Guest samjam Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 I've been thinking about the forum problem. In the old days of usenet (NNTP news, yeah, over 15 years ago) threads were more "disposable" and often expired and vanished. I remember how exciting when some University student project became dejanews and then google bought it and launched google groups with a full news archive.... but the point is, like Usenet, these are conversational threads and not informational threads - the information content is very low and it takes a lot of reading to discover if a claim or statement is contradicted later on or becomes superseded later on. The fact that threads are archived forever doesn't actually help very much. The old way of doing it is somewhat similar to pinned threads and reserving first posts, where a FAQ maintainer would collect answers to frequently asked questions and post them regularly. This need was better filled by web-pages, and specifically, wiki's later on. Now we ask ourselves: Is anything we say to the current bunch of newbies going to affect the way the next wave of newbies behaves - and the answer is "no!" So this forums as they are used now are the wrong solution to the problem. The forums are a conversation tool, the newbies want a guide. Some users do an excellent job of collecting information (the jargon guide, the rom flashing guide) etc, and this goes a long way - but we see isn't alone solving the problem. I wonder if the wikipedia idea is good, which is to say that each page has discussion to go with it - or rather in our case, each thread MAY have a wiki page to go with it. Reserving the top posts is a bit like this, but would work better if there were a master-wiki-page to link to them all. (Plus not just anyone can update the top post.) Announcements is similar, but still not enough. I think the answer is an optional wiki-style page for each thread which displays first, and a wiki-style page for each forum which can be a guide to the forum, and filter newbies direct to each specific page which has in it collected in one place and up to date the information they need. I've heard mention of, but can't find, wiki's in modaco.
Guest Stuart_f Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) forums are a conversation tool, the newbies want a guide. I'll agree that a guide is what they need but what they want is to start a new thread called "HELP!!!!111eleventyone" and have someone spend time fixing their exact problem RIGHT NOW!! I've heard mention of, but can't find, wiki's in modaco. http://wiki.modaco.com I'll agree with you that tighter integration of the wiki would help a lot. In effect, all of the stickies should really be in the wiki unless they are only valid for a short period of time. Until there's a better method for flipping between the wiki and the forum I doubt this will happen. Edit: 300th post and I didn't tell anyone to use search in it... damn, missed opportunity! Edited January 7, 2011 by Stuart_f
Guest rufree2talk Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) http://wiki.modaco.com/index.php/Main_Page EDIT: sorry about the repeated post; the previous poster was faster... Edited January 7, 2011 by rufree2talk
Guest iashraf Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Hi there, I don't think that there is anything wrong with how "newbies" behave on this website. The very nature of this fast-growing forum means that dormant threads get filtered down and the hot topics stay on the first page. There isn't really an issue with this forum being filled up with nonsense - it's all relevant discussion and it's all very important. An important issue to some folks may be the latest and greatest roms, mods and hacks -- and important issues to other may be about other things that some may find less pertinent, but regarding the phone anyway. Everyone here has the right to talk about anything they like, and if this forum becomes too heavy on the technical hacky stuff, and loses the lower-level conversations -- though it probably would become a more concentrated source for specific information, it would become rather boring to browse B) Take it easy, and welcome the "newbies", because we're all family here! :unsure:
Guest samjam Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Take it easy, and welcome the "newbies", because we're all family here! :unsure: I'm with you, but it's causing some heat; so as we are family - even the heated ones! - I'm looking for a solution for everyone
Guest iashraf Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 I'll agree that a guide is what they need but what they want is to start a new thread called "HELP!!!!111eleventyone" and have someone spend time fixing their exact problem RIGHT NOW!! I think people should understand that some of the topics on this forum has brought "device hacking" to the layman, like me. Before coming on this forum, I didn't know anything about roms, and the posts here helped me to modify my device. If someone follows a tutorial here and screws up their device -- and not being a uber 1337 h4ck3r that knows exactly what they are doing -- they are going to post here in a panic expecting to be helped immediately. When I first flashed my blade, it all turned blue -- i thought that i had killed it and promptly exchanged it in a panic, only because I was at work near the shop that I brought it from. Otherwise, I would have posted here in a panic!!
Guest Stuart_f Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Well your registration date shows as 24 Dec but the solution to the blue tint was available on the forums on 22 Dec so if you'd have searched you would have seen it. I admit it only became a sticky on 29 Dec when the issue became more widespread as the TFT models became more common.
