Is WM5 flawed due to move to persistant storage?

[Guest peterweg]

http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archiv.../29/498154.aspx

A long but interesting discussion of the memory issues with WM2005. I have been shocked how cr*p the Wizard (o2) is compaired to my old c500. It crashes. There is something called a 'soft reset' button!!.

Turning on and off takes ages. Ive been using wififofum and although its supposed to be WM5 compatible, its crashing because of persistant memory issues (stoping and restarting the app doesn't clear the list of AP's). The video camera is rubbish and the still camera is bad. Apparently lots of apps are loaded in memory because of speed issues.

MemMaid memory management tool for Windows Mobile.

http://www.pocketgear.com/software_detail.asp?id=14279

This tool is a MUST for anyone using WM5.

Do a soft reset of a WM5 device and then lauch MemMaid.

You'll see all the nasty little things like the Pocket Office apps already being loaded into memory to hide some of the shortcomings with speed.

You'll see what a poor OS WM5 really is.

(There is also a memory leak issue with option buttons. Task manger crashs when app crashes. Lots of apps don't have an exit buttom. There no equivalent to Task Manager in Windows. Switching between apps is tedious. Activesync switching off wifi and it also starts itself randomly. Oh, and O2 removed the GPS manager. )

Can anyone point me towards an application that works without crashing or screwing up (while accessing memory) because my Wizard is so bad, its seems faulty. (I have done cache settings and error reporting tweaks)

Edited January 12, 2006 by peterweg

[Guest minty1978]

to be honest, it sounds like you have a faulty unit.

mine is fine, soft reboot is quick. cold boot doesn't take much longer than my C500 did.

i dont have many apps installed on mine, and when i do install them...if the phone goes funny, uninstall them and try a different one.

[Guest peterweg]

to be honest, it sounds like you have a faulty unit.

mine is fine, soft reboot is quick. cold boot doesn't take much longer than my C500 did.

i dont have many apps installed on mine, and when i do install them...if the phone goes funny, uninstall them and try a different one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whats the definition of 'quick'? soft reset takes 95 seconds (soft reset via the rest button?) to the password entry. about 105 seconds with cold start. I've take every thing except battery, lock status and date of today and applied all the tweaks from howardforums, here and xda developers.

I had it just over a week and it crashed twice on the first day. Opening MSN and then changing screen orientation (not crashed doing that that since). I don't have much installed on it. Mainly utilies to try and get it working.

[Guest Pondrew]

There is something called a 'soft rest' button!!.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm gonna make a wild guess and say this is your first pocket PC. Why? Because I don't think one was ever made WITHOUT a 'soft reset' button! Much the same way as PCs have reset buttons funnily enough...

As for the rest of it... I can't say as I don't have an HTC Wizard but I have read that the O2 Active software makes any Pocket PC device buggy. I will agree that there are memory issues in WM5 but not to the extent you're having them.

Oh, and I'd say the eqivalent to task manager on desktop that you're looking for is Memory Manager found in settings.

[Guest peterweg]

I'm gonna make a wild guess and say this is your first pocket PC. Why? Because I don't think one was ever made WITHOUT a 'soft reset' button! Much the same way as PCs have reset buttons funnily enough...

As for the rest of it... I can't say as I don't have an HTC Wizard but I have read that the O2 Active software makes any Pocket PC device buggy. I will agree that there are memory issues in WM5 but not to the extent you're having them.

Oh, and I'd say the eqivalent to task manager on desktop that you're looking for is Memory Manager found in settings.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, yes its my first 'Pocket PC' phone but its a cusumer device to be used as a telephone. It should be reliable out of the box. The operating system should be designed as a Real Time Operating System from the ground up, with watchdog timers monitoring the system health and repairing problems automatically.

Does anyone as Microsoft have any idea how to write an operating system? (except for the NT developers who were from DEC)

Reminds me a of friend who was a motorboat captain on a $3million dollar boat in S. France. It had Win95 for controlling fuel and water flow etc. Unbeleivable that anyone thought a desktop OS could be used for a Control System, its like using icing sugar to build the hull and not being able to comprehend why it might be a problem.

Of course when win95 crashed the water and fuel pumps stopped working. Italian boatbuilders are not engineers.

[Guest bennish]

It's a PDA first, with phone capability. If you want a phone with PDA capability, buy a smartphone, not a pocketpc.

As for the 'Soft Rest' button, i believe you mean soft reset, it's pretty common.

You may have a faulty unit. But how in the universe does O2 taking out GPS, and wififofum not being compatible, equate to microsoft not knowing how to write an OS?

My wizard crashed *once* when I very stupidly installed a program specifically stating not to put it on wm5 (it was very old). My old wm2003 device crashed almost weekly, and i had to reinstall EVERYTHING. My wizard stays alive after a crash, kind of like... a little computer! who'd have thought that's what it was? I thought it was a 'cusumer telephone'!

