Who would donate money towards app signing[UPDATED 27/03/03]

[Guest Monolithix [MVP]]

Unless the application somehow edits or corrupts the phones ROM image(which I don't think is possible directly from the phone?), the phone can _always_ be reset to factory settings, and O will be none-the-wiser.

As for MS building a secure OS, it won't happen until they get their act together and build an Os from the ground up, now theres a novel idea. Then all they have to do is shake off the image of being notorious for creating insecure applications...

[Guest Southwestwall]

Some of the posts the regulars are fending off here are making entertaining reading, if nothing else [like sense, for instance].

You can tell by the "what if the evil virus nukes my phone, yadda yadda... and Orange won't replace it [snivel, sniff]" line taken by some here - is this tripe for real, or for the sake of picking an argument? - that CDF surely is being bred out of the population, and that engineering isn't a particularly popular discipline anymore.

The attention span and self-dependency is surely lacking too. The majority of opposition here is raising points that have been answered time and again on this forum. Is it so difficult to scroll up to the search tab, enter a key word and research your lovingly-crafted post?

ENGAGE BRAIN BEFORE ENGAGING FINGERS TO KEYS.

I suppose that's the one advantage of nntp - even if tripe-posters know it exists, it is too complicated and too much effort to use.

I think this forum is tops,

but its ease of use may be one of its drawbacks :wink:

[Guest DJHope]

My point was that if you agreed to the disclaimer and screwed the phone, you're still gonna try your luck with Orange. Admit it, if a hardreset doesn't work are you gonna accept that or try and get a new phone off Orange? Besides who really reads the T&Cs when installing software?

Yeh monolithix has a point EVERYTHING should be solved by a hard reset since nothing can mangle with the rom even with cert off, go on just try and edit that windows directory!

DJ Hope

[Guest Bazz]

[RN]Max, I'm one of the oldest members and a regular so I take offence to that! ;-)

I don't believe in certification, I was just playing Devil's Advocate to show Orange's point of view. I personally think it sucks. Having seen Tetris, A Gameboy Emulator and Doom come out this week I intend to unlock when I get a moment this weekend.

This phone offers a radically different paradigm. PCs are pretty much the same. The brand just offers some different hardware/build quality. Most people with a computer problem will search the web for an answer or ask a computer literate friend to fix it rather than complain direct to the manufacture. At any rate the manufacturer often has a premium rate number to handle support.

Because traditionally phone's are subsidized by and tied to one network and people traditionally send issues direct to that network and demand the issues are fixed. Would you complain to BT cause your PC didn't work? No. This makes support a big issue for the Networks and I believe this is why Orange have implemented certification. Totally my opinions here BTW, I don't work in the telecoms industry.

Yes I think fears of the Network collapsing and phones breaking for good are widely exaggerated. However smartphones that install software will intrinsically be more difficult to support than traditional phones. Even telling a customer over the phone how to do a hard reset costs Orange time and money. Maybe if Orange had a premium rate number for Smartphone software questions they'd allow any installs. Then again, with that model you've got to work out what consistutes a "support" issue (which could be the network's fault) and what constitutes "advice" (which could be you just not knowing how to use the phone).

As Smartphones get more and more popular people's knowledge (users, call centre staff and operators) will grow along with web knowledge (like this site) which people can reference rather than bombarding the Orange helpline. People's complaint's of the manual are valid enough (and I'm sure the cause of many calls to Orange), but have you checked out the Windows XP manual? Or any Linux one?

Finally (sorry for the long post), I know a lot of these points have been raised before, but they are intermingled with new thoughts/new members. I get annoyed with the same old questions appearing, which can be easily answered with a search, but topics like this deserve more discussion until there is a definitive solution - It's a discussion forum, so let's discuss.

Barry

[Guest DJHope]

But barry their is nothing that cant be done with a hard reset. The general advice from orange suport could be if you screw up your phone take it to an orange shop and get them todo it it only takes a matter of minutes and they could charge for the service (£££ Lots).

