Guest jaknife2000 Posted March 16, 2003 Report Posted March 16, 2003 I have a few questions for anyone from any of the software companies that are listening. 1. Why should we pay for uncertified software ? (As they haven't payed for a certificate) 2. If i do buy uncertified software, should the company provide details on how to uncertify the phone ? 3. If Orange / Microsoft do close the decertify loophole, should i not be entitiled to get my money back ? as i can't run it anymore ? Or a free upgrade to a certified version ? Just wondered what would happen really if they do close the certification issue, will we get stuck with software we have payed for but cannot run ?
Guest samdb74 Posted March 16, 2003 Report Posted March 16, 2003 wonderd about this myself - would say one thing, it is Orange who app lock the phone, not MS, AFAIK
Guest Emad Posted March 16, 2003 Report Posted March 16, 2003 1. You are giving money for services (their time). 2. The company should provide a warning that it will only work on uncertified phones 3. The second should be the case if the loophole is closed. As it is, it won't be - but lets face it, smartphone software is only a max of £10 a pop anyway and uncertified developers are the grassroots ones you'd want to help..
Guest jaknife2000 Posted March 16, 2003 Report Posted March 16, 2003 Another question i guess we should add to this is, as Orange / MS see the decertification as a loop hole, surely selling uncertified software glorifies the whole unlocked phone process ? Shouldn't Orange be stopping these people selling the software ? I am not saying all uncertified software should be free, i am willing to pay for good software like the next man, hell there is some excellent software written by people from this very forum, which i would gladly buy, but i just don't see the point in buying it, if it will be locked out from usage with possibly the next update. Prehaps Paul [MVP] should possibly have a poll on this, should we pay for uncertified software ? Another question i guess would be, as its Orange like you kindly said that lock the certification, does this mean then, that on other networks, when they finally release the handset or an equivalent, that it will NOT be locked ? I see a mass migration happening here, with everyone leaving Orange to go to O2, or T-mobile, just so that they can use there de-cert software. Hmmm, let me think keep my decent phone, but only run certified software, which to be fare is good, but there is better and free out there, or switch SP and run whatever i like ? I know what i would choose. Orange DONT do it. Thats all i can say.
Guest Vector Posted March 16, 2003 Report Posted March 16, 2003 I think it is OK to pay £3 or something like that for an unsigned app because the developer will have put alot of work into making it. But i think jaknifes point about giving decert instructions with the app would be good.
Guest Syvwlch Posted March 16, 2003 Report Posted March 16, 2003 i think jaknifes point about giving decert instructions with the app would be good. Weeeellll... Good in sentiment, but imagine having to support all the users who can't get it to work... without a forum like MoDaCo to provide customer service. If you give instructions for a process, which is part of getting your app to work, you need to support it.
Guest muude Posted March 16, 2003 Report Posted March 16, 2003 When you think of paying for unsigned software, you have to, like Emad said, think of how much time the developer has put into it. By paing him, we are giving him and other developers to make more software. Even though they haven't paid to get it certed, they have spent (a lot of) time making the software.
Guest PsychoDave Posted March 16, 2003 Report Posted March 16, 2003 Have to agree with you Muude. My phone would have been a completly different beast if it hadn't been for the developers here and in the community. Task manager and smart explorer alone are worth paying for. These guys aren't doing it for the cash imho they do it because they want this phone to be better than orange are allowing it to be. I am very happy that they have and hope they continue to develop for our platform. If O do find a way around our decert then I probably won't install it. Can u imagine life without Gnuboy? ;) End of bletherin :)
Guest DJHope Posted March 16, 2003 Report Posted March 16, 2003 Shouldn't Orange be stopping these people selling the software ? Dont see how orange would be able to do that, their are plently of legitimately uncertified phones about in the name of tanger and many more to come. Asking people to pay for software they have legitimately written themselves certified or uncertified is a method of supporting future platforms and very much current development ones, orange dont have exclusivity on smartphone, its almost like if dell tried to stop everyone from selling software not branded by them, its a ridiculious idea. Besides what law would they use exactly to stop people selling software that is 100% their own work, erm copyright no hang on that one wouldnt work even the DMCA isnt f**ked up enough to be used in this case. Unfortunately for orange their arnt any security bills yet that may destory what little free speech we have left! DJ Hope
Guest Monolithix [MVP] Posted March 16, 2003 Report Posted March 16, 2003 Bear in mind there ~will~ be other SmartPhone based phones coming out, and the operators decide whether or not to activate the certification lock. All software devlopers are really obliged to do is provide specific instuctions on which phones their software is compatible with. IMHO i believe Orange will blanket lock all 2.5G SmartPhone phones, and as soon as SmartPhone OS mkII is released on 3G phones it'll be removed. Orange aren't stupid, they know the chaos that they'll be subjected to if they remove certification on all other SP mobiles....
