iPOD

[Guest scott2eyes]

I used to agree 100% with the "why use an iPod when you've got a smartphone/pocketPC."

Then I was given a mini iPod last Christmas and I don't think I've listened to an MP3 on my phone or PPC since.

Fast forward, rewind, create playlists on the fly, equaliser, larger storage, no stuttering, better sound and so on.

Yes, the DRM thing can be a pain in the neck (although I've had no problems with it yet- I had much more grief with WMA files than I've had with AAC), but if it weren't for that system being in place, the iTunes music store wouldn't exist and legal music downloads would probably not exist.

[Guest fluffcat1]

Apple obfuscate the file system on the iPod, so even if you hack your way in, the files are inaccessible. Utter nonsense. I buy gadgets for MY use. Not someone elses list of things that they decide to allow me. And on numerous occassions "updates" to iTunes have removed functionality. Apples refusal to allow anyone else to sell iPod compatible media has given them an almost complete monopoly on digital media downloads. Apple only get away with what they do because they are the little guy. If Microsoft pulled these sort of stunts they would be in court faster than you can say "bundled services".

Sharepod.exe allows you to bypass DRM / itunes.

I don't agree with the argument that apple 'get away' with what they do as they are the 'little guy'. Look at their sales figures for ipod / itunes. They don't have dominance on a Microsoft scale, but they are successful. It's just market protectinism on their part and I can fully understand it although it does irritate me slightly, and there are ways around it.

Microsoft get into trouble because they bundle / muscle in on areas outside their core products that people purchase, to restrict / limit / disrupt competition in those other aeras, eg I.E with windoze, and I believe apple *is* coming to grief over iTunes reliance on installing Quicktime - unless you are careful installing / updating iTunes you get Quicktime set as the default player for movies etc :evil:

If Apple or anybody come out with a good revenue earner, why should they open it up to other vendors? Doesn't make a good business model. They're a company, not a charity, and other music players are available....you have choice. Excercise it.

(I also say that about Microsoft, to an extent, but Microsoft are different in that in some markets they do have a virtual monopoly so do need regulation.)

If you don't like the way something work,s write a better OS for it or buy a different manufacturer's device. Linux runs on the iPod nano :)

Since Sony added mp3 playback, they are a good option. If you have a Sony camera, you can hook the walkman up to it and it will copy your photos onto it's hard-drive. Useful.

Sony's DAT machines don't play mp3, it's PCM digitial audio only. Their MD units do now, but only the net md units and you have to go through sonicstage's many layers of re-coding to get the ATRAC file, so you're converting one lossy format into another. And as for Sony's DRM :evil: :evil: :evil:

Richard

Edited March 1, 2006 by fluffcat1

[Guest nevawlkalone]

You kidding, right? Risk probability goes up when you add more components. It's much easier for me to not lose my one phone that to keep track of 4 or 5 different devices.

Plus, lose data, never! You are syncing your phone with ActiveSync, right?

Yes. But there are also many devices far better than the iPod for playing music, and they are mostly cheaper than the iPod.

Since Sony added mp3 playback, they are a good option. If you have a Sony camera, you can hook the walkman up to it and it will copy your photos onto it's hard-drive. Useful.

The creative ones are pretty good as well. None of this digital restrictions management limiting what you can do with the music you paid for. It's simply a drive and you copy the music onto it. No iTunes, no nonsense. You can carry data and copy it to any PC without needing drivers. Drivers who's sole purpose is to restrict what you can do with your own propetry. Apple obfuscate the file system on the iPod, so even if you hack your way in, the files are inaccessible. Utter nonsense. I buy gadgets for MY use. Not someone elses list of things that they decide to allow me. And on numerous occassions "updates" to iTunes have removed functionality. Apples refusal to allow anyone else to sell iPod compatible media has given them an almost complete monopoly on digital media downloads. Apple only get away with what they do because they are the little guy. If Microsoft pulled these sort of stunts they would be in court faster than you can say "bundled services".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have three devices and havnt lost any yet.....

