Guest Paul (MVP) Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 I've just had a note from Florin_m of imei-check re: the Kaiser unlock they have been working on, and it's bad news i'm afraid for shackled T-Mobile users et al... imei-check will not be releasing a public Kaiser unlock, and have released the statement below: There's no doubt this is an issue that's been bubbling under for a while now in the 'underground', but it looks like things are coming to a head. What's everyone's thoughts? Of course we only have one side of the story, but if there IS IP from imei-check's commercial developments in the 'free solutions', then that's not on. I'll see if I can get a response from pof @ xda-developers on the issue! P [Edit: Rebuttal from POF at xda-developers: (warning, strong language, http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=1572884)] (via: http://www.imei-check.co.uk/kaiserunlock.php) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest magic_peanuts Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 As someone that has used both the paid IMEI-Check unlocks and then the free XDA Dev's one for various devices over the years, I wasn't aware until last year that pof et al were actually cracking the IMEI-Check software for their own purposes. Accordingly what they are pushing out is nothing more than IP theft and should florin and his team wish to proceed with legal action against them they would appear to have a reasonably strong case. I for one will continue to use IMEI-Check for future unlocks, conscience clear that the guys that did the work are getting the financial rewards due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Syphon Filter Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 As someone that has used both the paid IMEI-Check unlocks and then the free XDA Dev's one for various devices over the years, I wasn't aware until last year that pof et al were actually cracking the IMEI-Check software for their own purposes. Accordingly what they are pushing out is nothing more than IP theft and should florin and his team wish to proceed with legal action against them they would appear to have a reasonably strong case. I for one will continue to use IMEI-Check for future unlocks, conscience clear that the guys that did the work are getting the financial rewards due. Amen to that. pof & co. should be ashamed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FloatingFatMan Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 (edited) If the allegation IS true, then I doubt POF & Co will be ashamed. Sorry they were caught perhaps, but not ashamed. Afterall, if it's true, they weren't ashamed about stealing it in the first place, were they? Edited October 9, 2007 by FloatingFatMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul (MVP) Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 Eh? 'the software' in question is the unlocker, that you have to download to do the unlock! P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zone-MR Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 I'm in two minds about this. On one hand, I generally see reverse engineering as an ethically legitimate (and legal) method of learning about software. It's how progress gets made - people dissect existing solutions and look for ways to improve them. Florin has reverse engineered the HTC's code, to discover its workings and remove its restrictions. Now other's have reversed engineered Florin's code, to discover its workings and remove its restrictions. It's all good. Enforcing artificial monopolies where people are not free to dissect existing ideas and build upon them hinders technological progress, and is bad for society as a whole. On the other hand, assuming Florin's side of the story is correct, we're not dealing with a case where someone re-used the same *technique* in order to release a competitive solution, but actually released modules copied from Florin's solution, without fully understanding how they operate. Legal issues aside, this is certainly on flaky ethical grounds. Gripe: I really wish people would learn to differentiate between copyright infringement and theft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nuttyphilt Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 One point worth making is that T-Mobile will unlock a Vario III for £15 whereas the imei-check solutions are £20, and I believe they'll do it at any point in your contract. For Vario III users it obviously makes sense to go the supported route and get it from T-Mobile... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Confucious Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 imei-check didn't release the unlocker for the Athena either but Olipro soon unlocked it. I'm sure someone would have hacked it anyway but if what florin is saying and they are using his code then that is theft. There are some very clever people out there - florin being one of them. He makes money from it and does a great job, I have used him in the past, for someone to develop there own unlocking method is one thing but to steal someone elses is IMHO not on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mysterious Stranger Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 (edited) I'll see if I can get a response from pof @ xda-developers on the issue! P Shouldn't you have tried already before providing an outlet for inflammatory comments from Florin? Seems a little one sided just quoting a post with no counterpoint. Is this a balanced journalistic article or propaganda?.... Do you not have a duty to check facts before posting news, not asking for a comment after you post the story? By allowing someone to call someone else a theif with no visible proof in this forum ( and actually posting the quote yourself!) are you not opening yourself to legal action against you by the subject of the story? Just curious, don't fully understand this web publishing lark.... M.S Edit - Can Florin PROVE he had to sack 2 people because of POF's alleged stealing? Seems rather sensationalist to me. There are free versions