What kind of idiot would use windows 95 for controlling a boat? Where on earth has microsoft EVER stated that windows is for anything other than personal and business use?

95 seconds is not normal for a restart. You have a faulty unit. Do some research.

This is a forum for help and advice. If you're yet *another* one of those people who spends their time bagging microsoft and not doing anything useful, go buy a nokia and a nice mac and get out of our faces.

If you have genuine problems and would like help SOLVING them, ask in a mature manner and everyone here will be friendly and helpful.

Edited January 12, 2006 by bennish

[Guest Drewtech]

A week ago I switched from a C500 to a T-Mobile MDA Vario. I used to use pocket PCs before I got the C500 and missed a few things but like only carrying one device. My Vario has not crashed since I got it and seems to work fine but I am sure it will crash sometime - my C500 crashed occasionally. I have just compared the startup times of the two devices. The C500 took 55 seconds to powerup and show a phone connection the Vario took 65 seconds. So far I am very happy with my Vario it is the nearest thing to the device I have been waiting for since I first carried a mobile phone and Filofax.

[Guest adchaffey]

A week ago I switched from a C500 to a T-Mobile MDA Vario. I used to use pocket PCs before I got the C500 and missed a few things but like only carrying one device. My Vario has not crashed since I got it and seems to work fine but I am sure it will crash sometime -  my C500 crashed occasionally. I have just compared the startup times of the two devices. The C500 took 55 seconds to powerup and show a phone connection the Vario took 65 seconds. So far I am very happy with my Vario it is the nearest thing to the device I have been waiting for since I first carried a mobile phone and Filofax.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I second that.... and well put bennish. Really can't see the point in coming here to slag off a device a lot of people are very happy with including ME!

I've switched from a C500 to a Vario and can't beleive anyone could rightly say it isn't a good move! Unless the extra size is a huge concern to you, the extra functionality and in my opinion improved reliability and call quality is well woth the switch.

Anyway, that's my 2 pence. I've said it on another thread but I honestly believe the Vario is everything my old C500 wanted to be but fell short!

[Guest peterweg]

It's a PDA first, with phone capability. If you want a phone with PDA capability, buy a smartphone, not a pocketpc.

As for the 'Soft Rest' button, i believe you mean soft reset, it's pretty common.

You may have a faulty unit. But how in the universe does O2 taking out GPS, and wififofum not being compatible, equate to microsoft not knowing how to write an OS?

My wizard crashed *once* when I very stupidly installed a program specifically stating not to put it on wm5 (it was very old). My old wm2003 device crashed almost weekly, and i had to reinstall EVERYTHING. My wizard stays alive after a crash, kind of like... a little computer! who'd have thought that's what it was? I thought it was a 'cusumer telephone'!

What kind of idiot would use windows 95 for controlling a boat? Where on earth has microsoft EVER stated that windows is for anything other than personal and business use?

95 seconds is not normal for a restart. You have a faulty unit. Do some research.

This is a forum for help and advice. If you're yet *another* one of those people who spends their time bagging microsoft and not doing anything useful, go buy a nokia and a nice mac and get out of our faces.

If you have genuine problems and would like help SOLVING them, ask in a mature manner and everyone here will be friendly and helpful.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Given that I have bought MS for going on 26 years and I got a Computer and Control engineering degree and spent my entire life working in the computer industry. Working entirely with MS software. This is my third MS phone, I even have a XBOX.

I think I have the right to critisise poor workmanship - I'm not a mindless MS fanboy.

Do some research?? I have spent days reading through list of problems with this phone (did you read the article I linked? obviously not because you fail to have moticed Microsoft's comments about why they made the change. A change that has had serious consequences).

There is a massive list of problem people are having with this phone. Mine crashed twice within the first hour, this is not my fault. Its a fundermnetal design flaw, because hardware and software can and should be designed to gracefully recover if it is engineered properly. I don't want comments from people who have spent their life working with MS software and therefore assume that that is how computers are supposed to work.

Tell, why when an application crashes on WM2005, does task manager stop working? the last OS produced that did that was, what, OS/2 ? And that was a desktop operating system, not a RTOS.

I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's delicate little ego's but I don't care. The original SPV was bad but the c500 gave me high hopes for the Wizard.

I'm off back to the shop to get a replacement.

Edited January 12, 2006 by peterweg

[Guest Tech]

all I can say - its not the OS causing the problem, guarenteed

[Guest Pondrew]

Topic title edited to make more sense.

Problem is Peterweg that many users aren't having the problems you are. That suggests a faulty unit. May I refer you to this thread here?

Just that your thread reminds me very much of that one (which incidentally was titled differently until the original poster requested it be changed...)

[Guest peterweg]

all I can say - its not the OS causing the problem, guarenteed

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, maybe the unit is faulty.

My issue with the OS is its inability to to anything when an app crashes and the numerous other hassles people are having within it.

