Why is Modaco's r12 Froyo Rom so smooth?

[Guest deksman2]

Hello everyone...

So... I was pondering on this for a while, and I have to say that out of all the ROM's I tried to this day (currently using Monfro gingerbread ROM), Modaco's r12 is by far the smoothest of them all (in scrolling, pinching, zooming, heck even browser UI rarely flinches when you scroll on image heavy websites).

the performance in 2d UI is practically consistent 60 fps.

No other rom was able to match it (Psyloid's Blue Ginger v5 came VERY close, but he stopped - otherwise I think he would have likely made it just as smooth in the follow up versions).

Is the gpu responsible for rendering the UI in modaco's r12, or is it just a matter of being highly optimized?

I noticed the battery lasted less time on modaco's r12, but nothing that one cannot endure.

So... why isn't this performance duplicable in latest gingerbread roms?

Seriously, virtually all of them lack a 'buttery smooth' experience (while I will agree they are fairly smooth, they aren't AS smooth as r12), and modaco's rom was the only one that gave that.

What the heck was done in r12 to give such a drastic performance boost?

And why wasn't anyone able to duplicate it (apart from Psyloid who came close as I already mentioned)

[Guest Matthew Ferguson]

Hello everyone...

So... I was pondering on this for a while, and I have to say that out of all the ROM's I tried to this day (currently using Monfro gingerbread ROM), Modaco's r12 is by far the smoothest of them all (in scrolling, pinching, zooming, heck even browser UI rarely flinches when you scroll on image heavy websites).

the performance in 2d UI is practically consistent 60 fps.

No other rom was able to match it (Psyloid's Blue Ginger v5 came VERY close, but he stopped - otherwise I think he would have likely made it just as smooth in the follow up versions).

Is the gpu responsible for rendering the UI in modaco's r12, or is it just a matter of being highly optimized?

I noticed the battery lasted less time on modaco's r12, but nothing that one cannot endure.

So... why isn't this performance duplicable in latest gingerbread roms?

Seriously, virtually all of them lack a 'buttery smooth' experience (while I will agree they are fairly smooth, they aren't AS smooth as r12), and modaco's rom was the only one that gave that.

What the heck was done in r12 to give such a drastic performance boost?

And why wasn't anyone able to duplicate it (apart from Psyloid who came close as I already mentioned)

Simple answer: it's not, you're imagining things.

Please stop spamming the forum and making new threads for pointless topics.

[Guest geegeethatsme]

Simple answer: it's not, you're imagining things.

Please stop spamming the forum and making new threads for pointless topics.

That's the idea. Slap down a well-expressed question. Whether it's subjective observation or not, it doesn't deserve that.

If you have a view on deksman2's post that is objective and informed then let's have it. Otherwise, leave the topic to those with inputs of value.

[Guest l2azor]

too bad i dont wanna go back to froyo otherwise would have surely given it a try... i have also read about r12 rom in a couple of posts..lets see if some one has a logical answer... though paul and psyloid are the ones whom word should count on this :)

[Guest Matthew Ferguson]

That's the idea. Slap down a well-expressed question. Whether it's subjective observation or not, it doesn't deserve that.If you have a view on deksman2's post that is objective and informed then let's have it. Otherwise, leave the topic to those with inputs of value.

My answer is logical. I've used all 4 main Froyo ROMs and r12 isn't even the smoothest out of those.

It might be well-expressed but it's not well researched or a good idea. It's subjective, and it WAS pointless to create a new thread. Considering you're slapping down MY reply, it's a bit hypocritical, especially as your post is completely off topic.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Matthew Ferguson

[Guest targetbsp]

Personally, it was the smoothest of the early Froyos for me. Compared to earlier FLB's and Japanese Jellyfish, even though I ran them overclocked. I never did get around to trying Sebs though and I'd moved onto CM7 before the later FLB's and Swedish Spring. So I can't say with certainty that it was the smoothest Froyo, but it was smoother than any I tried. The problem is it was kinda left a little bit underdeveloped and was stopped earlier than other 'competing' roms.

