Guest Paul (MVP) Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Just lately, i've been playing around with ROM cooking and things on my device - regulars will remember that I even posted a how-to guide on backing up, rebuilding and restoring your SPV M700 ROM. There's no doubt that up until now, playing with ROMs has been very 'underground', not least due to the fact that a lot of the same tools that can be used for totally legitimate purposes (as above) can be used for other more shady activities - that is activities that are more frowned upon by networks / manufacturers / Microsoft. My question to you, the community, is 'Can legal ROM discussion work?' I am picturing an area, to discuss ROM tweaking etc., with very clear rules and guidelines around what can / can't be discussed, what can / can't be posted... generally along the lines of likely legality. I'm by no means decided whether to have such an area or not... but I'd appreciate people's thoughts, and indeed how much interest there is in this... :rolleyes: P PS Touch users: Here's why such discussion could be so useful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest emyllis Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Well for what it's worth, I use your site and xda developers all the time, this for the friendly discussions and xda to get roms etc. The thing that drew me to the smartphones/ppc's in teh first instance was the fact that they're so customisable and you can poke amongst the innards as it were, tweaking until ones heart is content. Other phones simply don't offer this feature! I've used XDA and now win4mobile loads recently to try out different roms, getting a system set up just as I would like, and would appreciate an area here where discussions/developments could take place. The only note I would have of caution is the way xda developers has gone a bit downhill with a flood of newbies asking really basic or inappropriate questions every 10 mins, which has soured what was and still is a great website. So go for it, but maybe could you have to "prove" yourself before you can join, like have 50 posts? Something to stop newbies joining just to ask a stupid question; or only to have the profile to read only for a month? Something to stop the influx of stoopid qns which i fear will get asked! Hope that's of use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul (MVP) Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 I think it will be different on MoDACo, tho, because discussing things such as 'black' will be off limits. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MARKUKCOUK Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 I think it will be different on MoDACo, tho, because discussing things such as 'black' will be off limits. P Then the whole thing is pointless surely? What would we be allowed to discuss then? I'm confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul (MVP) Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Discuss editing released ROMs. e.g. 'I have a M700, and I want to remove x from the rom and add y' Discussion of updates not released for devices (e.g. putting WM6 on a Hermes) is always going to be an area that is off limits legally, agreed? P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul (MVP) Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 I appreciate people will still go to XDA-Devs for their fix on some stuff, but I think there are people out there who just want to optimise what they have... P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GordonTGopher Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 The big problem here is sharing ROMs. Discussion about what is possible is great, but the value of XDA-Dev is access to the ROMs and associated tools. Linking to ROM downl;oads is (AIUI) on the edge of legality ( and I didn't say which side of the edge I think it is). XDA have had to take down most of there FTP stuff and now rely on the filesharing sites. As has been pointed out XDA is suffering from a flood of newbies and "You bricked my device"accusations. The average level of knowledge here seems a little lower than XDA (Although there are many notable exceptions) I think the reputation of the site could suffer if lots of people have problems. Would the site still get access to review devices and support from the plus companies if they were seen to cross over to the dark side? I'd suggest not opening a topic on this, but maybe a read only news section where news of notable / milestone releases could be announced for those of interest, with a LARGE disclaimer about the risk of bricking at the top, even better a restricted area where poeple have to agree to a disclaimer before getting access? Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul (MVP) Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 A disclaimer is definitely a good idea. Linking to ROM downloads is not acceptable either, but there are better ways of doing it anyway. Let's take an example: - I take my Touch ROM, and hack it to give more free memory - I want to share how I did it - I post on the site - I also quite fancy making it easier for others - I'M NOT ALLOWED TO POST THE ROM - Instead I post a patch file (PPF?) that takes the ROM the user dumped themselves, and patches it to my version ready to flash back to the device No ROMs posted, how to included, smaller download, and only people with the actual device will have the source dump to apply the patch to. Could work? P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Confucious Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Because ROM discussions can easily stray into grey areas and there is already a triving forum for discussing ROMs (on which I am one of thos noobs who asks silly questions...) I think youtr ROM hacking skills could be used over there and the two areas kept distinct. i always point people with ROM questions on here over there and vice versa, if you were having partial (ie strictly legal as opposed to grey area) discussions here I think it would get confusing. You are already known over there, Paul, would you be happy posting your ROM knowledge over ther? Or do you want to keep it all 'in house'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul (MVP) Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 I think there are people here who probably don't (and never will) visit xda-devs, yet are still potentially interested in basic legalish ROM tweaking... P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest crazyc Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 A disclaimer is definitely a good idea. Linking