Go easy on ZTE

[Guest Andoidian]

Hi there,

I've recently noticed some criticism over the way ZTE are handling kernel releases etc, and I think it's a little unfair.

ZTE is a Chinese company, and you are buying a Chinese product, that they have kindly modified to suit us folk. They have no operational base here, they just ship units to Orange (and several other exclusive suppliers and handlers all over the world.

They aren't like Samsung, who have their tentacles in every facet of the globe - they've just been contracted by Orange and Co to send out a few handsets. You're not getting the product from ZTE, you're getting it from a company that has gone to China and sorted out a deal.

Their focus is very much on China, and given that the blade has barely launched there it's no surprise that there aren't kernels yet available etc. They probably don't even know forums like this exist. Why would they? The vast vast majority of their custom is in China. They're not out of touch - someone has just rebranded their product and flung it to a far and distant country.

Just be glad they've given us this phone, and cut out all the rubbish that they 'owe you it' etc.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Andoidian

[Guest fonix232]

Hi there,

I've recently noticed some criticism over the way ZTE are handling kernel releases etc, and I think it's a little unfair.

ZTE is a chinese company, and you are buying a chinese product, that they have kindly modified to suit us folk. They have no operational base here, they just ship units to Orange (and several other exclusive suppliers and handlers all over the world.

They aren't like Samsung, who have their tentacles in every facet of the globe - they've just been contracted by Orange and Co to send out a few handsets. You're not getting the product from ZTE, you're getting it from a company that has gone to China and sorted out a deal.

Their focus is very much on China, and given that the blade has barely launched there it's no surprise that there aren't kernels yet available etc. They probably don't even know forums like this exist. Why would they? The vast vast majority of their custom is in China. They're not out of touch - someone has just rebranded their product and flung it to a far and distant country.

Just be glad they've given us this phone, and cut out all the rubbish that they 'owe you it' etc.

Although you are basically right, the statement that they are Chinese does not give them the chance to break the licencing policies. If the license says you must publish the modified source, then you HAVE to, or you may not continue using it. And thus, the lawyers won't be accepting anything as a reason, even if they are Chinese and can't understand english well!

[Guest hmcguirk]

Hi there,

I've recently noticed some criticism over the way ZTE are handling kernel releases etc, and I think it's a little unfair.

ZTE is a Chinese company, and you are buying a Chinese product, that they have kindly modified to suit us folk. They have no operational base here, they just ship units to Orange (and several other exclusive suppliers and handlers all over the world.

They aren't like Samsung, who have their tentacles in every facet of the globe - they've just been contracted by Orange and Co to send out a few handsets. You're not getting the product from ZTE, you're getting it from a company that has gone to China and sorted out a deal.

Their focus is very much on China, and given that the blade has barely launched there it's no surprise that there aren't kernels yet available etc. They probably don't even know forums like this exist. Why would they? The vast vast majority of their custom is in China. They're not out of touch - someone has just rebranded their product and flung it to a far and distant country.

Just be glad they've given us this phone, and cut out all the rubbish that they 'owe you it' etc.

I disagree, take a look at their own press release: http://wwwen.zte.com.cn/en/press_center/pr...213_195847.html

They are doing pretty well, and seem to be well aware of this sort of site: "Interestingly, it appears a grey market for these devices has emerged because they are so popular among consumers"

[Guest Andoidian]

Although you are basically right, the statement that they are Chinese does not give them the chance to break the licencing policies. If the license says you must publish the modified source, then you HAVE to, or you may not continue using it. And thus, the lawyers won't be accepting anything as a reason, even if they are Chinese and can't understand english well!

I'm not saying that they shouldn't release the kernels etc, but give it a bit of time.

Getting a handfull of emails from a pokey couple of countries in numerous different languages, all to a customer service rep that can't distinguish arse from elbow is going to lead to slow progress.

It's the equivalent of me selling 10,000,000 units in England, then 100 people buying them from Mongolia. They then make a few complaint posts on a Mongolian forum, then email me in Mongolian.

Slow process. I'm sure you'll get the kernels, but bear in mind who you're dealing with - Orange.

ZTE have nothing to do with the sales. They just make a few units and put them in a box for Orange to do with what they please. The convenience of buying one isn't representative of your relationship wioth the manufacturer. They're in a country thousands of miles away, unaware that you exist.

[Guest Andoidian]

I disagree, take a look at their own press release: http://wwwen.zte.com.cn/en/press_center/pr...213_195847.html

They are doing pretty well, and seem to be well aware of this sort of site: "Interestingly, it appears a grey market for these devices has emerged because they are so popular among consumers"

Yes they have a few sales here, but they are pitiful when compared to the Chinese side of the business.

