Numeric shortcuts in menus ?

[Guest The PocketTV Team]

The Smartphone OS automatically implements numeric shortcuts for menus, i.e. when you open a menu, pressing 1 selects the first item, 2 selects the second item etc. You don't have to use the D-pad to navigate menus.

Do you prefer seeing the numeric shortcuts (i.e. numbers shown in the menus) or do you prefer not seeing them (harder to determine what number to press for some items, as you need to count them) ?

MS recommends *not* showing the numerical shortcuts - in fact it is a logo-requirement.

We prefer to see numerical shortcuts in menus (e.g. a-la-PocketTV).

What do you prefer ?

[Guest awarner [MVP]]

I voted yes but I suppose you have to bow to MS if you want it certified :)

[Guest The PocketTV Team]

I voted yes but I suppose you have to bow to MS if you want it certified :)

Yes, but we think that the logo-certification, as it stands, is bad and will no do what it is supposed to do, i.e. encourage developers to make good, consistent, innovative mobile applications that will work well on the Smartphone and not cause any problem with the device.

As it is, logo certification does not do that. It imposes un-justified restrictions to developers, it is missing many necessary requirements to guarantee or recommendations to guarantee that applications will run well and not interract negatively with the device and with other applications, and it is priced in a way that *strongly discourages* developers from:

- releasing new versions and bug fixes

- internationalizing their application

So we think logo-certification, as it is know, should be boycotted by developers until MS fixes it (on the technical side, on the pricing side, and on the philosophical side - i.e. what is is supposed to achieve, and how).

Regarding this particular point (numerical shortcuts in menus), think that this requirement is one of many we think needs to be changed in the Smartphone 2002 logo-requirement document.

When we asked MS why they put this requirement, Microsoft told us:

We are *thinking* that *maybe* in *future* versions of Smartphone, the OS will add the numerical shortcuts in the menu, so if you put your own, they would appear twice, it would not look good.

Our answers to Microsoft were:

Yes, but you mean in future versions of Smartphone, i.e. *not* in Smartphone 2002 (which is frozen). So why put that in the Smartphone 2002 logo-requirement documents, then ? This requirement belongs *only* to the Smartphone version where the OS *does* show the numbers in the menus (if there is such a Smartphone version, some day).

Is that because you don't want third party apps to be easier to use than built-in MS apps (which do not have the numerical short-cuts) ?

Is that because you think it would look inconsistent if some apps have the numerical shortcuts in the menus, and some don't ?

Do you think that a small inconsistency like that justify forcing all developers to reduce the useability of their applications ?

[Guest crafty]

I think that the menus look "cleaner" without numeric shortcuts. Besides when i'm browsing through menus i tend to have my thumb on the D-pad and it's generally quicker to use that than move to the keypad.

[Guest The PocketTV Team]

I think that the menus look "cleaner" without numeric shortcuts.  Besides when i'm browsing through menus i tend to have my thumb on the D-pad and it's generally quicker to use that than move to the keypad.

When using numerical shortcuts, you don't have to put your finger on the D-pad. You can jump directly from the menu softkey to the number! And you don't have to look at the display to do that...

I agree that in same cases menus look "cluttered" with the numerical shortcuts, but if you do it right, the menu remain very clean, e.g.:

By the way, you certainely noticed that there are numbers in the Home Programs list. When we made that remark to MS, they told us:

Ah, oh, yes, but you see, this is not a menu, this is a list. We think lists like this one *should* show the numerical shortcuts, but menus should not.

This is a very lame justification... There is very little difference between a list like that and a menu, in terms of functions and navigation. This list looks just like a full-screen menu to me.

Another thing that MS forbids in their logo-requirements is the ellipsis (i.e. "..." like in "More...") that usually indicates that another dialog is associated with that choice.

We told MS that the "More..." item in the Programs lists (and in the Settings lists too) is an allipsis, and that it is in fact convenient because it ad some information regarding what will come next.

They said again: Ah, oh, yes, but you see, this is not a menu, this is a list. We think lists like this one *should* show ellipsis, but menus should not.

With guys that smart at MS, how can you expect Smartphone to succeed as a commercial product ? :)

[Guest midnight]

i simply dont think i use/nor will i ever use numeric shortcuts in menus, and i do agree, i think that adding numbers does clutter up the menus slightly.