Guest iashraf Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Well your registration date shows as 24 Dec but the solution to the blue tint was available on the forums on 22 Dec so if you'd have searched you would have seen it. I admit it only became a sticky on 29 Dec when the issue became more widespread as the TFT models became more common. exactly my point.. you can't have forum etiquette, it's simply a waste of time as it can't be enforced (and probably shouldn't be)... there's something not right with normal forum members policing other members - that's a moderators job. As much as people should search before posting, etc, etc... members (im certainly not talking about you) should also try and remain polite to people who perhaps don't know about "forum etiquette"
Guest StevenHarperUK Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 exactly my point.. you can't have forum etiquette, it's simply a waste of time as it can't be enforced (and probably shouldn't be)... there's something not right with normal forum members policing other members - that's a moderators job. As much as people should search before posting, etc, etc... members (im certainly not talking about you) should also try and remain polite to people who perhaps don't know about "forum etiquette" +1 I agree with this - We definitely need more moderators.
Guest cbrpaul Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 werent we all " newbies" once ??? Take the rough with the smooth i say , if you dont want to help a " newbie" ignor the request, simple , if someone who has bought a new SF cand omes to this great site , then tries to dabble in the rom/unlock field , has made a hash and is panicking that they may have lost their beloved SF for ever, and bleets a cry for help , i dont see a problem with that really !!! Yes there are very very experianced people here , but surely its a place for all types of users insnt it ? But from what i can see so far in my short time here is , many/most of the more "experianced" members here are only to glad to help out anyone. Fantastic forum , and long may it last :unsure:
Guest samjam Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Well your registration date shows as 24 Dec but the solution to the blue tint was available on the forums on 22 Dec so if you'd have searched you would have seen it. I admit it only became a sticky on 29 Dec when the issue became more widespread as the TFT models became more common. You are right, but try searching for "blue tint" in this forum and see what you get - 27 threads, many with over 50 posts and at least one with over 1000 posts. The search results don't help (as far as I can tell) to find the specific posts that mention "blue tint" never mind identify which ones claim to be a solution, or the fact that blue tint sometimes means oled/tft mixup and sometimes means blue-tinge on semi-transparencies. Certainly as you say the (an) answer was there, but how was it to be found? I've found that a forum search to bring up threads, followed by a topic-search on each thread could work, but it's crazy, and non-obvious
Guest WearTheFoxHat Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 +1 I agree with this - We definitely need more moderators. Sorry I shall do my best to be more active.
Guest Simon O Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 I have a guide for new members. Use the search. :unsure: 90% of the questions new members ask by making a new thread are already answered in existing threads. Quite simply it's lazy members that are causing problems for everyone else. Personally I would like to see a restricted added to the forum so that new members cannot start topics until they have been a member for two weeks and have 10 posts. There are plenty of other threads for them to post questions in that are appropiate. And we need more moderators to move or merge the useless duplicate topics around.
Guest Stuart_f Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Sorry I shall do my best to be more active. One thing that would immediately help is to merge the numerous duplicate threads on the same subject that we are subjected to on a daily basis. I could be imagining it but I think Paul has said in the past that merging threads is difficult with the current forum software. Could this be something that is worked on for MoDaCo v5 whenever that arrives?
Guest Lew247 Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 not just more moderators but moderators who will activly work here not just pop in now and again and just leave multiple posts/arguments/rudeness all untouched The posts need to be moderated properly (some of the posts anyway)
Guest iashraf Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 90% of the questions new members ask by making a new thread are already answered in existing threads. Quite simply it's lazy members that are causing problems for everyone else. What are the problems? i think this is being blown out of proportion -- what problems are you experiencing whilst browsing this forum? is the information here buried under a ton of crap? Personally I would like to see a restricted added to the forum so that new members cannot start topics until they have been a member for two weeks and have 10 posts. There are plenty of other threads for them to post questions in that are appropiate. People would then spam in order to get over these restrictions. It's immensely frustrating for a new member of a forum if there are these kinds of restrictions in place. We want to welcome new member and get people involved in discussion and discovery, not try to shut this place down... And we need more moderators to move or merge the useless duplicate topics around. Agreed! but merging gets quite confusing when you're looking for things, you know... using the "search" feature