Dont loose data...go home and plug whatever i need into my pc and sync designated folders....easy

THats the thing though...its the best one out there really....the functions are easy...the playback options are great...it can do everything that sony and creative can do....and a few more

As for the sony MP3 player, it was more expensive than my iPOD and had less features, like video playback....and small memory capacity...same applies to the creative....

I have no problems with iTUNES on my pc...i love it...more so than media player.The interface is soooo muc easier to use than media player and its easier to sync with devices.....

Yewah theyt have the monopoly of the range but they good at it....bar pocket pc's and smartphones to some extent, no other device can play full movies with out freezing/skipping etc

And they cant be as bad as your making out because its made apple billions and making old Bill feel quite threghtened...so much so they are in talks to release there own with the same so called "restrictions"

ANd these restrictions are part of the LAW and Copyright and Confidentiallity...ie u buying a cd and putting it on your ZEN and giving it to an office of 200 people etc....

[Guest fraser]

Sharepod.exe allows you to bypass DRM / itunes.

It's illegal third party software that will need upgrading for each iTunes upgrade. There is no guarantee that it won't be completely locked out in future, in fact I think that is pretty likely.

I don't agree with the argument that apple 'get away' with what they do as they are the 'little guy'. Look at their sales figures for ipod / itunes. They don't have dominance on a Microsoft scale, but they are successful. It's just market protectinism on their part and I can fully understand it although it does irritate me slightly, and there are ways around it.

Microsoft get consistently slated because of their desktop PC marketshare. Apple actually have a higher market share for portable media than Microsoft have on operating systems. And at least with the Microsoft stuff other companies can sell software for the system. No one can sell software (music/video) for the iPod except Apple.

That is quite possibly illegal and is most definately anti-competative and morally wrong. Expect some court cases to decide this within a year or two.

Microsoft get into trouble because they bundle / muscle in on areas outside their core products that people purchase, to restrict / limit / disrupt competition in those other aeras, eg I.E with windoze, and I believe apple *is* coming to grief over iTunes reliance on installing Quicktime -  unless you are careful installing / updating iTunes you get Quicktime set as the default player for movies etc  :evil:

Most media software does that file association warfare. It's only in the past year or so, since Microsoft were forced to add "set program access and defaults" by the US DOJ, that software media players are more fair with the consumer. I have to admit, the iTunes/Quicktime bundle really annoyed me; they hide the non-iTunes version away so it's hard to find. That's the behaviour I'd expect from Real, not Apple.

Apple should get into trouble for not allowing others to sell media for their player. That is exactly what you say about Microsoft, i.e. using their market share of the player market to dominate the media marketplace.

If Apple or anybody come out with a good revenue earner, why should they open it up to other vendors? Doesn't make a good business model.

The world does not exist to make companies money. You have NO RIGHT to making a profit. You should compete in the marketplace fairly.

They're a company, not a charity, and other music players are available....you have choice. Excercise it.

No you don't, not if you want to stay legal. It is illegal to convert music to another format and some music industry executives have been making a effort to point this out recently. They are adding software to CD-audio disks to stop people extracting the music and converting it to another format. So, if you own an iPod, the only legal way to get music for it is via iTunes. There is no choice to exercise here. None whatsoever.

Sony's DAT machines don't play mp3, it's PCM digitial audio only. Their MD units do now, but only the net md units and you have to go through sonicstage's many layers of re-coding to get the ATRAC file, so you're converting one lossy format into another. And as for Sony's DRM  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:

Never used DAT/MD to be honest, I went straight to CD-R. The walkman products play mp3s and the software to encode it is pretty much the same as iTunes. There isn't any multiple-layer encoding required. Unless you want to convert from MD or whatever, but both Sony and Apple products would have exactly the same issues converting to another format.

[Guest fraser]

THats the thing though...its the best one out there really....the functions are easy...the playback options are great...it can do everything that sony and creative can do....and a few more

Just plain wrong. The iPod cannot do everything that the others do. I've just explained the features that I personally would find important. There are many more.