Guest Gorskar Posted March 16, 2003 Report Posted March 16, 2003 I heard somewhere (possibly on this forum) that the t-mobile tanager will not have the certification lock enabled. What would be the orange response to this then? ... And whats to stop you putting t-mobile updates/software on your orange phone also? Certification requirements are doomed to fail. The only reason that orange have gotten away with it for so long is the fact that they are the only ones selling a sp2002 phone as yet.
Guest frijj2k Posted March 17, 2003 Report Posted March 17, 2003 I cant see how un-cert software that you may buy can be locked out. Sure... Orange may provide an update which stops you running de-cert software but hey.... We got several updates of the firmware that we can revert to...... (DK and current UK) Not to mention MigSofts 3rd party firmware. And as said... Other MS Smartphone OS enabled phones are bound to not have this stupid cert requirement anyway. And as long as we can read and write the firmware, un-locked phones are here to stay! ;-) Dave
Guest awarner [MVP] Posted March 17, 2003 Report Posted March 17, 2003 What about the possibility of in future using say a T mobile update instead of Orange? As long as you have the Sim unlocked would it be possible?
Guest Richie M Posted March 17, 2003 Report Posted March 17, 2003 What about the possibility of in future using say a T mobile update instead of Orange? As long as you have the Sim unlocked would it be possible? Cant see why not. Does the Update progs look at the Sim? Only problem i think this would create is overriding Oranges settings on the phone ie GPRS, SMS Center & Answer Phone :)
Guest yatpeak Posted March 17, 2003 Report Posted March 17, 2003 I think thatif people sell an uncertified program, and give warnings that the loophole could be closed by Orange, they should be able to sell the software. Wyatt
Guest benjymous Posted March 17, 2003 Report Posted March 17, 2003 I'll answer these from the point of view of someone who develops free software in their spare time (and may possibly consider shareware as an option) 1. Why should we pay for uncertified software ? (As they haven't payed for a certificate)You're paying people for the time they've spent in creating the application. Just because they haven't payed Orange for a certificate, doesn't mean they just clicked their fingers one morning and had an app ready for you to install. Remember that a lot of stuff is developed by indivoduals doing it as a hobby, not some huge money grabbing corporation looking to make a quick buck. 2. If i do buy uncertified software, should the company provide details on how to uncertify the phone ? I'd say giving a link to instructions here should be enough. Any more and the developers will end up spending more time replying to idiotic emails from people who can't read the instructions properly (believe me, I've run FAQs in the past, and got bombarded with stupid questions that were already answered in the FAQ if people could be bothered to read it first) 3. If Orange / Microsoft do close the decertify loophole, should i not be entitiled to get my money back ? as i can't run it anymore ? Or a free upgrade to a certified version ?If you buy a game that runs on Win98, then upgrade your computer to WinXP and find it no longer works (though it doesn't claim to work on WinXP on the box), would you expect a full refund on the game? The game developer may release a patch, but they'd be under no obligation to do so Likewise, you know what you're getting when you pay for an unsigned app, so you wouldn't have much of a reason to expect a free signed version, or a refund (of course it'd be down to the developer as to what path they'd take in this situation) Just wondered what would happen really if they do close the certification issue, will we get stuck with software we have payed for but cannot run ? Sadly that seems like it could be a distinct possibility, but remember, there's no way Orange or Microsoft can force you to update your phone, so if a new update breaks uncerted apps, then just don't install it (and I'm sure people would work a way around any new cert issues if and when they arrise)
Guest Honest John Posted March 17, 2003 Report Posted March 17, 2003 Dead simple and straight forward. If someone has developed a piece if software and wants to sell it, this is perfectly ok as long as it is clearly identified as being un-certified and sold on that basis. If you don't want to buy it, then you don't need to. In the event of an update, then good business practice would be for the writer to make avaiable any mods either free of charge if it's simple or at a reduced rate to existing customers. The price for software? Whatever the market deems it is worth. Personally, good luck to them all, for if it wasn't for them, the SPV would not develop anywhere near as quickly.
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