to ROM downloads is not acceptable either, but there are better ways of doing it anyway. Let's take an example: - I take my Touch ROM, and hack it to give more free memory - I want to share how I did it - I post on the site - I also quite fancy making it easier for others - I'M NOT ALLOWED TO POST THE ROM - Instead I post a patch file (PPF?) that takes the ROM the user dumped themselves, and patches it to my version ready to flash back to the device No ROMs posted, how to included, smaller download, and only people with the actual device will have the source dump to apply the patch to. Could work? P Am kind of in two minds about this. I peruse a number of PDA site for various things - Although there are some technical things here, I tend to need to go elsewhere for that as I have passed over to the dark side when it comes to ROMs. But, Modaco is a well moderated (no unnecessary grovelling intended) and friendly, relaxed, polite site. And it does have some helpful hints and people. For the darker arts it is necessary to visit elsewhere and brave the flamewars and recriminations that have already been mentioned (all this sounds like a movie plot), but I still come back here because I like it, and occassionally get to share some of the (limited) knoweldge I pick up along the way. I think, upon reflection, that your idea could work well, as many people want the simple fixes and do not have time to peruse thousands of posts etc. Requests for these simple fixes often get sharp replies over at XDA. The more i think about it, the more I feel that this would maybe address a useful gap in the market so to speak. So, after all that waffle I think it might be worth a go. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Confucious Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Maybe you are right - do you mind us poinnting people over there tho? I've always seen the forums as very distinct and there are experts over there so discussions could get fractured with part there and part here, at the moment it is simple, if it's to do with ROMs I send people there, I would be reluctant to do so if they were being discussed here, it's your call but it does blur what was a distinct line between the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GordonTGopher Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 - Instead I post a patch file (PPF?) that takes the ROM the user dumped themselves, and patches it to my version ready to flash back to the device No ROMs posted, how to included, smaller download, and only people with the actual device will have the source dump to apply the patch to. Could work? P I'd not heard of a *.PPF to be honest! This could work. Looking at the only device I have any knowledge of at all - the Wizard how would you cover differences between G3 / G4 and CID unlocking etc. ? Does a PPF get round this? I think the idea of you spreading your knowledge at places like XDA and keeping this site for the (excellent) reviews, software etc would be a better idea, but appreciate you need to keep the site growing and topical to keep up the traffic. I suspect the admin workload of keeping the discussion within site rules could be heavy, certainly until the "boundaries" were understood and "grey" areas ruled in or out. I do think it's great that you are debating this area though. Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MARKUKCOUK Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Discuss editing released ROMs. e.g. 'I have a M700, and I want to remove x from the rom and add y' Discussion of updates not released for devices (e.g. putting WM6 on a Hermes) is always going to be an area that is off limits legally, agreed? P I agree that you've made it clear, but don't really agree with this "line drawing". As you admit, none of it is really legal, but I honestly don't think MS are that bothered about WM6 on Hermes (as an example). What I'm saying is.... I think its an all or nothing policy really. You will always run into problems by saying "x is banned" when x is a major major part of the community. Modaco already has a few threads that, while not directly linking to ROMS, have discussion on Black Shadow and the other ROMs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tsutton Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Let's take an example: - I take my Touch ROM, and hack it to give more free memory - I want to share how I did it - I post on the site - I also quite fancy making it easier for others - I'M NOT ALLOWED TO POST THE ROM - Instead I post a patch file (PPF?) that takes the ROM the user dumped themselves, and patches it to my version ready to flash back to the device No ROMs posted, how to included, smaller download, and only people with the actual device will have the source dump to apply the patch to. I do like that idea. However we need someone (a Mod?) who needs to be very strict and monitor all postings and remove/warn if needed if someone posted a link to full & tweaked ROM. As long as they post the Official ROM with some links to the edited's How-to so they can do it themselves, then this could work. But obviously we can't tell them where to get the newest ROM from (i.e. unofficial WM6 on unsupported phone). But at the end of the day, it might take up a lot of work to keep everything legal. We don't want Microsoft to send their men in suits to Modaco just like they did with XDA Dev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Doctor Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 However we need someone (a Mod?) who needs to be very strict and monitor all postings and remove/warn if needed if someone posted a link to full & tweaked ROM. /me waves at tsutton :rolleyes: Personally, I think the whole ROM customisation area is a good idea. I have accounts both here and at XDA-Developers and believe that this can work so long as it's made user friendly, simple and with minimal risk to your device. Over at XDA-Dev's as you said, you only need to whisper "How do I..." before 10 senior members jump on you and scream at you to read the wiki or use the search function. XDA-Developers is more of a resource than a website that tells you HOW to do stuff for yourself. The guides and how-to's in the ROM area should cut through the technical crap and focus on getting it done as simply and as easily as possible with minimal risk to the user. Alot like mrvanx guides, but focusing on customising your own ROM rather than flashing it. ROM customisation needn't be illegal as Paul said, at the end of the day, its taking tweaking and customising our device that one step further so that it will