As with all of their products, they're not bringing them to market. A few (typically exclusive) suppliers have dragged them over.

I'm sure we'll get the kernel, but just don't get your panties in a twist while we're waiting.

[Guest vl4d1m1r]

This topic is a waste of time. The licensing agreement is clear as day. ZTE have taken other peoples work and are disrespecting the authors by not abiding by the license agreement.

There is no excuse for this. None. Calls to 'go easy on them' paint ZTE as a poor victim, when they are making money off the works of others without fulfilling their own obligations.

[Guest punkmilitia]

I feel much more clued up afer reading this thread, I did kind of think to myself WTF when I read the title, thank you all those who commented and helped me understand this situation more.

[Guest cbrpaul]

so open source = close source , thats a new one on me !!

[Guest fonix232]

I'm not saying that they shouldn't release the kernels etc, but give it a bit of time.

Getting a handfull of emails from a pokey couple of countries in numerous different languages, all to a customer service rep that can't distinguish arse from elbow is going to lead to slow progress.

It's the equivalent of me selling 10,000,000 units in England, then 100 people buying them from Mongolia. They then make a few complaint posts on a Mongolian forum, then email me in Mongolian.

Slow process. I'm sure you'll get the kernels, but bear in mind who you're dealing with - Orange.

ZTE have nothing to do with the sales. They just make a few units and put them in a box for Orange to do with what they please. The convenience of buying one isn't representative of your relationship wioth the manufacturer. They're in a country thousands of miles away, unaware that you exist.

But, it isn't Orange who made the software, but ZTE! So, ZTE HAS TO RELEASE THE CODE, NOT ORANGE. It is that clear.

And please, the Blade isn't even out in China yet, but already sold a few millions in Europe! Compare 0 vs the devices sold here, you got it right?

Oh, do not forget, it isn't equivalent! While ZTE manufactures a lot of stuffs, it's biggest market is the EU, and America too!

If you come to Hungary, and take a look at the radio phone towers, from inside, you will see a LOT OF ZTE logo! Almost all technical elements are made by ZTE, and we are talking about millions, if not billions of towers! And the ZTE phones are here too: T-Mobile Vairy series is a ZTE made, but T-Mobile branded phone series.

[Guest Simon O]

ZTE had the Eclair kernel source online before the Blade was released. Granted it was buggy but they did fix it. They have said they will release the Froyo kernel source soon and I do believe they will do this. The ZTE guys are obviously aware of this forum and probably even visit it now and again. Makes me wonder how many of our Chinese members are actually ZTE employees :unsure:

ZTE will deliver the source to us. They are a thousand times better than another Chinese mobile phone manufacturer called Huawei...

edit: anyone got an email for Wu Sa at ZTE UK B)

Edited January 5, 2011 by flibblesan

[Guest Lew247]

I actually agree with both camps on this

Yes ZTE have to supply the info - however there is no time requirement, nothing says it has to be the second they make the item and it don't say it cant be up to a few months/years after it is released

I agree with those who say - give them a chance and be patient

We have a fantastic phone< I know of no other phone or device of similar quality/specs for the price.

If we don't push them too much and let them do things in their own time with gentle reminders now and again from a few people we MAY get an updated phone sometime in the next year with even greater specs but again a low price

I'm personally hoping for something similar with a 1ghz cpu or even one of the new dual core ones, and if they could produce that at a cost lower than all the rest the same as this blade is then I think everyone would be extremely happy

However if we start being a right pain in their rear end, threatening solicitors and court action over something like that when patience is all that is required then they may decide it's not worth the trouble developing similar items in the future and may move onto producing other electronic items or just not releasing them for sale abroad.

Give them 6 months maybe a year and I bet they will have released them by then, in the meantime the people to nag and threaten solicitors is not ZTE who manufactured the phone, but the people we have a contract with - the phone companies who sell the phone, we have contracts with them once we buy if off them, chase them for the details, let them chase ZTE for it and not us.

[Guest yadayada]

ZTE is a Chinese company, and you are buying a Chinese product, that they have kindly modified to suit us folk. They have no operational base here, they just ship units to Orange (and several other exclusive suppliers and handlers all over the world.

They aren't like Samsung, who have their tentacles in every facet of the globe - they've just been contracted by Orange and Co to send out a few handsets. You're not getting the product from ZTE, you're getting it from a company that has gone to China and sorted out a deal.

Poor ZTE, I'm almost in tears...

From their website

The company has 15 global R&D centers in the U.S, France, Sweden, India and China. It employs 25,000 researchers around the world, developing new and innovative products covering more than 30,000 issued and pending patents.