I kind of also agree with MS on the 'More...' in Menus, i can see it usefull in lists, which can take up several pages, but i dont see a reason to have that many items in a menu. Of course if you do want to argue with MS on this point then why does 'Run...' exist in the Start Menu of windows :)

Because this is essentially a phone, and they want to hit the consumer market, the simpler the better, and the less menu items the better for that very reason, of course, if ms had thought ahead, the options to have numbered menu items could have been a built in user preference (maybe this is planned for ozone and thats why they dont want you to do it? cos with two sets of numbers in the menus it would look even more cluttered)

[Guest The PocketTV Team]

> i simply dont think i use/nor will i ever use numeric shortcuts in menus

Maybe you did not know they existed ? :)

I personally find them useful to rapidely get to a command that I use often in an app that I use often.

> and i do agree, i think that adding numbers does clutter up the menus slightly.

Yes, slightly, but not significantly, if done properly.

But then numbers also clutters up the Home Program menu slightly, yet you are probably happy to see the numerical shortcuts on the screen in that case ?

> I kind of also agree with MS on the 'More...' in Menus, i can see it usefull in lists, which can take up several pages, but i dont see a reason to have that many items in a menu.

A menu command can bring a dialog (e.g. "Properties" or "Media Info") or it can perform a command immediately (e.g. "Exit"), or it can set a check box (e.g. "Repeat"). They all look the same. At least the ellipsis was providing a hint on what the command does.

But I have no real strong feeling on the ellipsis. Getting rid of it does not bother me as much as not having the numerical shortcuts in menus, on a platforms where most of the keys are on a numerical keypad, with no faster way to navigate in the menu other than numerical keys. Yes, you can use the cursor, but that's slower and require more keys to press.

> Of course if you do want to argue with MS on this point then why does 'Run...' exist in the Start Menu of windows :(

Because that's the only way to start regedit :D

> Because this is essentially a phone, and they want to hit the consumer market, the simpler the better

I agree, but on the other hand they only target people who do have a PS running windows...

If MS had *really* wanted to make the UI look really simple, they would have forced *ALL* menus to display as fullscreen lists (i.e. like "Home Programs" which is no different from the Start menu), with the two soft buttons always mapped as "Select" and "Cancel". That would have made the UI look simple (and yet with the same functionnality has it currently has. And I would have like that, personally.

> and the less menu items the better for that very reason, of course, if ms had thought ahead, the options to have numbered menu items could have been a built in user preference (maybe this is planned for ozone and thats why they dont want you to do it? cos with two sets of numbers in the menus it would look even more cluttered)

Yes, I totally agree with what you say, but I'm talking *only* about apps running on Smartphone 2002.

When Smartphone Ozone comes out, if it has such an option, then it will be easy for developers to remove numerical shortcuts from their menu in the Smartphone 2002 version of their apps.

[Guest midnight]

> Maybe you did not know they existed ?

Err, I aint no newbie, of course i knew they existsed, i'm just saying that I am never in that much iof a rush to save 1/2 a second, and as mentioned, my thumb is already on the keypad, so really, it aint that much quicker if you take your thumb off and press a different key. Also, if its a menu with a sub menu then pressing the numeric version of the menu item causes the dreaded 'thunk' sound.

> But then numbers also clutters up the Home Program menu slightly, yet you are probably happy to see the numerical shortcuts on the screen in that case ?

Nope, dont mind at all, these lists are full screen width, menu's are not.

Anyway, whatever, you asked for a poll, not a debate, a poll is for peoples personal opinions, and those are mine, and so in a poll you shouldnt argue with my comments. :)

[Guest The PocketTV Team]

> Also, if its a menu with a sub menu then pressing the numeric version of the menu item causes the dreaded 'thunk' sound.

Yes, that's a bug, MS is aware of it and they'll fix it...

> Nope, dont mind at all, these lists are full screen width, menu's are not.

Exactly... that's what I said in my previous post. I totally agree with you that the UI of the Smartphone should be *very* simple because it's targetted to be a consumer product.

So I think all menus should have been showed as fullscreen lists, just like the "Start Menu" (now called Home Programs).

> Anyway, whatever, you asked for a poll, not a debate

The point of this poll was to raise a debate!

I am not arguing your opinions, in fact I quite agree with you that the UI of a phone should be *very* simple, consistent and efficient.

What I'm aguing are MS's UI choices and logo-requirements in that matter.

I don't think that the current position of MS regarding how menus should look like helps in having a simple, consistent and efficient UI on the Smartphone.

[Guest midnight]

well, i think ms's logo requirements are bull anyway :)

all that hassle (and money) just for an ms logo and for it to be added to their catalog, big deal.

[Guest nickcornaglia]

I, coming from PPC land before using the smartphone, originally thought the numbers were a great idea and thought I would get used to using them over time.

I think my years of PocketPC use has imbedded into my brain to just scroll through and select.

After all, I can use the directional pad and action key without looking, where I cant really choose numbers without looking at the keypad.