Windows 7 98 and XP on Vega

[Guest blcollier]

I posted links to files for the Windows Embedded Compact 7 if anyone is interested. I just didnt know what to do with them. And no one seemed interested with it. Its posted over at XDA. I guess Torradex has a bootloader and image for WinCE7 to run on Tegra2.

XDA Post

From what I've been able to gather, a rather big prerequisite is a BSP (board support package) for the Tegra 2 Harmony platform. Toradex - or however you spell it - have released a BSP, but it is for their Tegra 2 module and Colibri carrier board - not the Harmony reference design that the Vega uses. As far as I can tell, Nvidia are only supporting Harmony for Android and only as far as FroYo - it remains to be seen whether the Colibri BSP will also work with the Vega. I have seen mention of Windows Embedded Compact 6, but this is not the current version.

I highly doubt the OP has overcome this, if so I'd very much like them to share how they got a Harmony BSP for WinCE7. Either way, this thread has intrigued me somewhat regarding Windows Embedded Compact 7. I'm downloading a trial copy to have a play around with (prerequisites: Visual Studio 2008 with SP1 - ouch!!).

[Guest simonta]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, I really don't, but I think it's only fair that expectations are set honestly.

IMHO, the chances of any flavour of Windows running on a Vega are, to all intents and purposes, zero. Here's why.

Windows Desktop Operating Systems, 98, XP, Vista, Win7

These are simply never going to run. They are not compiled for the ARM architecture that the Vega CPU uses. The scale of this simple problem should not be underestimated. The source code for all of these versions of Windows is not available therefore, it cannot be recompiled. Even if it could, someone would have to write a full set of device drivers needed to make anything actually work - from scratch as no drivers for Windows on Tegra exist. Because it cannot be recompiled, the only way to run it would be on an emulation layer. To write such a layer would be an enormous effort, certainly a multi-person multi-year development. Even if someone did this, it would be a processor emulator (Google it) and the performance would suck big time. Finally, the kernel and the emulation layer would, if someone wrote spankingly code code, take at least 100MB of RAM. That leaves us with something around 400MB (maybe). Now Windows will run just fine in 400MB, stripped down and without any apps. Start loading any meaningful apps and 512MB soon becomes too small. In order to provide more memory, Windows would have to use swap files (Google it) to make it appear that Windows had more RAM than the Vega is fitted with. The only place to put swap would be on the SD Card. Now swap files use many many writes per minute and most SD Cards would fail in fairly short order as even the latest SD Cards have a relatively short number of write cycles before dying. I could go on but hopefully by now, you'll agree it's a non-starter.

"Native Windows Libraries". See WINE - http://www.winehq.org/

Something like WINE, because it's open source, could potentially be compiled onto Tegra. However, that in itself would be a huge effort and would only ever end up in a "lowest common denominator" set of functions meaning that the number of Windows apps that would run would be limited and you could forget about apps that need DirectX or other Windows technologies that work with the hardware at a low level. It's technically possible for something like WINE to run on a Vega but I believe that the amount of work required pushes it out of the hobbyist arena and good luck trying to get a developer community working to port the existing code to Vega. Compared to running Windows apps on Linux, BSD and OSX, the numbers are just not there.

Windows Compact/Embedded

This is a possibility as it already runs on ARM. However, it would have to run natively on the Vega (otherwise, see above) and would therefore need a lot of work doing with device drivers - the source for which does not exist. Even if someone did all of that work, and it's a big if, how many apps are available for Windows Compact? Minuscule compared to Android. No Facebook, no Twitter, no iPlayer, no YouTube, no Google apps; and you can't buy Office or Outlook off the shelf, you'd have to steal them so you end up with Windows Compact (and frankly, the UI sucks big time on a mobile device - it's the prime reason why Windows Mobile never took off) with a bunch of illegal software. Doesn't sound terribly appealing.

To summarise, I'd love to be wrong, as if often the case, but I think the honest thing to do is to say stop holding your breath, this isn't going to happen.

Cheers all.

Edited August 18, 2011 by simonta

[Guest phil8715]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, I really don't, but I think it's only fair that expectations are set honestly.

IMHO, the chances of any flavour of Windows running on a Vega are, to all intents and purposes, zero. Here's why.