More :

I removed the sddaemon process that causes a memory leak, still no better. Funny how a bug like that hasn't been fixed even though its been know for two months. I assume everyone else here knows how to check the notification queue for duplicates and remove buggy services with third party software? Thats standard MS PDA phone operations along with registry editing and rebooting every day?

[Guest peterweg]

Topic title edited to make more sense.

Problem is Peterweg that many users aren't having the problems you are. That suggests a faulty unit. May I refer you to this thread here?

Just that your thread reminds me very much of that one (which incidentally was titled differently until the original poster requested it be changed...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats exactly what happening to me. including problems with Active sync. There must be some sort of common fault causing a group of problems.

[Guest mupwangle]

Or it's a common fault on the o2 rom.

[Guest peterweg]

Or it's a common fault on the o2 rom.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It probably is. I did a hard reset and set it to corporate. Boots in 55 seconds. 25.6mb free. Seems much better already before the tweaks. Using Activesync the first time caused problems, so I shall see what happens. I fact I'll install everything without using activesync.

Edited January 12, 2006 by peterweg

[Guest bennish]

Nothing to do with egos mate. It's more to do with you saying the OS is bad, and noone agreeing with you.

I could really give a toss what errors occur on some devices. I don't really care what your link links to, or how many people have certain errors that could be to do with any number of things.

A design flaw, by the way, is a flaw with the DESIGN. They're the same DESIGN. So a design flaw would affect ALL OF THEM. Are we having some trouble here?

And how would someone so familiar with all this stuff not know what a 'soft reset' button is? You do realise many computers have them. It also has a memory management app and many other things.

Here's what's peeving me about your complaining:

- You experience a problem the majority of users don't.

- You accuse the OS of being the cuplrit, which means every user should experience the problem.

- Again, the majority of users don't experience the problem.

Conclusion: It is something OTHER than the OS itself causing the problem.

Solution: Find out what's causing it - hardware, software, extended rom - and fix it. If you approach it maturely you can enlist the help of some other people. Whinging won't help.

Edited January 12, 2006 by bennish

[Guest peterweg]

The link explains how and why the change to persistant storage was made and includes MS reply. My assertion that the operating system is possibly flawed by this change is explained there. If you had bothered to read it you will realise this isn't a minor issue and its a design issue. software designers will have to use a lot more memory to overcome the performance issue. So apps that used to take 5Mb may need to use 15Mb . Thats the whole point of this thread, that and the OS's lack of stability with faulty apps.

You simply have no idea what I'm talking about or why I'm talking about it so please ignore me.

[Guest spacemonkey]

OK, on the original topic of is WM5 flawed to be running with persistant memory,

The answer is that the question is irrelevant. The fact of the mater is that microsoft made a choice that has both pros and cons to move to persistant memory, the real thing that makes this a big issue is that people believe that old apps will work as they normally did and there'd be full backward compatability.

This is the crux of the issue. I have had very few issues with my wizard but I use it almost straight out of the box and the few extra apps I have loaded are ones that have been specifically modified for WM5. I have had problems and can trace almost all of them to times when I started playing around with older 3rd party applications that hadn't been modified to behave right under WM5.

So the issue is that the paradigm of how memory must be managed has changed and a lot of code (even code that has been "updated") still assumes the old paradigm holds. What we really needed is a clearer statement at release that WM5 is predominantly not backwards compatable and detail for developers to aid them in porting their existing apps to the new environment.

Any arguments around "is the new design good/bad" is just pissing in the wind just like the arguments from developers of "sony's PS3 processor makes it impossible to write good games", the answer is it requires understanding of it's structure to write code correctly for it, whether it is ultimately good or bad will only be known with the test of time.

[Guest peterweg]

OK, on the original topic of is WM5 flawed to be running with persistant memory,

The answer is that the question is irrelevant.  The fact of the mater is that microsoft made a choice that has both pros and cons to move to persistant memory, the real thing that makes this a big issue is that people believe that old apps will work as they normally did and there'd be full backward compatability.

This is the crux of the issue.  I have had very few issues with my wizard but I use it almost straight out of the box and the few extra apps I have loaded are ones that have been specifically modified for WM5.  I have had problems and can trace almost all of them to times when I started playing around with older 3rd party applications that hadn't been modified to behave right under WM5.

So the issue is that the paradigm of how memory must be managed has changed and a lot of code (even code that has been "updated") still assumes the old paradigm holds.  What we really needed is a clearer statement at release that WM5 is predominantly not backwards compatable and detail for developers to aid them in porting their existing apps to the new environment.

Any arguments around "is the new design good/bad" is just pissing in the wind just like the arguments from developers of "sony's PS3 processor makes it impossible to write good games", the answer is it requires understanding of it's structure to write code correctly for it, whether it is ultimately good or bad will only be known with the test of time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. MS should have made it impossible to install none WM2005 applications (not that I did but I still had problem) becaue of the damage they can do. I specifically wanted WM5 for PS and I'm willing to lose performance for it. I am concerned that developers will get much more memory hungry to overcome performance issues.