Guest modacian Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 This is a memory discussion post on the STOCK roms or ... others! :P , please reply only if you are an expert and know about these capital letter acronyms and deep into hardware and programming stuff!!! :( Ok, I know all of you are gurus and experts in windows mobile and development and programming and ... and... and... :) But for a noob like me, I get confused... When I bought the Omnia, I knew it has 128MB or RAM, ok, but we only have "Total" Program memory as 97.27, and I knew it has 256MB ROM, but we only see "Total" 87.80MB Storage... I know I know, lite roms, internal programs, stock applications, etc etc... but this should be the "In use" figure not the "Total" figure... right? umm... :) Well, the only thing I can think of is the memory in our WM is treated as the harddesk in a PC, partitioned with the remaining partition hidden, but why? and what is in that partition if exists? 256-87.80=168.20MB, what is exactly in this area? and why it is not utilized properly? ok applications, hard-reset data... ;) 128-97.27=30.37MB, ok I may understand the ROM and Storage part, but this, I cannot figure it out!!! :D Ok, I bet no one would be able to answer this question, what about the "My Storage" 16/8GB!!! aha... gotcha... right? isn't this a ROM/Storage area as well? why isn't the WM utilizing it instead of squeezing itself in the little poor ROM area! much like a HD in a PC? see... no one answered... I knew no one will answer this!!! B) eih? Anyway, just wanted to trigger the thought of some geniouses and WM old timers... maybe this is not an Omnia specific question, but I do have an Omnia, and I love it!!! and I love Samsung's applications and find them the best, especially the Main Menu, Phone Book, Call Log, Camera, Clock and most of all the widgets... although most of them have bugs, but still... :) Thanks in advance to all ;)
Guest zemrwhite2 Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 Ok, I bet no one would be able to answer this question, what about the "My Storage" 16/8GB!!! aha... gotcha... right? isn't this a ROM/Storage area as well? why isn't the WM utilizing it instead of squeezing itself in the little poor ROM area! much like a HD in a PC? see... no one answered... I knew no one will answer this!!! :) eih? Will try : I may be wrong, First, the 16/8GB area is not ROM (ROM == Read Only Memory), then WM does not use it because of access speed which is much much lower than internal memory.
Guest aridoasis Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) well, this is how i understand it... think of the omnia as a computer (well, it IS a sort of micro computer, duh) RAM is 128 mb ... internal memory used by programs that are running ROM is 256 mb ... relate it to drive C:\. It's where you install the programs so that they can run smoothly. this is where your os is installed, and well as the pre installed applications, fyi. 16gb storage ... relate is to an external hard drive, or a thumb drive perhaps. good for storage, but not good for running programs. i think that's the simplest way to explain it. Edited January 19, 2009 by aridoasis
Guest daskalos Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) Will try to explain the RAM Part Omnia has 128MB RAM and Program Memory (Main Memory) resides in the 128MB RAM So if you got a total Program Memory of 97.27MB you've got an extra 30.37MB RAM left 97.27MB is the limit to install Programs in the Main Memory So where's the 30.37MB RAM? Well SOME part of the 30.37MB RAM will be used for Running Programs that are Installed in The Main Memory [wrong](Note: corrected,programs are installed in the Storage Memory ) and for those Installed in My Storage and Storage Card. And SOME part of the 30.37MB RAM is CONSTANTLY in use by HIDDEN programs that are running in THE BACKGROUND, even if Omnia is on Standby...More or Less these hidden programs consumes a total of MORE or LESS than 12MB...These hidden apps are essential, they monitor incoming calls and messages, manage power levels, make the device "ready" for the actions by the user etc. So let's say you have reach the limit of 97.27MB...add up 12MB of hidden running apps So the total of consumed RAM is MORE or LESS 109.27MB... But why MORE or LESS and not an exact value? Because when a program or app is using the RAM or in other words RUNNING, the amount of memory used is constantly changing, imagine a program as dancer dancing (Running program) through a set of moves(what a program is doing) in a stage (the stage is the RAM).... Now lets take 109.27MB from the total 128Mb total RAM of Omnia = 