I also do not rate the playback options. The UI is designed to be easy to use for a non-technical user. For some that is wonderful and I applaud them; Apple do know how to make a good GUI. I myself am quite technical and basic UIs just slow me down/annoy me. I don't rate it much for my own uses.

As for the sony MP3 player, it was more expensive than my iPOD and had less features, like video playback....and small memory capacity...same applies to the creative....

I'm not really a fan of the Sony one either to be honest, it is very expensive. However you are wrong on creative. They are cheaper and have more features.

I have no problems with iTUNES on my pc...i love it...more so than media player.The interface is soooo muc easier to use than media player and its easier to sync with devices.....

As a techie user, I don't want to have to import my library into some iTunes thing that I'm never going to use. I have my own media setup at home and frankly it pisses all over iTunes. It's fully web controled from any PC or my PDA on the planet and can play any media I can find a Winamp plugin for. I can stream my music to anywhere on the planet, which is very nice when I'm sitting in work. If you force me to use iTunes to get media on my device, I'll be pissed off. I just want to drag and drop a folder, what's with treating me like an idiot/thief?

.bar pocket pc's and smartphones to some extent, no other device can play full movies with out freezing/skipping etc

Apples marketing is fantastic!! Do you honestly believe that? There are many other (better) video players out there. Portable DVD players have been around for at least six years. The PSP has commercially available videos for it.

And they cant be as bad as your making out because its made apple billions and making old Bill feel quite threghtened...so much so they are in talks to release there own with the same so called "restrictions"

What's with the "restrictions" quotes? They are restrictions. They offer NOTHING to me as a user and only seek to hinder my actions. They have christened this system "Digital Rights Management" using Orwellian newspeak to make it sound like a positive. Mmmmm, "rights", like the sound of them! And Microsoft have had DRM systems for as long as Apple, if not longer. The wma/wmv formats have had it for years. The new Vista operating system uses DRM in most of it's key components for various reasons. DRM is not an Apple invention.

Ever found your parents records and given them a whirl? You can forget your children doing that with your music. Your music won't be compatible with the players of the future. And if they somehow are, your childrens devices won't have the rights to access the media. And you can forget second hand sales of albums you no longer want. If fact, forget about owning anything. With DRM, your are their bitch and you beg for permission to listen to what you have paid for everything you use it.

In fact, forget about ever owning any music ever again. You are borrowing it at best. DRM is bad bad bad and you are doing yourself and future generations a disservice by not refusing to have anything to do with it.

ANd these restrictions are part of the LAW and Copyright and Confidentiallity...ie u buying a cd and putting it on your ZEN and giving it to an office of 200 people etc....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excuse me? Wrong example to the wrong person. Go lookup the precidents set by the VHS court battles of the 80's. The same arguments were touted; why should we be allowed to record video? It's only going to be used to copy movies. "The video record is the boston strangler to the movie industry" we were told. Didn't quite work out like that, did it?

You cannot ban a feature because it has the potential to do illegal acts. If that's the case, we need to ban the WWW and the telephone network. Someone told me that criminals require oxygen to commit their crimes. Ban oxygen.

Besides, if Apple chose to not allow you access to your data because of the potential illegalities of it, how come all the other manufacturers allow this sort of thing? How come people sell multi-gig flash drivers? How come you can buy portable USB harddrives?

[Guest fluffcat1]

It's illegal third party software that will need upgrading for each iTunes upgrade. There is no guarantee that it won't be completely locked out in future, in fact I think that is pretty likely.

Utter tosh. Nothing to do with iTunes - runs independantly, and is in no way illegal. Unless they comprehensively overhaul the filesystem on every iPod it'll keep working. You don't even need iTunes installed to run it, so how exactly can an Itunes update 'lock it out'? Do you even understand how it works?

http://www.softpedia.com/get/IPOD-TOOLS/Ot.../SharePod.shtml

Apple only get away with what they do because they are the little guy.

