I simply got the impression that they are somehow copying iPhone (scroll by touch and drag, zoom, Cover Flow and the whole UI concept). In case of X1, since this is the first SE's WM phone, maybe there might be some issues with it that the company would need to resolve in their next WM handsets.

Of course, these are just my opinions and I really like to hear your comments on it.

Thank you :(

[Guest netnerd]

i will get the Sony X1 to replace my imate 9502.

Sony X1 got 3" 800x480 compare to 9502 at 2.8" 640x480.

seeing more on screen is always better! less scrolling!