[Guest sambartle]

I think it's just because its built from mainly official kernel and source..

I have left r12 on phones of friends who are less technical and who just want to use it as a phone.. its the most stable, well performing ROM i've used on the blade.

I upgraded mine to CM as I wanted to try new features.. but if I sold it on or it gets pushed down to backup phone status I will go back to Paul's r12..

Edited October 3, 2011 by sambartle

[Guest deksman2]

My answer is logical. I've used all 4 main Froyo ROMs and r12 isn't even the smoothest out of those.

It might be well-expressed but it's not well researched or a good idea. It's subjective, and it WAS pointless to create a new thread. Considering you're slapping down MY reply, it's a bit hypocritical, especially as your post is completely off topic.

First off... in my opinion, I think your first reply to my post was rude and abrasive (of course, that might not be accurate, but the way you structured it, it certainly came off as that), and forgive me but I didn't detect a trace of logic to it.

Allow me to elaborate:

I asked a question which (in my opinion) had solid basis for being asked, (and I do NOT think I initiated in any kind of spamming activity).

Your original reply on the other hand lacked substance and quite frankly, could have been easily interpreted as an 'attack' - or let me rephrase that... 'a useless post' - because you simply said 'no - you are imagining things' without elaborating anything in detail and went on with an assumption that I was 'spamming the forums'.

On what grounds exactly was I spamming the forums?

I barely even post, but when I do, I try to raise questions that could be considered 'relatively relevant'. Isn't that the point of these forums among other things?

To share information, exchange ideas and gain better insight into how the ZTE Blade (and the custom made ROM's we install on it) works?

I have used numerous ROM's to this day, and if I'm not mistaken, I also mentioned that currently I'm using Monfro's ROM (which is a gingerbread one), and asked a question which was based on my observations of UI performance between not just Monfro, but other ROM's (mainly Froyo based ones) I used in the past.

And in my opinion (with the exception of Psyloid's Ginger Blue V5 ROM) the UI performance of current Gingerbread ROM's is not as smooth to what I noticed in Modaco r12 (which seems to give off a more 'fluent feel to it').

Furthermore, that ROM (at least to my knowledge) did NOT employ overclocked CPU frequencies (and I realized some time ago that it really doesn't do anything to boost UI performance - at least, it never did as far as my personal experiences went - although it was good at crashing/restarting the OS due to instabilities and of course draining the battery much faster).

Edited October 3, 2011 by deksman2

[Guest zasten]

More flames and watch this post burn ;-)

FYI I think that the question is valid but since roms are by their nature complex it is unlikely that any answer will be forthcoming. Not surprising that official roms, once optimized, are more stable.

[Guest deksman2]

More flames and watch this post burn ;-)

I do not think my reply to his Matthew's post was an additional flame thrown into the mix (it was not intended as one - though I will also not idly stand by and watch someone post assumptions without merit and derail my thread while not even explaining the reasons as to why they did it). I tried responding in a civil manner and hopefully deliver just how 'unnecessary' the 'tone' used in his original post was - maybe could have used more diplomacy, but i think I was civil enough.

FYI I think that the question is valid but since roms are by their nature complex it is unlikely that any answer will be forthcoming. Not surprising that official roms, once optimized, are more stable.

Point taken, though something is puzzling.

Can't custom ROMS be optimized just as much as the official ones?

I mean, if custom ROM's were 'tailored' to suit the ZTE Blade in the first place and function properly on the device in question, aren't we supposed to see even better performance?

Take Sweedish Spring ROM for example - wasn't it based on an official Froyo release?

People said that it was 'smooth' and all, and yet scrolling through the UI was a painful experience at best (I would say around 10 to 15FPS at any given time - maybe not that low, but bottom line is that it was noticeably choppy) - and I performed all of the necessary wipes like I always do before installing a new ROM.

[Guest Matthew Ferguson]

I do not think my reply to his Matthew's post was an additional flame thrown into the mix (it was not intended as one - though I will also not idly stand by and watch someone post assumptions without merit and derail my thread while not even explaining the reasons as to why they did it). I tried responding in a civil manner and hopefully deliver just how 'unnecessary' the 'tone' used in his original post was - maybe could have used more diplomacy, but i think I was civil enough.