Guest WearTheFoxHat Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 I have a guide for new members. Use the search. B) 90% of the questions new members ask by making a new thread are already answered in existing threads. Quite simply it's lazy members that are causing problems for everyone else. Personally I would like to see a restricted added to the forum so that new members cannot start topics until they have been a member for two weeks and have 10 posts. There are plenty of other threads for them to post questions in that are appropiate. And we need more moderators to move or merge the useless duplicate topics around. Interestingly I've just raised the suggestion of "Wait 24 hours before posting" AND "Wait 1 week before being able to post hyperlinks". I know on other forums I moderate, that it is possible. Just not sure about this version of MoDaCo. not just more moderators but moderators who will activly work here not just pop in now and again and just leave multiple posts/arguments/rudeness all untouched The posts need to be moderated properly (some of the posts anyway) All of the moderators get emailed each time someone Reports a topic. So rest assured that if there is an issue, we all get notified. It does seem at times that certain users confuse "Report" with "Reply" ... and we get alerted to something that should have been a forum reply! :angry: It would certainly help me, if when people report a duplicated topic, that they could provide a link to a suitable "Master" ... therefore if I'm working, I can easily jump on here, link to the master topic, and then lock the duplicate so it sinks. I'll check out merging, as that would be useful. It's available, but don't know if there are any "issues". Rudeness/Arguments - To be honest, general arguments/discussion I will ignore ... it's the Internet, and "Trolls Happen". None of us are paid to moderate, and have jobs to hold down too. I've tried to moderate topics 24/7 and it's a bit like wrapping people in cotton wool to protect them. We have to realise that this forum is likely to contain, trolls, people not familiar with forum etiquette, argumentative adolescents, and people just having a bad day. Plus different people have different perspectives. If you don't like what someone has to say, so long as they aren't going over the top, then just scroll down. :o BUT ... if anyone does take exception to a post, then people explain via "Report" and it will be addressed :unsure:
Guest samjam Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) 90% of the questions new members ask by making a new thread are already answered in existing threads. Quite simply it's lazy members that are causing problems for everyone else. Ironically, this point has also been answered a few times; the search is not a good tool for finding information in a discussion archive for these reasons: It is hard to find the informative posts because it is an archive of conversation there are many topics and posts with the key terms. Many posts mention the key terms but few posts are informative about the key terms. The search is even less than helpful because it returns topics or threads containing the key terms, not even posts! "blue tint" has 27 threads containing over 2,000 posts It is hard to tell if those informative posts (when found) have been corrected (are false) or have been superseded (are out of date). So although the answer is there, search cannot be used to confidently find it. So the forum is good for discussion, but not good as an archive of information, therefore the newbies must (and do and will) ask - and the answer is not always the same. Edited January 7, 2011 by samjam
Guest WearTheFoxHat Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Oh ... if someone who is suitably informed about the San Fran wants to do a "FAQ" type post, then feel free to start it and I will then sticky it. So long as they are prepared to keep it updated with additional info etc. Therefore I suggest a rapid succession of posts : Post 1 - Info Post 2 - Reserved Post 3 - Reserved Maybe up to Post 10 - Reserved. Then as the thread grows they can go back and add in further information. Perhaps use first post as an index. :unsure:
Guest Simon O Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Oh ... if someone who is suitably informed about the San Fran wants to do a "FAQ" type post, then feel free to start it and I will then sticky it. So long as they are prepared to keep it updated with additional info etc. Therefore I suggest a rapid succession of posts : Post 1 - Info Post 2 - Reserved Post 3 - Reserved Maybe up to Post 10 - Reserved. Then as the thread grows they can go back and add in further information. Perhaps use first post as an index. :unsure: I think StevenHarperUK is or at least was working on something like that. Already got a glossary done.
Guest WearTheFoxHat Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Yeah ... just spotted that one and pinned it.
Guest Simon O Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Yeah ... just spotted that one and pinned it. I like the idea of having some reserved posts in a thread like you suggested. Then others can post some tips and guides of their own in the thread which could be added to the main posts if good :unsure:
Guest WearTheFoxHat Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 I like the idea of having some reserved posts in a thread like you suggested. Then others can post some tips and guides of their own in the thread which could be added to the main posts if good :unsure: Yup, it keeps all the good information on the first page then, and saves having to read 100 pages of "How do I change my wallpaper?", or "What is O2's APN?". In other news, I just tried merging two duplicated topics ... it wouldn't play ball I'm afraid. But then again, if caught quick enough, I think "Link, Lock and sink" works far better.
Guest Arr Too Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Cool! Just seen your first(?) locked dup thread, WearTheFoxHat. How do you (and the other mods, and Paul) feel about some sub-forums here?
Guest WearTheFoxHat Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Cool! Just seen your first(?) locked dup thread, WearTheFoxHat. How do you (and the other mods, and Paul) feel about some sub-forums here? Hmmm I haven't spoke to Paul about it ... but I suspect: * People don't search enough as it is * Adding another layer would just mean that everything would get posted in a "General" subforum I quite like the suggestion within the forum of using tags [ROM] [FAQ] [GLOSSARY] etc.
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