If that didnt work they could pull out the backup mmc card from under the counter once again charge more money and use that to restore the phone. Ive herd nothing can beat that method short of very stupidly deleting the bootloader in which case its an insurance job for you!

I agree that the adverage joe would have issues with software and screwing up his phone but that is the way the market is progressing, orange should be looking to charge more, people want unlocked phones so charge for the privildge this should balance off the "people having phone screw-ups" with the extra cost involved. The point here is they dont give you the option, if they said extra £100 and you can run anything on your phone then id go for it!

Someone on here had a sony-erkison p800 from the netherlands, according to him his network operator had it set up so if you run an unsigned application it came up with the disclamer we are talking about, if orange refuse point blank to help when you ignore this disclamer then obviously you will have to take full resonsibility with no legal recourse.

Just my thoughts

DJ Hope

[Guest Bazz]

Yeah I agree totally, but cause it's new they wanna support it and don't wanna have to charge extra for that. And although you and I understand the issues and costs involved with uncertified phones the average Joe ain't gonna be happy being charged more cause they can't run Tetris. You don't have to unlock your PC.

Yup that's the way the market is heading. Although certification might act as a quality control in the very short term, the worrying thing is once we accept it Orange might see little point in removing it in the future :-(

I've no idea what the answer is but I do know one thing - the current situation ain't it! It was probably best to leave certification off completely from the beginning and get people to accept the new model of phones.

Still, I'm enjoying this debate. It's one of the few on this board which hasn't result in childish taunts at each other (though must admit I often start those taunts ;-))

Barry

[Guest spacemonkey]

One of the problems with phone platforms (and part of why people like Orange are extra paranoid) is that you sell them to another lower common denominator of user. Computers while becoming more and more standard are not in every home, the people who get them are at least very slightly computer literate or at least interested.

The phone market is more like the console market or the microwave oven market. The bulk of the consumers just want to buy a thing that does what they expect, as runs games, cooks food, talks to friends. A lot of these people would be VERY UPSET by the thought that they'd need to hard reset their phone, they also wouldn't seperate that the phone only got buggy (hmmm?) after installing tetris, they'd just say that Orange was crap.

I'm not saying that they should have certification, this is more an issue with the increasing technology present in all items in life. It is becoming that users need to be technically literate if they want to use any electronic item. Certification is the way that Orange and M$ are trying yo address this which I personally disagree with. You need to improve general stability, and fault tolerance in the system (look at windows 2000 vs windows 98, if an app goes bad win 2000 kills it and keeps running fine(ish)) and you also need to help educate the users by communicating to them in ways they understand.

Just my opinion...

PS: barry_pollard smells ;)

[Guest Paul [MVP]]

I'm amazed how few childish taunts there are - most forums have much more of that than this one!

We are all so mature...

So there!

;)

P

[Guest DJHope]

"Saving the stupid from themselves", sounds like something hitler would have come up with ;)

DJ Hope

[Guest MBoden]

HEY, i dont wanna be mature !! :twisted:

PAUL , you SUCK :wink:

aaah, feel much better AND childish now ;)

[Guest AFC MAGIC]

Hi there,

This is my first post so i hope this works!!

The idea of donating for a cert. is (unfortunately) flawed.

If 75 peaple donate just over six pounds, we get an app which will work on the original coded software.

Howver, if i donate i expect to get a copy of the app, once each donating party has a copy there are none left and you have to start again.

All this is, is a way of getting OUR software for just over six quid.

Any thoughts?

Allan

P.S I'd appreciate it if people would refrain from laying into me if i have got the wrong end of the stick.

P.P.S Arsene really DOES have a magic hat!

[Guest Paul [MVP]]

Don't make me give you a 'yellow card' MBoden ;)

P

[Guest MBoden]

Paul, you just got one for calling me mature ;-)

besides , i'm sure Orange don't label us mature, i think they see us as crybabies :-/

[Guest spacemonkey]

The idea of donating for a cert. is (unfortunately) flawed.