Point taken, though something is puzzling.

Can't custom ROMS be optimized just as much as the official ones?

I mean, if custom ROM's were 'tailored' to suit the ZTE Blade in the first place and function properly on the device in question, aren't we supposed to see even better performance?

Take Sweedish Spring ROM for example - wasn't it based on an official Froyo release?

People said that it was 'smooth' and all, and yet scrolling through the UI was a painful experience at best (I would say around 10 to 15FPS at any given time - maybe not that low, but bottom line is that it was noticeably choppy) - and I performed all of the necessary wipes like I always do before installing a new ROM.

Modaco r12 was based on a leaked beta, just like GSF is (however a much, MUCH older one since replaced by the Triple Two Project's base). Also, Psyloid's Blue Ginger R5 is using the exact same ROM base as GSF, so if you're arguing it's smoother, it's clearly just you, unless you haven't bothered to try GSF, which proves your lack of logic.

Your reply wasn't completely civil and could be counted as a flame. You're spamming because I'm sure if r12 was so smooth as you seem to think it is, more people would've noticed.

[Guest t0mm13b]

Not surprising that official roms, once optimized, are more stable.

That's not true... :)

For starters, define 'official roms' or even better, define 'stable'? :)

Are we talking about manufactured roms that came with handsets on release by factory prior to reaching the destination of the mobile providers, or are we talking about mobile provider's roms.

This is a double-edged sword here, ALL roms come from the possible sources namely Google's AOSP, or CodeAurora's or even CyanogenMod.

Any ROMs can be optimized easily but the tricky aspect is finding out which configuration option to use to "tweak" it.

Some are undocumented, some others are visibly there but not activated at build time due to maybe "issues", others are hacked in.

Also, the important factor that addresses the look and feel, speed, optimization of ROM is down to the kernel as well. :)

Edit: Forgot to mention, boot time scripts, a tweak here and there, enabling certain things such as hardware acceleration/stagefright etc. Also, there's APKs that may be deodexed, some odexed.... as you can see the factors vary and mileage will vary thus :) In the case of mobile provider's ROM's - these are notorious for bundling in crap-ware which can impede performance etc...

Another thing to mention also, if bugs are found in Google's AOSP that went unnoticed, the chances of that being propagated to CodeAurora/CyanogenMod is pretty high, unless someone in that CodeAurora/CyanogenMod spotted it and put in a fix there and then.

Edited October 3, 2011 by t0mm13b

[Guest zasten]

My simple definition of stable... "All hardware working and no force closes"

By "offical" rom I meant manufacturer roms. These are generally stable on release and the manufacturers usually have the resources to put out a stable quality rom. However that said one or two updates are often released after the fact.

The small tweaks that are provided after an official release are welcome (case in point root access) although in many cases too much fiddling actually reduces stability. Cooked roms produced by individuals are often works in progress, or in the oven a little too long, but many good cooks eventually produce a great piece of work it just takes a while.

Open source community roms will always struggle to get the device drivers right, the same problem that Linux suffers from. Statistically official roms are much more stable than anything else. But that does not mean people should stop trying to improve them.

If there is a bug in ASOP it usually get corrected pretty quickly.

[Guest t0mm13b]

My simple definition of stable... "All hardware working and no force closes"

By "offical" rom I meant manufacturer roms. These are generally stable on release and the manufacturers usually have the resources to put out a stable quality rom. However that said one or two updates are often released after the fact.

The small tweaks that are provided after an official release are welcome (case in point root access) although in many cases too much fiddling actually reduces stability. Cooked roms produced by individuals are often works in progress, or in the oven a little too long, but many good cooks eventually produce a great piece of work it just takes a while.

Open source community roms will always struggle to get the device drivers right, the same problem that Linux suffers from. Statistically official roms are much more stable than anything else. But that does not mean people should stop trying to improve them.

If there is a bug in ASOP it usually get corrected pretty quickly.

