De-Certification To Be Reviewed....

[Guest vampyre69]

I am a person whom always has their ear to the wall in cases of hacking, cracking etc, not to blow my own trumpet I am usually near the mark.

Although my fortay is Mac based so this is kind of not my area but here goes...

It has been brought to my attention that it is not intended that the next major/critical update from Orange will resolve the issue of end-users being able to 'de-certify' their handsets.

Although it has been said that 'a developer program is currently in place where by developers wishing to develop software for the SmartPhone platform may obtain emulation software to perform so tests or in certain cases microsoft/orange may consider issuing such a client with a 'correctly' decertified handset.

A future update that will fix many bugs while also improving the handset performance and usability will enhance the end user experience but may also resolve such a 'loophole'.

Although customers with handsets that are already de-certified may not be able to apply such an update correctly as this is not supported by either Microsoft and/or Orange.

It has also been mentioned that it is uncertain at this time wether microsoft may release such an upate directly to the end user or if Orange will do so vie their update system.

Either way 'unlocked' handsets are also not supported and further updates disributed via the Orange update service or via Microsoft may also fail to work on such handsets.

Comments : Hmm well there you have no-one wanted to hear but we've all been waiting for it! (have we)

This is in no means an official statement or in anyway endorsed by or connect with either Orange Personal Communications Services or Microsoft.

What it is, is something which has been supplied to me in the strictist of confidenve so please do not ask where I have optained such information.

Finaly the above mentioned is for informational uses only and is not meant to be treated as FACT.

But it does make you think.

[Guest Firaas]

Although customers with handsets that are already de-certified may not be able to apply such an update correctly as this is not supported by either Microsoft and/or Orange.  

... Either way 'unlocked' handsets are also not supported and further updates disributed via the Orange update service or via Microsoft may also fail to work on such handsets.

For those concerned, this won't be a problem as:

a) The major update should erase, then flash the ROM anyway

;) In no way are the rights of the network operator compromised by giving you "Manager" access to your phone

.

[Guest vampyre69]

Further discussion tells me that this particular update may search for some kind of certification applet first.

If it finds it - it will continue.

If it doesn't then - sorry there was an error updating your handset please contact your vendor. kind of thing.

Not concrete but apparently this option is being pursued wether or not it will be implemented is another thing.

-- HOT NEWS ---

Apperently there is a de-certified app that is very dodgy in the legal area that will 'restore you app-signing features etc. Again this is being developed but not definate (probably by the same people that will/are writing the update etc!! lol)

[Guest Gorskar]

This is what I plan do do when update comes:

1)Backup IPSM

2)Apply update. If update fails (dues to checking for certification) then hard reset first then apply update.

3)Restore IPSM

4)Enjoy an updated phone without any certification gestapo running on it.

[Guest akarno]

It has also been mentioned that it is uncertain at this time wether microsoft may release such an upate directly to the end user or if Orange will do so vie their update system.

This does not sound right to me. which makes me a little sceptical about the rest of it. Here is a message from the Microsoft newsgroup from a Microsoft employee.

We work closely with everyone involved (OEMs, Operators, and end users) to determine what makes it into each release, be it an update or a full-on next generation product.

For an update specifically the distribution mechanism is the same as for

Pocket PCs. Microsoft writes the update and distributes it to the OEMs and

operators for delivery to their customers. In addition the OEM may chose to release a package of OEM-specific updates (drivers, radio stack, etc.), and the distribution mechanism for those is the same.

--

Neil Enns

Lead Program Manager

Microsoft Mobile Devices Product Group

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

[Guest vampyre69]

good point arkano I couldn't see why microsoft would want to bypass orange on a major update and do it themselves unless they wanted to release an OS release or update that might distribute via PC download or CD for a Sync'd installation rather than the prefered handset installtion.

But then this leads back to the statement you listed above why bypass orange.

Orange are seen to be the supplier/manufacture of the phone and offer the end user support for it so why they wouldn't supply such and update to Orange through channelled distribution in the normal way is rather a questionable aspect of the above mentioned.

It could even make Orange look incabable of fully supporting there products/services so I would have it a gues and say this would not happen.

If orange don't supply the update why should they support it? unless OS support is going to be handed over to the OS manufacture.

Which I very much doubt will happen as Orange would want full control over their SPV client base.

[Guest Tyrant_worm]

This sort of thing is invariably economic/infrastructure based, I would suggest that Orange has said to M/S, " you have supplied us with an O/S which requires a 16mb service pack, your product was incomplete, fix it! "

Many drivers for Radio stack etc will be HTC(and other implementations which use same hardware/chipset etc) specific, in short these will be addressed between O/S manufacturer and H/W manufacturer and should be seen as separate to pure O/S issues which should be fixed by M/S alone.

A quick note on support with cert unlocked SPV's, there is nothing in the mod of provxml which can cause problems with an update. What is likely to occur is that an updated handset will be certificate restricted but there is nothing to say that the handset cannot be unlocked as before. Keen coders out there may be able to advise further, but I think short of having the handset reflashed at bios level, or rescripting activesync(?) this will be a hard loophole to close fully.

[Guest Monolithix [MVP]]

It's an activesync "problem" that allows you to apply the edited provxml's. The PC side version of activesync picks up on the SPV before the .provxml's are processed.

Were an "updated" version of activesync for the SPV released, that didn't start talking to your PC mid-boot, we would then start having problems, as there would be no way of replacing the files before they are processed...

[Guest awarner [MVP]]

Monolitix did you have to go and say that?

Now Orange R&D will see your post and know what to do :lol:

you know they have learnt everything from us ;)

[Guest Gorskar]

Quick! edit your post before its too late and they see it!

... but fixing activesync now would be shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted, because there is a perfectly good copy on the CD that came with the phone, that I have no intention of "updating".

Everyone with an SPV has this version, and if they change the version that is on the CD then Im sure people will get hold of the previous version if they want it.

[Guest Monolithix [MVP]]

It's ActiveSync on the SPV side thats allowing the editing, as it starts trying to talk to your PC version before the .provxml's are processed, nothing to do with the PC version on the CD...

awarner: I'll patent the idea and sue Orange when they release "my" fix for it ;)

[Guest HelloDave]

awarner: I'll patent the idea and sue Orange when they release "my" fix for it

You could always sell it on Ebay :wink:

[Guest Gorskar]

Ah ok i stand corrected.