work the way we want it to right after a hard reset and not go through the lengthy post-hard reset setup. Also, if you extract and build your own ROM, you can free up that wasted storage space in the ROMs, eg. a standard hermes has around 47mb free. If you dump the ROM, modify it yourself, and then reconstruct and flash it back, you can liberate up to 15mb of storage space. The PPF files are a good idea, they would be small enough to attach to posts rather than having to rely on file sharing services such as rapidshare and the like. Looking at the only device I have any knowledge of at all - the Wizard. How would you cover differences between G3 / G4 and CID unlocking etc. ? Does a PPF get round this? The PPF will only be intended for a specific ROM. So a topic will consist of: ROM its intended for (for example, RUU_Prodigy_2210206_22102109_021911_TMO_UK_WWE_Ship.exe, the official T-Mobile UK AKU2 update) What the PPF does to your ROM (what it adds/removes) How to go apply the PPF to your ROM The PPF file attached Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul (MVP) Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 *The ROM patch idea is just my random thoughts and untested :rolleyes: P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest magic_peanuts Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 I think there are people here who probably don't (and never will) visit xda-devs, yet are still potentially interested in basic legalish ROM tweaking... P I think you should stay well clear. AFAIK any ROM tweaking of any kind invalidates your warranty and for me that just doesn't fit with 'clean living' MoDaCo. Anyone that is remotely interested in ROM tweaking soon learns about XDA - Devs and yes, it's a bit of a hostile forum for a noobie but it's all there if people do actually use the search properly. I'm all for ROM tweaking, including the darker side, but I just don't think it has a place on MoDaCo. On the other hand, if you do go head with it and need a new moderator...:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul (MVP) Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 As long as people know they are invalidating their warranty, is that a problem? And does a ROM tweak actually invalidate a hardware warranty? P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Doctor Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 As long as people know they are invalidating their warranty, is that a problem? And does a ROM tweak actually invalidate a hardware warranty? P It won't matter if they backup their ROM as per your guide Paul :rolleyes: So long as you always have a backup to roll back to, it won't really matter what you do to your phone, so long as you don't permanently brick it :P Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drblow Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 I am a bit confused. I don't understand how the downloading/discussion of cooked ROMs can be so open at one forum, but so 'covert' in others? If one forum is openly doing this then what's the point of another forum jumping on the bandwagon but enforcing a bunch of rules for discussion. Having just flashed my phone with the 'black' ROM I can safely say it's the best thing I have ever done to my M3100. The fact that I can go to another forum where I don't have to mind my p's & q's when discussing this, makes it seem a bit pointless to then also have an area of modaco where I would have to watch very closely what I was saying. My opinion is that if it can be discussed then great ... it should be discussed, openly. If not then what's the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul (MVP) Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Nut not everyone wants to downoad and flash a random ROM on their device - some, like myself, want to tweak and get the best out of the shipping ROMs... perhaps in a more 'MoDaCo' environment than elsewhere? P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drblow Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 I just don't see the difference. Surely tweaking a shipped ROM just a little bit or however you want to put it, is just the same as giving a ROM a full overhaul? Is it just the posting & downloading of these ROMs that is illegal? If it is illegal then how can anyone get away with it? If it's not, or if it's a grey area, then what's the problem discussing it openly? I just feel like it would be a fruitless gesture to have discussion threads where people were constantly worried about breaching forum rules, and talking around subjects that everyone knows rightly are slightly controversial. To be honest my opinion is either embrace the new ROM culture in all it's glorious copyright infringement, or don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul (MVP) Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 I just don't see the difference. Surely tweaking a shipped ROM just a little bit or however you want to put it, is just the same as giving a ROM a full overhaul? No no no... putting some of my favourite applications MYSELF into my shipping ROM is a million miles away from downloading a cooked ROM with a completely different OS version stuffed with various apps that may or may not be legal. (IMHO YMMV etc. etc.) Is it just the posting & downloading of these ROMs that is illegal? If it is illegal then how can anyone get away with it? If it's not, or if it's a grey area, then what's the problem discussing it openly? Come on, just because people 'get away with it' it doesn't mean it's legal! I just feel like it would be a fruitless gesture to have discussion threads where people were constantly worried about breaching forum rules, and talking around subjects that everyone knows rightly are slightly controversial. To be honest my opinion is either embrace the new ROM culture in all it's glorious copyright infringement, or don't. Well that's the kind of debate this post was supposed to ignite :rolleyes: I am of the opinion that there are ROM editing / cooking etc. topics that probably do have a place on MoDaCo, and those that don't. Things like this for example - http://www.modaco.com/Pauland39s-Guide-to-...ze-t256280.html - are quite different from many topics about ROM editing, but it IS still ROM editing. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest looeee Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 This post too MoDaCo Dude Splash/Boot Screen is quite different from many topics about ROM editing, but it IS still ROM editing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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