Apple actually have a higher market share for portable media than Microsoft have on operating systems. And at least with the Microsoft stuff other companies can sell software for the system. No one can sell software (music/video) for the iPod except Apple.

Make your mind up!

Either apple are the little guy or have dominant market share - not both. As for selling music for ipods, last I checked HMV still sold CD's and there were many apps out there to rip them to an iPod....

Video, however, no-ones sorted yet :)

That is quite possibly illegal and is most definately anti-competative and morally wrong. Expect some court cases to decide this within a year or two.

[snipped ]

It is illegal to convert music to another format and some music industry executives have been making a effort to point this out recently. They are adding software to CD-audio disks to stop people extracting the music and converting it to another format.

No it isn't. Your points were mentioned recently by the RIAA - as they also see it as a problem not being able to sell DRM WMA files for iPods, but they do say it's possible to transfer from CD or *other formats* because that is what they end up doing themselves

Please provide some case law stating this is 'illegal'. Fair use is not illegal last iIchecked, and converting it to the correct format you can use is fair use....

The software they are adding to prevent ripping to the CD's is there so they can sell you again what you already own in terms of forcing you to download the music. Some albums already have mp3's of the tracks with DRM on the CD version.

Richard

[Guest nevawlkalone]

ooooo....touchy fellow arnt you fraser?

Edited March 1, 2006 by nevawlkalone

[Guest fluffcat1]

ooooo....touchy fellow arnt you fraser?

Maybe his iPod failed out of warranty? :)

Richard

[Guest nevawlkalone]

Maybe his iPod failed out of warranty?  :)

Richard

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LMAO

[Guest DAK ATTACK]

Ipods have some pros and cons like any other device but I just hate them, its like owning a nokia phone with express-on covers : too Sterotypes to me!?

I have the same dream every month of me wearing white headphones following the ipod heard.....

....I still like being the 'other device' owner chasing them like a lion!

I think Fraser has some good points and bad. Ipods are very much like the new marmite....you either love em or hate them.....hmmm perhaps smearing them with marmite might reduce the chances of scratches hmmm.

I am a sad loyal MS geek, I might not like there practises or the new vista look but in the end there products do what I want them to do, with apple ipods I just get the shakes for no reason.

I hate marmite and I bet Fraser does too!

C'mon everyone chill a bit, and remember not everyone thinks the same....so C'mon ipod owners, throw that dr who polycarb props in the bin and get a.......only joking guys.

I have edited this post too many times this morning to get rid of my 'early morning spelling' so sorry for the poor grammar etc

Edited March 2, 2006 by DAK ATTACK

[Guest fraser]

Utter tosh. Nothing to do with iTunes - runs independantly, and is in no way illegal.

It is reverse engineered and violates the US DMCA act and the EUCD (European Union Copy Directive). Both of these acts relate to reverse engineering anti-copy technology, completely banning it. Even academic use is not exempt.

Unless they comprehensively overhaul the filesystem on every iPod it'll keep working.

Nope. These hacks work on a kinda cold-war basis. The company releases an update to the API, then the hackers workaround it and release a new version. Repeat ad-nausium. If Apple don't like this, they will disable it in an update.

You don't even need iTunes installed to run it, so how exactly can an Itunes update 'lock it out'? Do you even understand how it works?

I completely understand how it works. It talks to the iPod using an unpublished private API. iTunes updates can update the iPod firmware, right? There you go. Sony have done similar with the PSP, except in their case the firmware updates to lockout the third-party hacks is bundled with game cartridges.

Either apple are the little guy or have dominant market share - not both.

They are the little guy in the IT world. My point was that if Microsoft had had the same success instead of the iPod, there would be a lot more critism.

As for selling music for ipods, last I checked HMV still sold CD's and there were many apps out there to rip them to an iPod....