Windows Desktop Operating Systems, 98, XP, Vista, Win7

These are simply never going to run. They are not compiled for the ARM architecture that the Vega CPU uses. The scale of this simple problem should not be underestimated. The source code for all of these versions of Windows is not available therefore, it cannot be recompiled. Even if it could, someone would have to write a full set of device drivers needed to make anything actually work - from scratch as no drivers for Windows on Tegra exist. Because it cannot be recompiled, the only way to run it would be on an emulation layer. To write such a layer would be an enormous effort, certainly a multi-person multi-year development. Even if someone did this, it would be a processor emulator (Google it) and the performance would suck big time. Finally, the kernel and the emulation layer would, if someone wrote spankingly code code, take at least 100MB of RAM. That leaves us with something around 400MB (maybe). Now Windows will run just fine in 400MB, stripped down and without any apps. Start loading any meaningful apps and 512MB soon becomes too small. In order to provide more memory, Windows would have to use swap files (Google it) to make it appear that Windows had more RAM than the Vega is fitted with. The only place to put swap would be on the SD Card. Now swap files use many many writes per minute and most SD Cards would fail in fairly short order as even the latest SD Cards have a relatively short number of write cycles before dying. I could go on but hopefully by now, you'll agree it's a non-starter.

"Native Windows Libraries". See WINE - http://www.winehq.org/

Something like WINE, because it's open source, could potentially be compiled onto Tegra. However, that in itself would be a huge effort and would only ever end up in a "lowest common denominator" set of functions meaning that the number of Windows apps that would run would be limited and you could forget about apps that need DirectX or other Windows technologies that work with the hardware at a low level. It's technically possible for something like WINE to run on a Vega but I believe that the amount of work required pushes it out of the hobbyist arena and good luck trying to get a developer community working to port the existing code to Vega. Compared to running Windows apps on Linux, BSD and OSX, the numbers are just not there.

Windows Compact/Embedded

This is a possibility as it already runs on ARM. However, it would have to run natively on the Vega (otherwise, see above) and would therefore need a lot of work doing with device drivers - the source for which does not exist. Even if someone did all of that work, and it's a big if, how many apps are available for Windows Compact? Minuscule compared to Android. No Facebook, no Twitter, no iPlayer, no YouTube, no Google apps; and you can't buy Office or Outlook off the shelf, you'd have to steal them so you end up with Windows Compact (and frankly, the UI sucks big time on a mobile device - it's the prime reason why Windows Mobile never took off) with a bunch of illegal software. Doesn't sound terribly appealing.

To summarise, I'd love to be wrong, as if often the case, but I think the honest thing to do is to say stop holding your breath, this isn't going to happen.

Cheers all.

So CE as in Windows CE actually mean Compact Embedded?

[Guest blcollier]

So CE as in Windows CE actually mean Compact Embedded?

Originally it actually stood for "Compact Edition". Windows Mobile was basically built on top of WinCE (though Windows Mobile != WinCE). It was renamed to Windows Embedded Compact several years ago.

Edited August 18, 2011 by blcollier

[Guest MechAniX.One]

I had heard that Compact 7 is built the same as Windows Mobile 7 and that you could use the Windows Mobile apps on it. This is what i read some where so dont quote me on it.

[Guest blcollier]

I had heard that Compact 7 is built the same as Windows Mobile 7 and that you could use the Windows Mobile apps on it. This is what i read some where so dont quote me on it.

It's very likely the same as the relationship between Windows Mobile and WinCE. WinCE, or rather Embedded Compact, provides the host operating system, drivers, etc, and then Windows Mobile 7 is the framework and interface built on top of it. Even if someone were to get Embedded Compact 7 running on the Vega (which I doubt would happen) it would still not be WinMo7.

Think of Linux & Android. At the most basic level, they both use a similar kernel - the very core of the OS. The actual operating system is the collection of applications, libraries, etc built around the kernel. Even though Linux & Android are based on more or less the same foundations, that doesn't mean that you can run the same applications on Android as you can on Linux.

[Guest Busko]

would windows 8 beta not work on this since it supports ARM cores now ?

[Guest Genieuk]

Well if you could get an x86 emulator going, then I don't see why you could not install any PC operating system you like.

Would be interesting, so good luck, I'd love to see this being worked on.

[Guest simonta]

Well if you could get an x86 emulator going, then I don't see why you could not install any PC operating system you like.

Would be interesting, so good luck, I'd love to see this being worked on.

Yeh, you could. Forget how long it takes to develop, a CPU emulator has to emulate (translate) every single processor instruction. The performance would be truly dreadful. You'd click a button, then go get a bacon butty whilst you wait for something to happen.

The only feasible answer would be a virtual machine, but you'll be waiting a longggggg time for that. Hence my recommendation not to hold your breath ;)

Jeez, I'm inciting people to prove me wrong here aren't I?