If 75 peaple donate just over six pounds, we get an app which will work on the original coded software.

Howver, if i donate i expect to get a copy of the app, once each donating party has a copy there are none left and you have to start again.

All this is, is a way of getting OUR software for just over six quid.

Any thoughts?

You have got the wrong end of the stick I think. If we get donations to the value of £300 we can sign up for the baltimore program. This gives us 75 signings as in we can sign 75 DIFFERENT apps or versions of apps.

Each signed app can be installed and used by as many people as you like. As in sign once use anywhere. So that's 75 different apps for the whole community for £300 which is not an unfair price.

Beyond that 75 yes we would need more money in the program but as it's the ball park of £4-6 per app (for the whole community, not per user) that's not really horrific.

There's also not 75 appropriate apps ready for signing just yet ;)

[Guest AFC MAGIC]

YUP, Spacemonkey you are right, i didn't even have the stick in my hand.

tho all is clear now, thank.

[Guest MBoden]

I think that we should say that every piece of software take around 3 signings (3 versions) , 75 signings should cover 25-50 different programs

[Guest AFC MAGIC]

Oh and by the way i did the poll, would definitely donate a tenner!!!!!!!!

[Guest spacemonkey]

Yeah, you would certainly use up signings on new versions to fix up bugs. The real question is how long you wait before signing an app. The unlocked phone community can test and fix bugs in a program so the longer it is only with them the cleaner the final version signed will be.

Of course the locked phone community would be keener on having an app now (even if not perfect) rather than later, so it's whether to sign early when the app is useable but not perfect to satisfy the peoples hunger or to hold back in the name of saving £6.

Given the Poll status, if we moved forwards on this it'd be more efficient money wise to do the £600 250 signings option ;)

[Guest MBoden]

I read somewhere that when you sign a program, you can get it signed again for free as long as it's under 9 days later ??!?

[Guest spacemonkey]

Yep, that's Baltimore... it's basically so that when your packaging it up and you sign the app and package you can test it. It's easy at the last minute to cockup something minor and they are providing you the opportunity to recover from being stupid.

Which is a "good thing".

You could potentially try to abuse this to sign multiple apps with one use but I wouldn't recommend it, cos a) ethical reasons and ;) if they caught you they'd kick your ass off the program.

[Guest Paul [MVP]]

I guess an app is one signing, and a cab is another?

It would make sense in that case to put multiple applications in one cab?

Or, I guess, to provide EXEs with no CABs...

P

[Guest spacemonkey]

I think from what I read that one app is app (& associated files (dlls)) + cab.

Basically the idea is that if you've written something and want to get it out into the world it should be 1 signing to do so. That is as long as you've organised your life and are ready to go with a full, program + cab setup.

[Guest Paul [MVP]]

So...

Shall I start collecting money?

Or shall I find a sponsor who is willing to donate the 600 quid in return for the credit ;)

P

[Guest spacemonkey]

Yeah, I think we've established that everyone is keen, so ready to go...

We probably should draw up some sort of FAQ/rulebook just to manage everyones expectation.

eg, Items such as: (this is just my rough vision)

1. The project is based around freeware apps only.

2. A developer must provide an app to the project in an unsigned state for evaluation and testing

3. Any app under consideration will be fully available to the public in unsigned form

4. The project team will make the decision (with advice from non-team members) as to whether an app is ready for signing or not

5. The application signer will be person XXX, operating through the limited company YYY. This person will not use the application signing account for any purpose other than a project team nominated signing.

6. The project leader will be :???? (Paul? Maybe a section on the forum for project related things?)

7. All signed apps will be made fully available to the public

Something like that anyway, I'm keen to donate but would like something formal, it's not like it's giveboobs.com or something ;)

[Guest Paul [MVP]]

OK, the 'SPV Application Signing Project' is born.

I'll set up a specific forum by this weekend at the latest, and all relevant posts will go in there.

This could be fun...

So who's going to register SPV-ASP Ltd? ;)

P