That's illegal. And many CDs contain anti-rip technologies such as hidden datatracks and other breaks from the red-book cd audio standard. They are also including virus-like software to steathilly take over your PC without permission. Many secure networks have recently banned audio CDs for this reason. If the music industry could, they would stop ripping tomorrow.

Please provide some case law stating this is 'illegal'. Fair use is not illegal last iIchecked, and converting it to the correct format you can use is fair use....

It is illegal. Here is an official UK government website on the topic. There is no such thing as fair use in UK law, it's an American concept.

[Guest fraser]

ooooo....touchy fellow arnt you fraser?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nah, I just don't like being told what to do. DRM is completely anti-consumer and seeks to limit what you can do on the assumption that you are a criminal. It is a risk to future generations. Art/creative thought is based on the sharing of ideas. For example, most if not all of the Disney classics are based on public domain works. These are works which after X years fall out of copyright and can be remixed/reworked as much as you want. DRM media breaks this by limiting access, even if it is out of copyright. We are losing rights/capabilities that we used to have, and that's not cool. Pop down to your library and check out the old recodings that have been archived. Fast forward 50 years; how is the iTunes download of Britney going to work? Granted Ms Spears isn't exactly archive material, but music is our life and our culture. We are selling it up the river for a song.

The iPod epitomises all that right now.

Don't get me wrong, it's a very pretty toy. But as the BBC says, "other alternatives are available" and in this case, they are usually better.

[Guest fluffcat1]

It is reverse engineered and violates the US DMCA act and the EUCD (European Union Copy Directive). Both of these acts relate to reverse engineering anti-copy technology, completely banning it. Even academic use is not exempt.

Where's your evidence it's reverse engineered?....I have the source code ta.

Nope. These hacks work on a kinda cold-war basis. The company releases an update to the API, then the hackers workaround it and release a new version. Repeat ad-nausium. If Apple don't like this, they will disable it in an update.

I completely understand how it works. It talks to the iPod using an unpublished private API. iTunes updates can update the iPod firmware, right? There you go.

*iTunes* can't update firmware at all. *iPod updater* can update the firmware *if* you register, download, and install it. And you can flash back to an older version. To stop sharepod.exe working they would have to stop the iPods showing up as logical drives, from my understanding it rebuilds the database of mp4 songs from the files viewable on the iPod in windows. None of this hidden application interface cloak and dagger reverese engneering stuff you seem to think.

It is illegal. Here is an official UK government website on the topic. There is no such thing as fair use in UK law, it's an American concept.

So buyng a CD and copying it to your portable device is illegal!?! Sh1t! Somebody call the cops!....hope you haven't done this...

Your original points I took issue with were:

"The iPod is locked down and can't get music from other sources than iTunes" -it isn't and you can.

"The software that opens it up is 'illegal'" - it isn't.

"Apple can stop it if they want to" - well I ran the most recent iPod update from January and sharepod.exe still works.

"Ripping CD's you've bought from HMV is 'illegal'" - depends on your point of view, but I take it you've puchased digital downloads of all your music then? I'm not going to argue for or against this as it's a valid source of music for an iPod which was my original point - but you do seem keen to criminalise most of the people interested in this topic.

p.s Your link is 30 months or so out of date according to the text at the bottom of the page. And when did I mention the UK? We have HMV's abroad. A better link to quote would have been something to do with the European Union Copyright Directive (EUCD) as this superceded UK law.

Richard

[Guest nevawlkalone]

Holy crap i dont get any of this DMCA and EUCD

Im with fluffact1 on this...ripping CD's into another format iss not illegal as copying it to a Windows Mobile Device changes it to WMA and a CD is CDA.... so that that point gone

I have the latest version of firware on my POD and sharepod.exe still works

Buying a CD a copying it to your device is not illegal it only becomes illegal when you copy it and re-distribute it to others with out permission..which you will never get off the artist as it will do them out of their green!

iPODS kick ass...there is nothing stopping them being used on other pc's with out itunes so long as share.exe works (and then thats only for music...i can still be used as as hard drive...or mine can) after using different hardware *in my opinion* ipods are the best..why does it have to be technical? all you wana do is listen to a few tunes..not re mix an entire album with new cross fades and re balanced equalisers....

over all....with the help of this thread i got what i wanted and am extremely happy with it so bobbins to your *cant use it to do this and its not technical that* (nbo offence by the way) but if i want music arouinfd the world..ill take my iPOD, and if i ever need to start steaming stuff then i will look into it but atm the iPOD does the trick

[Guest fraser]

Where's your evidence it's reverse engineered?....I have the source code ta.