18.73MB This means you still have a FREE 18.73MB worth of RAM good enough to run some programs despite of gorging up the 97.27MB limit + 12MB of hidden running apps... The 97.27Mb is the limit for applications that are required to be installed in the Main Memory for quick access. Logically,this is to make sure that you can no longer Install apps there when you reach the limit, so that running programs may not suffer.. (The Limit 97MB might be the calculated RIGHT amount by Omnia Developers) The Hidden Total Available Ram is not viewable cause the amount is constantly changing...a program may monitor it, but it will just only waste some amount of memory, and having free available RAM possible is the priority. This is why it is advised to install apps and games in the My Storage or Memory Card, so you may have extra RAM to use in case a Program requires a lot of MEMORY Now why Omnia has only 128MB of RAM Well in my opinion: 1. Omnia Screen resolution is only Wide-QVGA,which uses less RAM than VGA or WVGA. 2. More RAM capacity consumes more power. If Omnia RAM would be doubled, the device battery might not survive a day in its native battery. 3. More RAM capacity means a More expensive device (hardwarewise). Samsung offers devices which are right for the budget. 4. The 624Mhz processor speed compensates the 128 RAM. Edited January 20, 2009 by daskalos
Guest tingchung_chin Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 Will try too explain the RAM Omnia has 128MB RAM and Program Memory resides in the 128MB RAM So if you got a total Program Memory of 97.27MB you've got an extra 30.37MB RAM left 97.27MB is the limit to install Programs in the Main Memory So where's the 30.37MB RAM? Well SOME part of the 30.37MB RAM is used for Running Programs that are Installed in The Main Memory and for those Installed in My Storage and Storage Card. And SOME part of the 30.37MB RAM is CONSTANTLY in use by HIDDEN programs that are running in THE BACKGROUND, even if Omnia is on Standby...More or Less these hidden programs consumes a total of MORE or LESS than 12MB...These hidden apps are essential, they monitor incoming calls and messages, manage power levels, make the device "ready" for the actions by the user etc. So let's say you have reach the limit of 97.27MB...add up 12MB of hidden running apps So the total of consumed RAM is MORE or LESS 109.27MB... But why MORE or LESS and not an exact value? Because when a program or app is using the RAM or in other words RUNNING, the amount of memory used is constantly changing, imagine a program as dancer dancing (Running program) through a set of moves in a stage (the stage is the RAM).... Now lets take 109.27MB from the total 128Mb total RAM of Omnia = 18.73MB This means you still have a FREE 18.73MB worth of RAM good enough to run some programs despite of gorging up the 97.27MB limit + 12MB of hidden running apps... This is why it is advised to install apps and games in the My Storage or Memory Card, so you may have extra RAM to use in case a Program requires a lot of MEMORY Now why Omnia has only 128MB of RAM Well in my opinion: 1. Omnia Screen resolution is only Wide-QVGA,which uses less RAM than VGA or QVGA. 2. More RAM capacity consumes more power. If Omnia RAM would be doubled, the device battery might not survive a day in its native battery. 3. More RAM capacity means a More expensive device (hardwarewise). Samsung offers devices which are right for the budget. 4. The 624Mhz processor speed compensates the 128 RAM. quite agree with your point there, but ROM is the 1 i can't accept, samsung's Offical ROM only 90mb++, custom RAM can go up to 160mb++, i think the max can go will be until 230-250mb, hopefully 1 day we have the ROM with 250mb, cos for some software, it's default install in Program Files, if i move to Storage Card/Program Files, the application software will "dead" :) :D :)
Guest sztupy Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 4. The 624Mhz processor speed compensates the 128 RAM. The faster processor and smaller screen means a lot more processing power. And because a WinMo application can eat up at most 16megs of RAM, this memory limit will be engouh for most of the work you'll have to do on the omnia. And for the missing 32Megs in the total: there runs the kernel core of the windows mobile and some other main applications (like the phone) As for the storage memory: The total memory means all programs that are not included in the ROM as modules. And considering hard resets: the phone has to store some information in the ROM that will enable it to get back to the "initial" state, and that takes up ROM memory too.