That's true, yes, it boils down to one fundamental thing - device drivers in the kernel that can be exploited by the ROM itself, all too often, handset manufacturers are not exactly 100% when it comes to getting the device driver to work - case in point, Blade and the camera driver, proximity sensor, touchscreen variants (even newer blades apparently has a multi-touchscreen - more than two finger touch or so I hear from irc, that is not in the kernel even as of now AFAIK - could be wrong here...) :)

I have Galaxy 5 here, with "official" rom from Samsung, and the battery dies after one day... is it the rom, is it the kernel, is it the hardware...

Also, look at batches of handsets, one batch could have a faulty component...

I would not raise the subject matter about root access into this debate, for the simple reason, that is the end user responsibility, not the ROM maker or manufacturer.

CM7 is the only one that I know of that has Superuser built in and root access thus. :)

To be honest - there's too many variables to nail down. One handset could be one person's trash, could be another person's delight, likewise, applies to kernel, device drivers, roms.... and so on... :D

Edited October 3, 2011 by t0mm13b

[Guest deksman2]

Modaco r12 was based on a leaked beta, just like GSF is (however a much, MUCH older one since replaced by the Triple Two Project's base). Also, Psyloid's Blue Ginger R5 is using the exact same ROM base as GSF, so if you're arguing it's smoother, it's clearly just you, unless you haven't bothered to try GSF, which proves your lack of logic.

Your reply wasn't completely civil and could be counted as a flame. You're spamming because I'm sure if r12 was so smooth as you seem to think it is, more people would've noticed.

In YOUR opinion.

As you can see, I disagree with your perception of things, therefore please stop assuming that your opinion is shared by everyone on the forums or that people hadn't noticed that Modaco r12 was as smooth as I said (because, quite frankly, I don't think you have evidence for making that claim - also, just because they hadn't necessarily mentioned it doesn't mean they hadn't noticed - lots of people were also stating that Sweedish Spring ROM was 'smooth' and it turned out it was anything but that).

Furthermore, I checked over my reply to your post and I can say it was quite civil... not inflammatory - unless you find it insulting when someone is analyzing your post and points out aspects of it in order to create a counter argument after you seemingly attacked this entire thread and accused me that I was spamming the forums by posting what was (in my opinion) a legitimate question (as others in this very thread also seem to think). You on the other hand think it's spamming simply because you haven't noticed that others expressed a similar point of view?

It's an Android OS and ZTE Blade related question. This particular section for the forum serves for exactly that... or hadn't you noticed?

Spamming would probably entail posting links to various promotions or PPC offers, or stating things that have 0 connection to ZTE Blade and the Android OS.

Also, have you seen me 'promoting' Modaco's r12 rom by any chance? I don't think so... because I was only interested in pointing out difference in performances between it and newest ROMS.

FYI, I tried and used GSF for some time in various versions (actually I switched over to Monfro just recently). While I will agree that the UI is smooth (as I also noted in my original post of this thread for most recent Gingerbread custom ROM's), I was stating that to me, they are not quite as smooth as r12's ROM (or in some cases Psyloid's Ginger Blue V5 - which could also mean that Psyloid might have optimized his ROM better than what I observed on GSF - we've seen this before - that different roms, even though based on the same leak performed differently - or are you going to tell me that this is not the case?). The browser for example was the most evident place where r12 smoothness shone because in image heavy websites it was still scrolling without effort, while current gingerbreads (even with the latest kernel) do show signs of slower FPS when scrolling through image heavy websites.

r12's ROM gave off an impression as if it was using a GPU accelerated UI... GSF's, Monfro, CAE and the Blade Mix on the other hand, while indeed smooth, do not show as smooth behavior.

I wouldn't be posting this thread if I hadn't noticed it in the first place.

P.S. I'm done talking about this specific aspect as it's derailing the thread. As someone who created this thread, I would ask you to either continue participating in a manner that can contribute (one relevant to what I originally posted), or I kindly ask you to leave if the thread isn't to your liking.