[Guest simonta]

would windows 8 beta not work on this since it supports ARM cores now ?

Windows 8 is a (faint) possibility. I say faint, because even if Windows runs, you need a stack of device drivers underneath it to talk to the hardware and I can't see where Harmony device drivers might come from. Many device drivers are trivial. Things like network and display drivers certainly are not! To get hardware accelerated drivers for Windows 8 seems like a forlorn hope to me.

[Guest warriorscot]

Possible yes, Microsoft has done it. But from what MS has said about the development they had to rip the whole thing down to basics and recode from the ground up. And not just the kernel level stuff but every single app needed to be reprogrammed for them to work properly on ARM. Honestly don't see the appeal really I would rather have a bespoke tablet OS meant for the hardware than something crammed on.

[Guest liamb1234]

Hi guys, this is intresting stuff.

Can we determine if this will ever come to being? Id llve w7 but dont know how u would get round liscensing for one.

Will this happen. Is anyone actually working on a release?

thank you.

[Guest blcollier]

Hi guys, this is intresting stuff.

Can we determine if this will ever come to being? Id llve w7 but dont know how u would get round liscensing for one.

Will this happen. Is anyone actually working on a release?

thank you.

Desktop versions of Windows will never be released on the Vega - it is simply not possible. There is a tablet available with Windows 7 on it, it's the Acer Iconia W500. Or the Novatech nTablet.

[Guest newbe5]

Desktop versions of Windows will never be released on the Vega - it is simply not possible. There is a tablet available with Windows 7 on it, it's the Acer Iconia W500. Or the Novatech nTablet.

+1

I think people here know that I never say never (otherwise we wouldn't have had HC in the first place, despite people saying it wasn't possible). But this is a whole different kettle of fish. This will never happen in any kind of usable form. Sorry! Wait for Windows 8, now THAT could run on ARM, but would need a kernel tailored for the Vega (possibly, not yet sure how they expect this to work tbh).

So yea, this isn't gonna happen with anything W7 or below.

newbe5

[Guest arnookie]

This is also a thread from someone who posted a link to a "new market" that was full of warez so frankly I'd ignore them

Actually that was for an app called mobilism market. I only gave this info for people who had stock with no market.

I was not aware if it had warez or not because I only used it once. I thought it would make things very easy for people wanting to download things that were hard to find without a stock Market app.

By that I ment things like flash updates, root apps and things people were wanting on a stock vega.

Not everyone has a custom rom and some people needed a good market app on stock vegas.

From the little I used it I found it very good. It was in no way intended for warez.

Edited August 22, 2011 by arnookie

[Guest arnookie]

For people saying it will never happen you may get a supprise.

People said the same about honey also.

Keep that in mind!

: O)

[Guest IanTurner]

For people saying it will never happen you may get a supprise.

People said the same about honey also.

Keep that in mind!

: O)

Bullshit of the lowest order.

None of your posts indicate sufficient knowledge to achieve this.

You started this thread with a vague promise with no solid details and have not posted anything of substance

compared to the developers of Corvus and Vegacomb. Only two topics in the past month.

I'd rate Simontas opinion as more reliable.

Edited August 22, 2011 by IanTurner

[Guest CoWPlagued]

This thread could do with locking, its going nowhere and is only going to start arguments.

Honeycomb was thought to be too difficult to port due to closed source code and icecream sandwich round the corner, not due to differing hardware let alone risc CPU.

Anything is possible and good luck to you, but come back when you have something to show or need help with the development.

[Guest simonta]

This thread could do with locking, its going nowhere and is only going to start arguments.

Honeycomb was thought to be too difficult to port due to closed source code and icecream sandwich round the corner, not due to differing hardware let alone risc CPU.

Anything is possible and good luck to you, but come back when you have something to show or need help with the development.

The mods don't hang out here so it won't get locked.

Arnookie. There are many here who do not understand software, which is as it should be. I do believe it is disingenuous to set false expectations and some might even buy a Vega in hope that they might be able to run Windows because they have no way to understand what's involved. Your comment about HC is a throw away. The technical challenges in getting HC running on a Vega are trivial in comparison to Windows. Many, many orders of magnitude lower (that is in no way a comment on the work of Team Newco for whom I have the utmost respect) and you are not being honest in leading people to believe that they are similar.

Now, if you're planning on running a Windows desktop OS, then VM or emulator is the only possible way. Please do the decent thing and set some correct expectations on what you're planning.

Edited August 23, 2011 by simonta