How else could it be written? Apple haven't published the API, the only way to figure it out is to decode how it works. Illegal.

*iTunes* can't update firmware at all. *iPod updater* can update the firmware *if* you register, download, and install it. And you can flash back to an older version. To stop sharepod.exe working they would have to stop the iPods showing up as logical drives, from my understanding it rebuilds the database of mp4 songs from the files viewable on the iPod in windows. None of this hidden application interface cloak and dagger reverese engneering stuff you seem to think.

OK, that's nice to hear and I guess I was wrong there. However, I still wouldn't put money on it always working.

So buyng a CD and copying it to your portable device is illegal!?! Sh1t! Somebody call the cops!....hope you haven't done this...

Of course I had. I'd converted my entire cd collection to mp3 long before there were portable players. My behaviour is based on morality, not legality. I could not care less about many laws, most of which I'd rather not list... :)

"The iPod is locked down and can't get music from other sources than iTunes" -it isn't and you can.

Not legally and the music producers are taking steps to stop you from doing so. They want you to buy the CD and the iTunes download. Look up the software packages XCP and MediaMax. These are virus-like applications that install without your permission and take steps to prevent you removing/detecting them. They use rootkit techniques in order to completely stealth the installation and install very deep hooks into your operating system. Kernel level drivers. These tools are a massive securty risk and were exploits available within days of the discovery of the tools. Sony took massive flak over this in the USA and is presently being sued by several state officials and private class-action lawsuits. Even the Department for Homeland Security has spoken out against them and warned people to avoid them.

Their sole purpose is to stop you ripping the CD that they are hidden on. Any steps you take to get around the restrictions fall foul of the EUCD or US DMCA. This is a huge joke as technically it's illegal to temporarilly turn of autorun by pressing shift as you insert the disk. "Shift key ruled illegal" was the kind of the headline when this was passed.

I don't make the laws. Please don't shoot the messenger. The only way to get these crazy laws off the books is through awareness.

"Ripping CD's you've bought from HMV is 'illegal'" - depends on your point of view, but I take it you've puchased digital downloads of all your music then?

Hell no! Have you been reading what I said? Digital Restrictions Management is nasty and should not be supported. It's like the original divx product (not the codec that borrowed the name), where DVDs would only play 3 or 4 times before expiring. Where is the benefit to us, the consumer?

My biggest issue here is that illegal downloads of music are technically superiour to the legitimate options. With mp3 you can convert to anything, or you can even get lossless flac/ape rips. I cannot listen to iTunes/Napster downloads on my phone, my hi-fi or my xbox media centre (which in itself is technically illegal to possess!!)

but you do seem keen to criminalise most of the people interested in this topic.

No, it's the music industry that is criminalising people. Hell, last year a top TV exec said that if you go to the bathroom during the commercials, you are stealing television!! :D

I am totally against this sort of thing and I dislike iTunes as it's slowly boiling the water that us frogs are sitting in. If nothing is done to hold them back, we'll be paying per listen for all our media before long. We'll need different licenses for our portable and car audio versions.

Your link is 30 months or so out of date according to the text at the bottom of the page. And when did I mention the UK? We have HMV's abroad. A better link to quote would have been something to do with the European Union Copyright Directive (EUCD)  as this superceded UK law.

