Guest chucky.egg Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 So I take that as a "No, I can't prove you are not the Creator". Fair enough, I didn't expect you to be able to. I assure you I am thinking carefully, but are you? "Faith" is about Trust and Belief (as I understand it). You don't need proof of God's existence because your belief in Him/It is strong enough to allow you to just accept that he exists. "Faith" therefore is based on forming a strong enough belief in something (God in this case) that you accept something without question. So if you are not questioning your belief in God are you thinking? Or are you merely repeating the "learning" that your religion and it's leaders want to perpetuate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FrankyG Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 So I take that as a "No, I can't prove you are not the Creator". Fair enough, I didn't expect you to be able to. I assure you I am thinking carefully, but are you? "Faith" is about Trust and Belief (as I understand it). You don't need proof of God's existence because your belief in Him/It is strong enough to allow you to just accept that he exists. "Faith" therefore is based on forming a strong enough belief in something (God in this case) that you accept something without question. So if you are not questioning your belief in God are you thinking? Or are you merely repeating the "learning" that your religion and it's leaders want to perpetuate? You definition of faith is not correct, from a Biblical viewpoint. Heb 4:12- 'Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.' Faith definitely is NOT about accepting something without question. It's up to each individual to decide whether what he sees around about him forms 'evidence' that there must be a creator, similar to the acknowledging that the existence of a painting(which is the evidence) points to the existence of a painter. The Book of Hebrews puts it quite simply Heb 3:4 'Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God.' If a person can reasonably conclude that a house MUST have had an intelligent designer, how much more so must have the phenomenally more complex but precise universe had an intelligent designer?! Or perhaps if you gathered together all the individual components of a house, the sand, water, concrete, timber, electrical wiring, switches, plumbing systems, valves,....(how big should this list be)..took all these and just waited to see if a house would eventually appear...will a house just 'come to be'? A reasoning mind must say no. Design requires a designer. Even a badly designed object, one which is damaged, wrecked and not serving it's purpose--still had a designer. The Bible claims to be from the Creator, it itself claims to be evidence of a creator. If it is, then it should provide proof, evidence, to support that claim. The truth is, most people, including most Christians haven't bothered to thoroughly check whether this is indeed the case. The Bible though does present various lines of evidence for the reader to examine and come to a conclusion on whether it's claim to be inspired of God is true. But without studying the Bible, one really can't claim to have examined to evidence. What kind of a juror would a person be if he refused to examine the evidence!? Perhaps one who is prejudiced, or worse, one who is not really interested in 'TRUTH'. Fine, but don't jump on the evolution bandwagon just because it's easier to live with, and it conveniently absolves a person of accountability. I didn't mean to go on, but there you go ^_^ Oh , in answer to the original question; Ez 18:4 'The soul that is sinning—it itself will die' Yes, the Bible does NOT teach that the soul is immortal... So I won't be going anywhere, no part of me, will be going anywhere if I kick it tonight :!: Cheers :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c0ntrite Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Hmmm... I never said I was the "Creator" you see some people see things "as they want to" and not see the reality because its not what they want... but then again reality "NEVER" changes no matter what... either we believe or not... I'm not forcing anyone to believe since God has given you freewill to choose... I opened this topic up for those who are interested and not to argue about God... because there is no need to argue for there is only one reality... that is that he exists and there is nothing we can do about it... God Bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spacemonkey Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 First, I think this thread was always going to turn into a philosophical/theological debate, what you wanted initially is kinda besides the point as long as no one gets personal or flamey about it. Personally I don't believe in anything, but I'm always interested in trying to understand what/why other people believe the things they do. ... you see some people see things "as they want to" and not see the reality because its not what they want... but then again reality "NEVER" changes no matter what... Now, this is interesting though... The idea that there is one genuine reality that never changes, but some people see things as they want... I would say that a belief I have is that there is 1 true reality out there, but I would say that it's impossible for any of us to 100% see that true reality. Everything we perceive is filtered by our personal experience and beliefs. For example, when I see a plant on the other side of the room, I could describe this plant to you in detail down to describing it's texture, how the leaves would behave if I tore them etc. Even if I had never been near that specific plant ever before. There is a good chance I'd be right, but the actual true reality of that plant could really be anything. My "reality" is based on my memories and experience of other plants in the past. Even on something as simple as this any 2 different people could have wildly differing views as to what the true nature of this plant was. So to relate this back to the topic at hand, my