ZTE’s products and solutions can be found in over 140 countries, servicing 59 of the world’s top 100 telecom operators.

And if you go to their local presence, I can count 18 offices just in Europe...

The rules are for everyone, you use android code, you "spit" it out to the world.

But probably in first instance, the responsible for providing source code is the declared brand, so if a phone is sold as an Orange Baghdad or Vodafone V666, instead of Sony Ericsson K123, Samsung Planet S or ZTE Blade, then Orange and such should be the ones providing it. Although their contribution was probably just custom apps and art logos. If you sell it as your own creation, you get this boring stuff to do. Don't know how this works in these cases.

Anyway the source code "begging" to ZTE, should (probably) be made by the Oranges of this world.

[Guest Simon O]

Poor ZTE, I'm almost in tears...

From their website

And if you go to their local presence, I can count 18 offices just in Europe...

The rules are for everyone, you use android code, you "spit" it out to the world.

But probably in first instance, the responsible for providing source code is the declared brand, so if a phone is sold as an Orange Baghdad or Vodafone V666, instead of Sony Ericsson K123, Samsung Planet S or ZTE Blade, then Orange and such should be the ones providing it. Although their contribution was probably just custom apps and art logos. If you sell it as your own creation, you get this boring stuff to do. Don't know how this works in these cases.

Anyway the source code "begging" to ZTE, should (probably) be made by the Oranges of this world.

You are incorrect. The manufacturer is the one using the code so they have to release it themselves. ZTE have released code in the past themselves for Eclair, they will do so for Froyo. HTC release the code themselves, so do LG and other manufacturers. Nothing to worry about unless ZTE refuse to release it.

[Guest jurrasstoil]

Anyway the source code "begging" to ZTE, should (probably) be made by the Oranges of this world.

The problem is that the "Oranges of this world" seem like they couldn't care less :unsure:

like i said in another thread: i don't see any reason to postpone the release of the kernelsource.

[Guest yadayada]

You are incorrect. The manufacturer is the one using the code so they have to release it themselves. ZTE have released code in the past themselves for Eclair, they will do so for Froyo. HTC release the code themselves, so do LG and other manufacturers. Nothing to worry about unless ZTE refuse to release it.

I was (over) extrapolating the consumer rights to the open source rules.

Sorry about that.

[Guest Meizirkki]

Better not bite the hand that feeds! :unsure: They promised 2.2 sources before 7th, didn't they? If they keep their word it's not too long time to wait.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Meizirkki

[Guest lordofangels]

Better not bite the hand that feeds! :unsure: They promised 2.2 sources before 7th, didn't they? If they keep their word it's not too long time to wait.

Meizirkki is correct, we can't really complain till after the 7th,

lets wait and see, only a couple of days to go.

[Guest Ronald Hummelink]

Many people do not quite understand the GPL.

The obligation ZTE has is to give buyers of the phone the 2.1 sources, and they did. They don't actually have to make it available to anyone else cept actual buyers. They don't have to make it available for public download (but you can once you get it)

The only people who have any right to complain are the Softbank model buyers, as that unit actually ships with 2.2.

A company is allowed to take GPL sources, modify it, and keep it to themselfes. it is only when they release binaries when the GPL starts to rear its ugly head.

The leaks I don't consider releases, nor romdumps. (In fact, the person releasing the dump would become liable for handing out the source, not ZTE)

Anybody who offends ZTE with any form of abuse, I consider you uncool.

[Guest Victor von Zeppelin]

anyone got an email for Wu Sa at ZTE UK :unsure:

Ooh, are these the nice type of "things are coming" emails?

[Guest sawta]

Hi there,

I've recently noticed some criticism over the way ZTE are handling kernel releases etc, and I think it's a little unfair.

ZTE is a Chinese company, and you are buying a Chinese product, that they have kindly modified to suit us folk. They have no operational base here, they just ship units to Orange (and several other exclusive suppliers and handlers all over the world.

They aren't like Samsung, who have their tentacles in every facet of the globe - they've just been contracted by Orange and Co to send out a few handsets. You're not getting the product from ZTE, you're getting it from a company that has gone to China and sorted out a deal.

Their focus is very much on China, and given that the blade has barely launched there it's no surprise that there aren't kernels yet available etc. They probably don't even know forums like this exist. Why would they? The vast vast majority of their custom is in China. They're not out of touch - someone has just rebranded their product and flung it to a far and distant country.

Just be glad they've given us this phone, and cut out all the rubbish that they 'owe you it' etc.

A little ZTE assisted history quoted from wikipedia

By 2008 ZTE would be able to claim its customer base was truly global, as it had made sales in 140 countries.