Edited October 3, 2011 by deksman2

[Guest wbaw]

I think it's just because its built from mainly official kernel and source..

No it isn't. It uses Pauls custom compiled kernel, I think he 'forgot' to release the source code for it.

Did you post a rom in this thread, wth is it doing in this section of the forum? Should change the name of this section from 'ROMs & ROM customisation' to 'KANGS & Pointless Arguments'

Edited October 3, 2011 by wbaw

[Guest Matthew Ferguson]

In YOUR opinion.

As you can see, I disagree with your perception of things, therefore please stop assuming that your opinion is shared by everyone on the forums or that people hadn't noticed that Modaco r12 was as smooth as I said (because, quite frankly, I don't think you have evidence for making that claim - also, just because they hadn't necessarily mentioned it doesn't mean they hadn't noticed - lots of people were also stating that Sweedish Spring ROM was 'smooth' and it turned out it was anything but that).

Furthermore, I checked over my reply to your post and I can say it was quite civil... not inflammatory - unless you find it insulting when someone is analyzing your post and points out aspects of it in order to create a counter argument after you seemingly attacked this entire thread and accused me that I was spamming the forums by posting what was (in my opinion) a legitimate question (as others in this very thread also seem to think). You on the other hand think it's spamming simply because you haven't noticed that others expressed a similar point of view?

It's an Android OS and ZTE Blade related question. This particular section for the forum serves for exactly that... or hadn't you noticed?

Spamming would probably entail posting links to various promotions or PPC offers, or stating things that have 0 connection to ZTE Blade and the Android OS.

Also, have you seen me 'promoting' Modaco's r12 rom by any chance? I don't think so... because I was only interested in pointing out difference in performances between it and newest ROMS.

FYI, I tried and used GSF for some time in various versions (actually I switched over to Monfro just recently). While I will agree that the UI is smooth (as I also noted in my original post of this thread for most recent Gingerbread custom ROM's), I was stating that to me, they are not quite as smooth as r12's ROM (or in some cases Psyloid's Ginger Blue V5 - which could also mean that Psyloid might have optimized his ROM better than what I observed on GSF - we've seen this before - that different roms, even though based on the same leak performed differently - or are you going to tell me that this is not the case?). The browser for example was the most evident place where r12 smoothness shone because in image heavy websites it was still scrolling without effort, while current gingerbreads (even with the latest kernel) do show signs of slower FPS when scrolling through image heavy websites.

r12's ROM gave off an impression as if it was using a GPU accelerated UI... GSF's, Monfro, CAE and the Blade Mix on the other hand, while indeed smooth, do not show as smooth behavior.

I wouldn't be posting this thread if I hadn't noticed it in the first place.

P.S. I'm done talking about this specific aspect as it's derailing the thread. As someone who created this thread, I would ask you to either continue participating in a manner that can contribute (one relevant to what I originally posted), or I kindly ask you to leave if the thread isn't to your liking.

^clearly provocative and a flame war. You've misunderstood me. Psyloid's ROM was built from GSF, not directly from the leak.

[Guest deksman2]

Provocative and a flame war?

Wow, and lol... as I said before, I am done wasting my time commenting on that as it's quite frankly, pointless.

I already told you, if you don't find this discussion of interest, then kindly leave or at least stop posting things that aren't relevant to it.

Psyloid's ROM may have been built from GSF, but in my opinion (and no offence to wbaw) it appeared slightly smoother than what I experienced with the latter at version b19. b21 approached Psyloid's Blue Ginger V5 when it came to browser scrolling on image heavy websites, but the latter seemed to have an easier time with them (from what I noticed).

b26 was similar to b21 performance-wise (I hadn't noticed any discernible differences between the ROM versions)

I hadn't tried b27, so I cannot comment on it, but for now I don't have any incentive to switch from Monfro (which happens to use the latest burstlam kernel and I can tell you that it's UI, pinching, zooming, scrolling and browser performance are not exactly on par with what Modaco r12 had - and the entire point of the thread was to see what exactly was done to r12 that made its UI so smooth and if a same/similar thing can be done to latest Gingerbread ROMS).