perception of reality is based on the TRUE reality, but filtered through my knowledge and experience I perceive that there is no divine creator and in my perception everything lines up logically. For you you view the same TRUE reality, but filtered through your knowledge and experience you perceive that there IS a divine creator and that everything lines up logically behind that. Making analogies to paintings and other overly simplistic examples doesn't really help, what would help "non believers" would be you expressing how/why your perception of TRUE reality means the things it does to you. Telling me I'm wrong and that it's obvious will never help because I could just as easily say the same back to you and I'm not really interested in that kind of discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chucky.egg Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Crikey spacemonkey! That's pretty much what I was thinking, but lost interest in trying to explain my views before I got there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Samsonite Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Superb post, spacemonkey! I've been reading this thread since it started but havent really wanted to get stuck in - i can get right into this sort of subject matter but have deliberately avoided posting an opinion... Your standpoint is respectful and succint and i could never have put as complete a viewpoint in that space. see - even this round of applause has rambled on!! nice one!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c0ntrite Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 spacemonkey, hmmmm... which would you prefer? Someone telling you the truth... that hurts... or someone telling you a lie that doesnt hurt... For me I tell people the truth about God... because they NEED to know the truth... even though it hurts... as a true Christian it is my duty and obligation to tell the truth... nothing more... nothing less... no sugar coating... but then again... most of us won't accept the truth because they are more comfortable with their belief... even most Christians are deceived by thinking that it is easy to go to heaven... they hold on to that believe because it is easier... but when Judgment Day comes... many will be in for a surprise... I just hope that you would put this reality into consideration... because this is not for my own good... but yours... what profit is it for me if you believe me or not? Please set aside your own pride and comfort zone... and face reality... read the Bible and follow Jesus' teachings... then you will experience this reality... that God indeed exists... don't just read... do what the Bible says... may God Bless you all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drblow Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 What an interesting thread this has turned out to be! :D Like spacemonkey, I don't claim to believe in anything really, certainly not an organised religion of any kind. But I am always fascinated by other people's beliefs. I like the Doulgas Adams view of the existance of God, from the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, in relation to the Babel Fish (the small fish that translates every language by sticking it in your ear :D ). The argument goes something like this ... MAN : "Lord, why can't you give us proof that you exist?" GOD : "I can't prove that I exist, because proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing." MAN : "Ah, but the Babel Fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It proves you exist, therefore you don't!" GOD : "Oh dear, I hadn't thought of that!" ... and God promptly vanishes in a puff of logic! :lol: (for any of you who don't get this joke coz you have never read the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, go out to your local bookstore tomorrow & buy the entire series - you won't regret it! :D ) Now, silly as that argument is, I honestly believe that between the lines there lies the basic problems of the whole debate. Religious people will never accept that God does not exist, because the whole religion idea is based on faith. Which is a pretty good hook for the church, you gotta admit! :D People who are generally sceptical will never accept any idea of a God without scientific evidence - which of course will never happen because it is impossible to prove. It's an ideal catch 22 situation! & of course, thats the way it has to be. My distrust of religion generally comes mostly from the exlusivity they all seem to apply to the idea of the after life. Most religions will say that even people who have lived exemplary lives, but belong to another religion, will not be allowed into heaven. Now, that seem drastically unfair to me! :D But the person themselves, doesn't care about what other religions think, they just think they will go to their God, in their Heaven. Now, that idea always suggests to me that if there really is an after life, then it MUST be multi-layered. There MUST be several different heavens. Although every religion would argue against that, I cannot see any other logical conclusion. A muslim will not for a second consider that they are going anywhere else buy to heaven with Allah, while similarly a christian will not consider anything but going to Heaven with God. Neither of those people can be considered wrong in their belief, coz thats what it's all about ... BELIEF! So, if there are several different heavens available, then to answer the original question of wher will I go if I die tonight ... I'll be going into outer space man! Where my spirit will go surfing sun-flares with Jimi Hendrix, and we''ll get stoned on some crazy alien water pipes, and get pleasured by exotic alien belly dancers with 3 breasts!! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mike-oh Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Most religions will say that even people who have lived exemplary lives, but belong to another religion, will not be allowed into heaven. Now, that seem drastically unfair to me! Nail right on the head there. How can any God banish/punish the truley good, just because they happen not to believe in God (Allah, or different higher being)? If that is the case with God, then it is a not a God i wish to believe in/worship i'm afraid. Anyone who thinks their religion is the only true or "correct" one is naive, all the other religions are thinking that too!?! The "i'm right and everyone else is wrong" attitude is INCREDIBLY narrow minded and one of the reasons why the world is in the state it's in today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c0ntrite Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 unfair? we are ALL sinners... no one is good except God alone... do you want me to prove it? ok here goes... have you ever stolen anything no matter how small in your WHOLE life... if you have... well... that makes you a THIEF (remember downloading ILLEGAL mp3s). Have you ever lied? Even white lies are counted... that would make you a LIAR... did you ever look at a woman with lust? according to Jesus whoever looks upon a woman and lusts after her already commits aldultery with her in his heart... if you have... you are an adulterer by heart... again... according to Jesus... whoever hates his brother is a murderer... can you see how high Gods standard is? and how PURE He is? He is SINLESS... PURE WHITE... and we say its unfair? Unfair if we don't go to heaven? Well... we don't deserve to go to heaven if we keep on commiting into sin... and that is not following the 10 Commandments... that is the REASON why Jesus came here... for our sins... His LOVE is UNCONDITIONAL... BUT in order to get SAVED... we need to REPENT... that is 180 degree turn from SIN... and there is NO other way to heaven except through Jesus believe it or not... and oh yeah... I don't believe in God by your so called "faith" I believe in Him because I have experienced His pressence... how do you experience His pressence? By following Him and obeying His commands... then He will fellowship with you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mike-oh Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 The unfairness that dr blow mentioned was not unfairness with respect to sinners gettin into heaven. It was unfairness to people from other religions, who repent probably as much as you do, in their own way but within their own belief system. Are non christian repentants all wrong? Are they all condemed to suffer eternally? I understand what you're saying, to a degree. We're inherently imperfect, but that's the way we are, we aren't gods, we can't be perfect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drblow Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 What he said! :D No, come on now ... do you honestly believe that someone who looks at a woman with lust has already commited adultery with her in their heart?? :shock: What if you're not married? What if she's not married? What is the big deal with the basic instinct of sexual lust? It is after all what leads to there being people in the world! :shock: See, it's stuff like that just makes me turn off. It's so out dated, so archaic to think that way. What do you think the last few thousand years of evolution have been all about? Just a big mission to get the whole world to believe that they are pathetic sinners, with no self worth, and the only way to redemption is through a life of religious denial of basic instincts like sex? The human race would die out pretty quick (of boredom if nothing else), don't you think? The whole idea that you are a "sinner" just has too much scary, mind-control conotation for me. & what about homosexuals? What about lusting after a big, strapping man?? :D But then, I guess you would hold the age old argument that homosexuality is a sin, eh? Wouldn't that go down well with the modern generation!? Seriously, I mean, I don't like trying to persuade people from a religious stance that they are wrong (you are entitled to your belief of course)... but you gotta accept that in the modern world, views like you express above are not going to be popular, eh?! See, that's the problem with religion. Too many dumb rules, written several thousand years ago. & too many contradictions. You say Jesus' love is unconditional, but there's a hell of a lot of conditions on entry into your "heaven". & to say that the "only" way to heaven is through Jesus ignores what I said above. There are plenty of good people who do not "sin", who do not believe in Jesus. But ask them where they think their soul will go after death, they'll tell you they're going to "heaven". You say you have experienced the "prescence" of god? Yeah, me too - every time I see the sunset, or my wife, or a nice flower ... :shock: & to say that you have that experience contradicts the basic principle of faith - you are using "proof" to argue that your god exists - thereby indicating that you "need" that proof. People have religious experiences every day, where they "feel" the presence of "god" (believe me when I tell you in Ireland it happens every couple of minutes! :D ). I have - usually on LSD! :lol: :D . But it doesn't make me feel like a "sinner" or "unworthy", in fact just the opposite. It makes me proud to be a member of the human race, a being of flesh & blood & intellect ... with an ability to reason & feel & think for myself & express emotion ... an ability to love ... all that mushy stuff! :D I feel the presence of god in the very fact that I am alive! But when I say "god", it's really just a word for something that cannot be clearly defined - spirituality is closer to what I express personally. It doesn't make we want to go out & join some kind of mind controlling cult that will tell me I'm a no-good sinner & that I must repent for doing basic instinctual things, or be threatened with an eternity of damnation. Have you ever wondered why there is so much child abuse goes on in Catholic schools in Ireland (& please don't just try to deny that it happens)? Won't you feel silly if you get to heaven & find out that the only reason you were ever on Earth was to just have an experience? Have some fun, some emotions, some love ... play with smartphones!!?? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mike-oh Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 And just to show we're all still friends whatever our beliefs, here's a present. I think you might need it soon contrite, yours must be nearly worn out. :wink:fullstop key.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c0ntrite Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 :lol: once again... I'm not out to please people but to tell the truth... yes indeed those who have repented and have not accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior will NOT enter heaven... it seems to me that you are enjoying your sinful life... so have I... but I turned away from it... its really hard... going against the flow... I remember the days when I can get everything I want from the net... illegal programs (including smartphone apps and games) mp3s, porno, movies, etc... it was like "heaven" to the flesh... but now I have to sacrifice all those and use linux (which is slower than my illegal win2k because of my pentium 200mhz system.) and when it comes to freewill... you have it... :D thats how much God loves us... He has given us freewill whether to love Him or not... for me... I have chosen to love Him... and leave my sinful "nature" once again... God never changes... we should be the one to change not Him... My intention for this thread is not to argue... but to spread the TRUTH... and for those who want the truth can visit the site... and those who don't... well its up to them ;) your eternal salvation is really up to you... not me or God... its your freewill... by the way I'm not Catholic... well I use to be one until I read the Bible :D you'll never really know until you read and apply... :D there is a BIG difference between knowing and believing... :D God Bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brody Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 I really shouldn't be getting involved in this debate but i'm too interested not too! I too am intrigued by religion but am not an overly religious person, I am not saying that I do not believe in a God of some kind but I am definately not practising. I think from my personal experience that I can say that I have many friends who are put off buy religion purely as a result of the attitude of some religious people. I live with a religious person who does not act in this way, he keeps his faith to himself and I respect him for that. Religion and faith is an unconditional belief that I cannot realise at this point in my life, to have faith you have to banish any doubt related to disbelief, again something that I simply cannot do at this time. I hate to say it but we are two thousand years from the birth of Jesus and I know how much stories can change in that amount of time. I have no evidence other than the word of man (the Bible) and we have all confirmed that people lie or bend the truth, people like to exagerate, its human nature. Personally I live my life by my own beliefs at my own pace, if pushed I would say that I believe in a God of some kind, some higher energy but I struggle to believe in what has been written about God by man. Simply put the Bible is a book written about God by man and I do not have faith in man's ability to pass on such a story with total accuracy. Anyone wanting a really good read should go buy Angels and Demons by Dan Brown, it is a fictional novel based upon fact, it raises some very interesting theories and facts about the religious world and its not so perfect past of attempting to kill off scientists with the aim of stopping them disproving religion. The biggest theme I have drawn from the book would be this question, why can't science prove religion? Why can't science be the proof of God's work? Why couldn't he have created physics? it seems only natural to me that if you were to create a world then you would design some rules by which it would function, perhaps we are just descovering these rules and thus discovering God's work? Interesting thought eh? :lol: One that I like the sound of if I'm honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drblow Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 I just think it's dead sad to think that having fun is a "sin", and that you shouldn't do it. I mean, downloading illegal mp3 files is in one way slightly immoral. But thats open to interpretation. Do you think it is moral for the recording industry to make billions of dollars per year out of us by charging overly inflated prices for CDs, which are made in third world countries, using slave labour!!?? :lol: & anyway - what about the file sharing aspect? What about all that global sharing thats going on, surely sharing is not a "sin"?? :D ;) :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c0ntrite Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 drblow, my dad and I argue about that all the time... is it right or is it wrong? Is it right because you like doing it? or is it just plain wrong. Its just plain wrong and we shouldn't make excuses that companies make billions of dollars in over priced CDs... if we can't afford it then don't buy it, its as simple as that... we shouldn't sin because of other people... I couldn't afford to buy an ORIGINAL Windows CD... but I could easily download or buy a pirated cd... but I choose not to because I know its wrong... instead I take the ALTERNATIVE route... I download Linux (which is FREE) and I also download LEGAL mp3s on the net on download.com as you can see there are alternatives which we can take but choose not to take because of our greed. And yes sin is pleasurable than righteousness. Being righteous takes ALOT more effort, patience, control than sin. Sin we can easily do and its PLEASURABLE. Please be informed that we are not alone in this world... devils do exists and they do a good job in fooling us. brody, a real Christian has concerns for the lost and should not keep quiet about it. He should be hesistant to tell the plain truth without sugar coating even though it hurts. because once you bend "truth" it becomes a