In 2009 the company had become the worldwide third-largest vendor of GSM telecom equipment, and ZTE sales accounted for about twenty percent of all GSM gear sold throughout the world that year.

ZTE are a big company that have Austria, German, Hong kong and USA based subsidiary branches.

They do owe us (the Linux development community, not people who purchased their handsets) their modifications to the source code, its a stipulation of the open source licence for the software they decided to USE/adopt.

AM I worried that ZTE wont commit back to the community? NO

ZTE are spearheading many Opensource Software Defined Radio projects and are a well behaved member of the opensource community, we are just anxious to get our new toy.

Anyone who has ever worked with software and source code revisioning systems has ecxperienced how counter-productive it is to package, refractor and release code to the public.

We simply need to wait for the time of the quarter/month that ZTE have designated as the code release day, personally I do not envy their task...... the blade isnt their only product

Edited January 5, 2011 by sawta

[Guest flatpro]

It can only be good for ZTE to work with the developer community.

It costs them very little to release source code and they are gaining a following plus lots of free feedback. I wish orange would read this forum and realize people don't want to have orange menus on there phone.

Looking at win 7 phones, it's nice to get the experience the developer intended (as least as far as I understand it) rather then a cheap skin with lots of bugs!

[Guest Simon O]

Ooh, are these the nice type of "things are coming" emails?

Nah I want his email, not that I got an email from him :unsure:

[Guest cartierv]

I don't understand. Threads like this make Linux users look like lunatics.

ZTE will release it at some point.

Edited January 6, 2011 by cartierv

[Guest ZforZelda]

I don't agree with you that the Chinese market is much more important to ZTE than oversea, how much do you know about ZTE?

I'm Chinese and the ZTE office in Beijing is not far from me, as far as I know, this company is mainly targeting overseas, at least the mobile department, I can see their advertisement about their success in France/Europe everyday on my way to work.

and in contrary, the Chinese Blade variant - ZTE V880 is not even released yet.

a few years ago - before android was born, I got the chance talking to someone important in the business, his quote on linux: "所有人都喜欢Linux, 却又怕被Linux伤害"/"Linux is like roses, they are lovely but they have thorns".

Intellectual property protection is minimal here in China, I guess their main concern is that competitors could just copy their design and use their code to make competitive products - without the cost to hire expensive kernel developers.

and, might be the code is ugly and it's a shame to release them, they need the time to clean them up.

Edited January 6, 2011 by ZforZelda

[Guest samjam]

Many people do not quite understand the GPL.

The obligation ZTE has is to give buyers of the phone the 2.1 sources, and they did. They don't actually have to make it available to anyone else cept actual buyers. They don't have to make it available for public download (but you can once you get it)

The only people who have any right to complain are the Softbank model buyers, as that unit actually ships with 2.2.

This is not true, you do not understand the GPL. Have you ever even read it all? I have read it many times, as well as the explanations. I've also been involved in discussions with FSF licensing, blah blah.

If ZTE do not ship the source with the device (as is one option for them to meet their GPL obligations) then they must offer the source at minimal cost to any third party (that means anyone and everyone in the world). The reason is that I might buy a softbank and then sell it on. I can't pass on the source as I didn't receive it, so the buyer goes to ZTE for the source.

I refer you to: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0.html section 3:

3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

b ) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)

it looks like they have gone for option B (their own choice). If they do not comply then they have NO RIGHT to distribute the software:

4. You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or distribute the Program except as expressly provided under this License. Any attempt otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense or distribute the Program is void, and will automatically terminate your rights under this License. However, parties who have received copies, or rights, from you under this License will not have their licenses terminated so long as such parties remain in full compliance.

5. You are not required to accept this License, since you have not signed it. However, nothing else grants you permission to modify or distribute the Program or its derivative works. These actions are prohibited by law if you do not accept this License. Therefore, by modifying or distributing the Program (or any work based on the Program), you indicate your acceptance of this License to do so, and all its terms and conditions for copying, distributing or modifying the Program or works based on it.

At a previous company, when I was responsible for GPL compliance, I made sure we shipped the source on the CD that accompanied the product so that our obligations would be over at the point of shipment - it made things very simple to manage.

However softly anyone may feel towards ZTE, if they do not comply with the terms of the license then they are in breach of copyright, and a claim may be made by the copyright holders (if they are interested). As far as I know, as a customer, you have no rights to enforce GPL compliance, unless some of your work is part of the software being shipped.

And as has been said there is no reason to suppose that they will fail to meet their obligation. I expect that they will comply very willingly and fairly.