of most of the unlockers IMEI check sell. AFAIK Pof has only been involved with the hermes unlocker, were IMEI-checks revenues so dependant on hermes unlocks that 2 people got sacked when the free version came out?. Hmmmmmmm...... Edited October 9, 2007 by Mysterious Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr.Clark Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 imei-check didn't release the unlocker for the Athena either but Olipro soon unlocked it. I'm sure someone would have hacked it anyway but if what florin is saying and they are using his code then that is theft. Just a quick question - how legal is the IMEI unlocking software? I only ask because it sounds on the one hand like a method for subverting something put in place by the people you took a contract out with when you bought the device. As proved with the Apple/iPhone thing in the US at the moment, it appears to be OK for the operator to brick your phone through an update if you've modified it away from the state you bought it in. Thus using an unlocker breaks the contract. So if the software is illegal, is stealing it morally or legally wrong? Just wondering ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul (MVP) Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 Mysterious Stranger, if you want to be like that... http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread...0819&page=6 ;) P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul (MVP) Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 By allowing someone to call someone else a theif with no visible proof in this forum ( and actually posting the quote yourself!) are you not opening yourself to legal action against you by the subject of the story? See above, but no. Edit - Can Florin PROVE he had to sack 2 people because of POF's alleged stealing? Seems rather sensationalist to me. There are free versions of most of the unlockers IMEI check sell. AFAIK Pof has only been involved with the hermes unlocker, were IMEI-checks revenues so dependant on hermes unlocks that 2 people got sacked when the free version came out?. Hmmmmmmm...... That's not really the point is it... P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul (MVP) Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 Just a quick question - how legal is the IMEI unlocking software? Software unlocking is completely legal in the UK, and in most countries. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest unclesomebody Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 I agree this is a very biased viewpoint and we have no idea what pof's stance is on this. In my opinion, this little whinge from imei check is a bit immature. It would be like Apple saying they are releasing no more updates to the iphone because people are jailbreaking them and using them on other networks (which loses Apple revenue). People will ALWAYS reverse engineer, crack, hack, steal, etc and this has to be taken into account by any firm operating in the market place. To say they aren't going to provide a service because they don't want it stolen/cracked/hacked is a little immature in business terms. I can fully understand imei check wanting to have a bitch, but I don't think it's' very professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mysterious Stranger Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 Mysterious Stranger, if you want to be like that... http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread...0819&page=6 ;) P Yep, looks pretty conclusive, but the news story needed that in the original post methinks to provide balance / proof.... I'd be curious to know where / how reverse engineering a method that was most likely reversed engineered itself from someone else's IP stands from an IP ownership point of view. I know someone who deals with reverse engineering IP in the pharmaceutical industry, I'll get her comments ;-) M.S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mysterious Stranger Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 By allowing someone to call someone else a theif with no visible proof in this forum ( and actually posting the quote yourself!) are you not opening yourself to legal action against you by the subject of the story? See above, but no. Yeah, link provided now, but not in the original (unbalenced?) news story, which was my point... M.S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mysterious Stranger Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 Edit - Can Florin PROVE he had to sack 2 people because of POF's alleged stealing? Seems rather sensationalist to me. There are free versions of most of the unlockers IMEI check sell. AFAIK Pof has only been involved with the hermes unlocker, were IMEI-checks revenues so dependant on hermes unlocks that 2 people got sacked when the free version came out?. Hmmmmmmm...... That's not really the point is it... No, but it alludes to the accuracy of the article ( if it is indeed an article in the news section and not just a gripe worthy of the lounge section accidently posted as 'news') and would point to how seriously we should take Florin's claims. M.S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr.Clark Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 Software unlocking is completely legal in the UK, and in most countries.Well that was easy. That said, are they saying they won't release it because he's allegedly stolen it, or because he's allegedly stolen code from them in the past and they don't want him to get his hands on the kaiser software (that they're not going to release)? Seems slightly counter-productive, but then, what do I know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul (MVP) Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 Well, imei-check are only going to unlock en-masse to avoid putting the software in the public domain (to be reverse engineered). This is particularly the case because the Kaiser unlock is incredibly difficult. I think it's newsworthy, because many MoDaCo members unlock their devices, and use imei-check to do so. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mysterious Stranger Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 (edited) Well, imei-check are only going to unlock en-masse to avoid putting the software in the public domain (to be reverse engineered). This is particularly the case because the Kaiser unlock is incredibly difficult. I think it's newsworthy, because many MoDaCo members unlock their devices, and use imei-check to do so. P I would agree it to be newsworthy, however news articles need to be a certain standard ( factually correct, balanced viewpoint, avoiding 'theif' name calling etc etc) otherwise they're just comment. We don't want modaco ending up like msmoblies do we?.... M.S Edit - Doubt anyone with 500 handsets to unlcok would go to imei-check. If they have 500+ units I would think they have a direct line to the OEM distributer or are a reseller, and wouldn't want to hurt said relationship by using 3rd party unlock software voiding their handset warranty etc etc or break any distribution agreements they may have. Most voda resellers can access 'the list' for unlock codes anyway. Maybe IMEI-check *can't* unlock the Kaiser and are saying this as a smokescreen knowing no-one will call their bluff?... Why don't they offer a mail-in service like they did with the Universal eh?.... ;-) Edited October 9, 2007 by Mysterious Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest robt Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 Yep, looks pretty conclusive, but the news story needed that in the original post methinks to provide balance / proof.... I'd be curious to know where / how reverse engineering a method that was most likely reversed engineered itself from someone else's IP stands from an IP ownership point of view. I know someone who deals with reverse engineering IP in the pharmaceutical industry, I'll get her comments ;-) M.S I'd say, now we will see just how clever POF is. If he can produce a free unlocker for the Kaiser with the knowledge already gained then I say more power to him. If, without florins unlocker to reverse engineer he is stumped, then I will accept hes just a hacker. That said, it seems imei check will still lose a lot of revenue by not providing this service to all. I forecast they will change their minds at some point or their whole business model seems to be lost to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Neil5459 Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 Whatever the moral arguments may be in respect to the 'theft' itself, and whether this constitutes news or comment, the main point that makes this a newsworthy article is that it will be much harder to unlock a Kaiser then previous models. This may have a material effect on whether people buy an operator branded & locked version, or a Resale version. T-Mobile have no obligation to unlock a device, for any sum of money, until the contract period has expired; if you've had a long term contract before upgrading you are more likely to get an unlock code, but it it not consistent. Orange, when they release this are even more difficult and generally won;t allow unlocking until the end of the contract period. O2 usually release unlocked models, so some people may prefer to wait for the O2 version (December?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mjaaron Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 Do we have any proof that imei-check even have a working unlocker? Who knows, this could be their idea of delay tactics while they and sort this out themselves... Once they've got it, they might suddenly change their minds and decide to start selling it to people again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mysterious Stranger Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 This may have a material effect on whether people buy an operator branded & locked version, or a Resale version. T-Mobile have no obligation to unlock a device, for any sum of money, until the contract period has expired; if you've had a long term contract before upgrading you are more likely to get an unlock code, but it it not consistent. Orange, when they release this are even more difficult and generally won;t allow unlocking until the end of the contract period. O2 usually release unlocked models, so some people may prefer to wait for the O2 version (December?) A very good point. Shame we can't get sales breakdowns by vendor. I wonder if HTC monitor this? M.S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest crazyc Posted October 9, 2007 Report Share Posted October 9, 2007 I don't really see the business sense in all this. Yeah they get to have a rant at Pof et al and publicise their allegations, but (and admitting that I may well be talking out of my rear) the following seems true IMEI-check have always faced free unlockers released a while after their solutions, they have therefore made their money (a) in the intervening period and (;) from those unwilling to trust the free unlockers. If they have spent signifcant resoures unlocking the kaiser, then to sacrifice both the above markets (and lets face it, odds are that eventually a free unlocker will surface) seems odd unless there is significant gain from keeping it secret and making money only from groups of 500 units plus. (I struggle with that idea) If the stated policy is taken at face value then it just doesn't seem to stack up to me. UNLESS the solution, whilst very difficult to achieve, is almost instantly crackable. But even then, you are excluding those who would not trust the free unlocker, and so losing custom. Cutting off the nose to spite the face comes to mind - however this could of course all change if the policy is not to be taken at face value. It might even persuade all those with an interest in an unlocked phone to buy the HTC variant unlocked - but then again, that is destroying their own market. Hmmmm - its all too confusing. And I don't see the target of their affections losing any sleep over this either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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