lie. Imagine a firefigther not doing his job while a bulding is burning a a family is being burned to death. Imagine that firefigther just sitting in the truck and singing praise songs and worship. Those family in the burning buildling are the LOST and he is the firefighter doing nothing. For Jesus said "whoever tries to saves his life shall loose it but whoever looses his life for me shall save it." Guys... I'm not out here to please you. Im here to tell you the PLAIN TRUTH. Sorry if i might have offended most of you but that is not my intention. My intention is for you to know the truth and God's wrath is upon us unless we repent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brody Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 The plain truth in your mind yes, but not other peoples. Well like they always say, don't talk about politics, money and religion. I still believe that lots of people are against religion because of some of the people as opposed to the principles of the religion in the first place. I do not like being told what to think, I will make my own mind up as i'm sure you and everyone else has or will. I probably wont post in this thread again because we could chat for years! I am happy to respect your beliefs, I just hope you are happy to respect the beliefs of the people around you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drblow Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 Woah! :shock: This gets better erevy time!! :D You are not offending me m8 - quite the opposite infact! I find it highly entertaining to read this thread now. I don't really think that you are telling the truth either! :twisted: It may be YOUR truth, & you may well believe that it SHOULD be everybodys truth ... but I'm sorry to inform you that it's NOT!! :twisted: I'll tell you something - as far as I'm concerned there are a few "sins" in the world that people should turn away from. One is brain washing by fear. Situations where human beings are made to feel worthless & humiliated, to be repeatedly told you are nothing ... kind of like church!! :lol: To me, it is true EVIL to try to make people feel they are anything but free spirits, and that their choices in life are not dictated. Another great "sin", as I'm sure most will agree, is war. Perpetrated by god-fearing folk ... like George Bush! :D The TRUTH is we will never agree. You are driven by a religious calling to spread your message, and I am driven by a spiritual necessity to be myself, and accept myself, even with all my misgivings! :D I do not consider myself to be a "bad" person. Most of my decisions in life have been made with good intentions. Sure, I have been known to say "f**k or bu**er" (yes, thats butter! ;) ) once or twice, but believe me when I tell you that within myself I can "feel" the presence of "god" - and it ususally tells me that "everything is gonna be alright!" :twisted: Amen brother!! :D & I certainly don't need rules & dictates from an archaic 2000 year old book to tell me how to live. But that doesn't mean that I don't feel spirituality, or believe that I am not simply flesh & bone, but a soul aswell. I can express my "soul" as a musician - thats why I am a musician. The term "soul" music was coined by black musicians who could really "feel" their "soul" when they played. People like me praise "god" every time we play - by being ourselves, and expressing our true "heart" when we play. Improvised music is a spiritual thing young man! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gsr264 Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 Easy on the Bush hatred you bunch of tea drinkers.... :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c0ntrite Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 respect in other peoples beliefs... yes... definitely... but to agree with them... no... I wont agree with other peoples beliefs just to please them... I tell them the hard reality which most people don't accept... and I wont also force anyone to this reality because Jesus never forces His way into peoples life... so who am I to force anyone? I only follow Jesus... may God Bless us all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skunkchild Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 With respect, this thread was funny now it's just b*ll*x ! The real truth is - GOD is long dead - if you want proof you're welcome to make it up yourself. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mike-oh Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 That's just plain disrespectful. [-X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gorskar Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Well I am a Christian, and believe Jesus died for my Sins. (NB just for the record I have sinned, and do still Sin, but Jesus has paid for them so I'm not going to be punished. As its him taking the punishment I dont want to Sin and pile em up on him too much though!) However I think these kinds of threads are fairly pointless - I've seen them before on other forums and no-ones ever changed their beliefs because of them. You can't really prove God exists through logic just as you cant disprove it. I've done a Maths degree so I know about this! One thing that does get bandied around sometimes is the simple chance of life ever evolving based on the theory of Evolution (without help ie God) being statistically insignificant. I dont have the figured on me though. Then again theres other questions that get thrown up on the other side of the debate which I dont have perfect answers to, and thus am going somewhat on Faith :lol: I'm going to try and stick out of this one from now on though given that no-ones going to be convinced one way or the other. Happy arguing :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest c0ntrite Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 :) the second letter is out :( topic: Is your god the real God? check the website if you want to read it. http://zoki.filetap.com God Bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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