I mentioned the EUCD in another post, yes I am very aware of it. I am also aware that it does nothing to protect consumer rights and it's measures exist to protect the profitablity of those who bribed (sorry, gave campaign donations) to those pushed through the legislation. It was pushed through on a bed of lies backed up with more damn statistics of questionable origin.

The EUCD states that it is illegal to circumvent copy protection under any circumstance. This marks a departure from previous laws were limited copyright infringment was allowed for research and academic purposes. I could copy and paste lyrics from a song, or include a 30 second clip with no problems in order to write an article on e.g. a genre of music. However, if the CD comes with any protection whatsoever, I cannot use the media for anything. Nor can I attempt to extract the media. Ever. Even when the copyright expires.

I am against these laws 100% and have been for years. Right now millions of people are wasting money paying for music that they will not ever own. It won't play on their childrens players and it has zero resale value. Did you know that the music industry tried to make second-hand music shops illegal many years ago? They've finally got that wish. A guy tried to sell a song he bought on iTunes as a thought experiment. In the end he had to hand over his whole account. Technically that is against UK consumer law (you cannot restrict resale), but this is yet to be tested in court.

To summerise, iPods are OK, look nice, but there are better (and worse) ones out there. iTunes is something to be avoided with all your heart.

[Guest fraser]

Holy crap i dont get any of this DMCA and  EUCD

Then it was a success. If the public knew the implications, it would never have been passed. Many of us tried to fight it; complete waste of time.

Im with fluffact1 on this...ripping CD's into another format iss not illegal as copying it to a Windows Mobile Device changes it to WMA and a CD is CDA.... so that that point gone

The format change has nothing to do with the law. It is illegal reproduction. I know, it's a stupid law!!

which you will never get off the artist as it will do them out of their green!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If it were the artists benefiting from these laws, their wouldn't be so many people fighting it. Fact is, most artists get hardly anything from CD sales; their income comes from merchandise and touring. The music industry is like the old canal network. They don't need to exist anymore, but those still involved are fighting hard to stay relevant in some way. Imagine if the horse drawn cart industry had succeeded in passing the anti-car laws they wanted 100 years ago (red-flag laws etc). This is the situation now with the internet.

[Guest DAK ATTACK]

Are you not breaking any laws when the rip a CD for your own use?

I thought as long as you say the files/contents was used for yourself and the original content was purchased by yourself then your oki doki.

[Guest nevawlkalone]

The hole point of this thread was to for people to tell me if iPODs where value for money...not for you to be ranting on about howw crap apple is and their stopping you copying cds and how the law suck and legality of puting music on a portable device!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[Guest nevawlkalone]

The format change has nothing to do with the law. It is illegal reproduction. I know, it's a stupid law!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True but copying music for personal use requires to change the format! Which is inturn the same as illegal reproduction because you are reproducing the cd to go onto a device in a different format!

Edited March 2, 2006 by nevawlkalone

[Guest nevawlkalone]

Are you not breaking any laws when the rip a CD for your own use?

I thought as long as you say the files/contents was used for yourself and the original content was purchased by yourself then your oki doki.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you purchase the cd and only rip/burn/copy a cd for personal use then you are safe...its when you do this and then give the tracks to soemone else it becomes illegal....

[Guest fluffcat1]

So these new iPods I've heard about - any good then?.......

[Guest fraser]

If you purchase the cd and only rip/burn/copy a cd for personal use then you are safe...its when you do this and then give the tracks to soemone else it becomes illegal....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Care to back that up with reference to some laws? Just because you read it in a forum on the web doesn't make it true. What part of DMCA/EUCD's "you must not defeat copy protection" don't you get? Go and check the law if you don't believe me, but please do not repeat bad information in an authorative tone. Especially when you are wrong. Pop by the EFF website for lots of info on the topic. Maybe you should point out that all of their campaigns to change the law are pointless as this sort of thing is legal! :)

You won't get prosecuted for this as you aren't going to be caught. However, when it was announced that George Bush had an iPod, some tried to have him charged to demonstrate how silly this stuff is.

As strange as it may seem, I'm looking out for YOUR interests at the moment.