Guest lastnikita Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 In addition to what Sztupy wrote: Will try to explain the RAM Part I'm terribly sorry but this is ALL WRONG. You're confused between RAM and ROM, the way you describe is how it worked under WM2003, since WM5 you've got separated RAM and ROM chips. 1. Omnia Screen resolution is only Wide-QVGA,which uses less RAM than VGA or QVGA. Of course not, wqvga will use more ram than qvga (but less than vga) 2. More RAM capacity consumes more power. If Omnia RAM would be doubled, the device battery might not survive a day in its native battery. no, RAM is not SO consuming... it is, but not that much. 3. More RAM capacity means a More expensive device (hardwarewise). Samsung offers devices which are right for the budget. Come on, omnia is not cheap :) The point only is, 128MB ram is enough for any application today, and it will be ok for at least 2 years. 4. The 624Mhz processor speed compensates the 128 RAM. You can't just say that.... If you miss RAM it's a nogo, if you miss computing power it will just be slower, cpu can't compensate if you don't have enough RAM to run your application. And if you have enough, to have more will be of NO USE. the 16/8GB area is not ROM (ROM == Read Only Memory) both are almost the same kind, the big one is just slower as you say after. we call them ROM but it's misleading, they are not ROM anymore since ages, but some flash memory (kind of eeprom). historically ROM = firmware so we just kept talking about "ROMs"
Guest daskalos Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 @ Lastnikita "You're confused between RAM and ROM, the way you describe is how it worked under WM2003, since WM5 you've got separated RAM and ROM chips." The RAM Management of WM2003 (storage balancing program memory) is gone with WM5 and WM6... But as far I know WM5 and WM6 Main Program Memory of current PDA is still a part of the RAM... To prove this Go to Settings/Memory Be sure that there is no visible running apps in the background Now Check the Program and Note how many MB is in Use and How many MB is Free Now Run any application for example the Touch Player While the Touch Player is Running, check again Settings/Memory and look at how many MB is in Use and How many MB is free again at the PROGRAM.... You will see that the In Use value Increases and the Free Decreases...different when you have no running apps yet... You might also notice depending on which app you are running that values are constantly changing..,blinking numbers When you close the running app e.g. the touch player, the values will return to the original This proves the Program Memory is Still On RAM cause while running programs the indicated values changes.... The Storage Memory part is On ROM "Of course not, wqvga will use more ram than qvga (but less than vga)" I dont think so..... At xda-developers: 1) VGA screens consume more power on average than QVGA -- it's likely the reason why we don't see many VGA screen phones today -- and the ones that do exist aren't quad band. 2) The processor has to push 4x the number of pixels in VGA which means it needs a fairly beefy processor and a takes corresponding hit on battery life. To render seamless graphics on a VGA or WVGA will obviously needs more ram and processing thats why HTC HD and Experia has a 200+ RAM "no, RAM is not SO consuming (power)... it is, but not that much" More RAM (hardware) will need more power cause it's an additional hardware...And even if you have a single 256 RAM, running it will require more power and the battery must have some sort of special capacity to cope with it. Like those who mod HTC Universal and added an additional 64mb ram to the board...At 500mhz and 128MB ram, they reported a short battery life... Common...With the specs of Omnia, 624mhz,128 RAM,5mp camera,video out etc. its cost is just right...
Guest lastnikita Posted January 19, 2009 Report Posted January 19, 2009 But as far I know WM5 and WM6 Main Program Memory of current PDA is still a part of the RAM... What you call program memory is RAM. You don't install apps in "program memory", but they run in program memory. You install apps on storage memory. You can also see this in settings/memory. That's why you get the behavior you described when you run apps :D "Of course not, wqvga will use more ram than qvga (but less than vga)" I dont think so..... At xda-developers: [...] WVGA will obviously needs more ram and processing WVGA is not the same as WQVGA dude :) wqvga is a wider qvga. since it's wider, it can display more things, thus it needs more power. More RAM (hardware) will need more power cause it's an additional hardware... Of course I agree, was just saying that it would not decrease the autonomy to 1 day, as you say. It would be just a little more consuming, not much, believe me :) Did the universal run @500mhz from stock ? Because o/c will drain the battery much faster, cpu is consuming a lot, not ram. Common...With the specs of Omnia, 624mhz,128 RAM,5mp camera,video out etc. its cost is just right... I guess I can't argue here ;) Well still, ram is not so expansive neither, the extra cost would not be much, but as I already stated it's useless right now.