The hole point of this thread was to for people to tell me if iPODs where value for money...not for you to be ranting on about howw crap apple is

That was in response to folk saying how wonderful iTunes is. It's not, it's a threat to free expression. We are talking about the industry that wanted to ban the VHS. We must now get the media industries permission to develop new hardware. They also seek to "close the analog hole", meaning that it will be illegal to develop ANY media technology that did not implement their restrictions. Heard of TIVO? No way in hell would that be allowed to exist now as a new product. They actually tried to ban it, and with the currently proposed laws they don't even need to ban these things in future. It cannot exist without their permission. Ironically, the iPod itself would never exist; the first mp3 manufacturers were also sued.

And this board doesn't exist for your own personal desires. If a topic strays from the original intent and is still getting traffic, deal with it. Ignore it if you must. You bought an iPod and are very happy with it it seems. What's the problem?

Finally, I've said nothing against Apple. I'm speaking out against DRM, the iPods nasty legacy. Neither Microsoft or Apple invented DRM and in honesty neither of them want it. It is responsible for most customer support costs and is nothing but hastle for them. However, the recording industry refuses to deal without it, as they assume you and I are thieves.

[Guest Pondrew]

So these new iPods I've heard about - any good then?.......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:)

[Guest fluffcat1]

As strange as it may seem, I'm looking out for YOUR interests at the moment.

That was in response to folk saying how wonderful iTunes is.

You're the one who brought *iTunes* up. This was a question about *iPods*. Although apple's marketing claim they 'go together' they don't *have* to...

To quote a previous post:....

Late to the discussion, but I would not recommend an iPod, unless you value fashion as more important than cost/functionality. If I were to buy a mp3 player, it would need to :

- work as a USB drive on any modern PC with no drivers required

- allow you to put music on and off without forcing you to use some deliberately-crippled software

- allow you to store other data and use as a key-drive.

- good battery life

The ASUS manufactured ipod shuffle using the sigmatel chip does all of the above.

The FOXCONN manufactured 'traditional' ipods can be used with sharepod.exe to move music without itunes interferring. As for battery life.... :roll:

Richard

And this board doesn't exist for your own personal desires. If a topic strays from the original intent and is still getting traffic, deal with it. Ignore it if you must. You bought an iPod and are very happy with it it seems. What's the problem?

You are the one twisting the posts to be an Anti-DRM, anti-itunes topic! And you seem to change your tone frequently, telling us that stuff is 'illegal' and shouldn't be done ( ripping CD's) then admitting to doing it yourself?!?!

So how many sites sell song's in Apple's AAC format ( which last I checked was an open format - I have other sigmatel based players that can play it) ? Other than iTunes? So if you buy a song elsewhere on the web, what do you need to do? Convert it! What is the by product of that conversion? No DRM...

Finally, I've said nothing against Apple. I'm speaking out against DRM, the iPods nasty legacy.

Must've been someone else logged in as you then?....

And at least with the Microsoft stuff other companies can sell software for the system. No one can sell software (music/video) for the iPod except Apple.

That is quite possibly illegal and is most definately anti-competative and morally wrong. Expect some court cases to decide this within a year or two.

I have to admit, the iTunes/Quicktime bundle really annoyed me; they hide the non-iTunes version away so it's hard to find. That's the behaviour I'd expect from Real, not Apple.

Apple should get into trouble for not allowing others to sell media for their player.

DRM isn't the iPod's nasty legacy, it's actually DAT's legacy in the form of the original DRM known as 'SCMS' - 'Seriel Copy Management System' that controls the digital reproduction of music through the P/Q carrier in PCM audio, from way back in 1988.... introduced on the consumer DAT, then DCC and MD (1991) and more recently (1996) home audio CDR burners at the request of record companies.

Richard

[Guest Pondrew]

Is this 'discussion' still going on? Time to leave it I think folks.

Topic locked as it went off topic a LONG time ago and shows no sign of getting back to it...