Guest daskalos Posted January 20, 2009 Report Posted January 20, 2009 (edited) WVGA is not the same as WQVGA dude :) wqvga is a wider qvga. since it's wider, it can display more things, thus it needs more power. Oh that's where I got i wrong....I mean VGA and WVGA needs more power...I mistyped WVGA as QVGA And yep you're right Programs Installed on My Device compiles in the Storage Memory Thanks for the correction Edited January 20, 2009 by daskalos
Guest modacian Posted January 20, 2009 Report Posted January 20, 2009 Sweet :) the scientists have spoken, however please guys don't confuse my post with any of the complaining ones, because I am NOT! this is totally for the information of the public, and I wish someone with greater knowledge and understanding can have a say in this. Anyway this is what I've understood with my noob understanding in plain english: Settings -> System -> Memory: 1. Storage = ROM ; 87.80MB != 256MB | What is in the mysterious "remaining" hidden 168.2MB? Hard Reset Data? Who can divide it? and how come I have only 30MB In use memory after a fresh hard reset? I thought this is the repository space "168.2MB" where data is pulled to use after a good hard reset!! is there a tool to unlock it and have a look at its contents file by file with sizes? "maybe rom cookers can have a say?" 2. Program = RAM ; 97.27MB != 128MB | Settings -> System -> Task Manager: Sum of all app/proc memory= ~40MB, however "In use" ~50MB. aridoasis said: "think of the omnia as a computer (well, it IS a sort of micro computer, duh)" :( My Computer has RAM and ROM right? ok, in the system preferences it is showing 1GB memory, and it is actually 1GB memory installed. Why does WM hide the remaining memory, embedded windows have different behavior than PC windows? ;) RAM is volatile, it uses "power" to keep its ones and zeros (data) from vanishing! right? so more ram space = more constant-power to stay alive! ummm :D Now coming back to our beloved "My Storage" Space, it is made of NAND technology (Slower to read, faster to write), but the WM ROM space is made of NOR technology (Faster to read, slower to write) :) ,there is no genuine difference between them apart from that! (I don't know, price? :) ) Now this is the real question: is there a way to store the hard reset data (if I can say that) in a part of the My Storage instead of taking more space from the internal ROM (well both are internal, but you know what I mean!! :P ) Let's see... however still confused about the ROM and RAM spaces wasted, no solid answer "backed up with evidence :D"
Guest sztupy Posted January 20, 2009 Report Posted January 20, 2009 (edited) (what I write is afaik only) 1. Storage = ROM ; 87.80MB != 256MB | What is in the mysterious "remaining" hidden 168.2MB? Hard Reset Data? Who can divide it? and how come I have only 30MB In use memory after a fresh hard reset? I thought this is the repository space "168.2MB" where data is pulled to use after a good hard reset!! is there a tool to unlock it and have a look at its contents file by file with sizes? "maybe rom cookers can have a say?" The "hard reset data", which contains the eboot, the XIP and the imgfs is stored compressed, so it will take less space than uncompressed, and some of the files that are stored as modules are here too, because they can't be overwritten, so they don't need to be stored twice. Everything else between the "total" space and the "used" space are files, that are present twice in the ROM. And of course you have some free space too. My Computer has RAM and ROM right? ok, in the system preferences it is showing 1GB memory, and it is actually 1GB memory installed. Why does WM hide the remaining memory, embedded windows have different behavior than PC windows? :) And if you have an integrated graphics card for example, it'll steal from your total RAM. In an embedded environment, some devices need "separated" RAM too. And the operating system _core_ is in this part too, so that's why you get 30mb less "total" RAM. Now this is the real question: is there a way to store the hard reset data (if I can say that) in a part of the My Storage instead of taking more space from the internal ROM (well both are internal, but you know what I mean!! :D ) Using a carefully cooked the ROM will help you, because that way you end up with less duplicated data, and more free space. Edited January 20, 2009 by sztupy
Guest UndeadDevil Posted January 20, 2009 Report Posted January 20, 2009 (edited) Caches *cough*(The reason Total RAM is less than 128Mb) Edited January 20, 2009 by UndeadDevil
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