Guest trevor432990 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Posted May 11, 2011 The support website for the Navfree Android version is located here and I have started to report known issues reported in this thread and I'll let you know here if there are any updates to them as they are given out by the developers.
Guest mudcruzr Posted May 11, 2011 Report Posted May 11, 2011 I checked my download last night by moving it over to my phone and it installed fine. It's completely unusable on the small phone screen because of the advert but it does run.(albeit.slowly) - mud
Guest trevor432990 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Posted May 11, 2011 I checked my download last night by moving it over to my phone and it installed fine. It's completely unusable on the small phone screen because of the advert but it does run.(albeit.slowly) - mud OK thanks for the update I have reported your problem to NavFree support and await a reply. Out of interest have you applied the vega-phone-removal.zip to your CM7 version yet? Just that I've removed the phone bits on my Vega release and wondered if that might have something to do with your issue if you haven't.
Guest mudcruzr Posted May 11, 2011 Report Posted May 11, 2011 I hadn't removed the phone stuff, so I just did and tried everything again. Same result unfortunately. But I did have a look at the logs, which may be very useful to the devs. - mud 05-11 11:13:01.811 I/ActivityManager(1071)Starting: Intent { act=android.intent.action.MAIN cat=[android.intent.category.LAUNCHER] flg=0x10200000 cmp=geolife.android.navigationsystem/.NavigationSystem } from pid 1933 05-11 11:13:01.851 I/ActivityManager(1071)Start proc geolife.android.navigationsystem for activity geolife.android.navigationsystem/.NavigationSystem: pid=7895 uid=10091 gids={1015, 3003} 05-11 11:13:01.871 D/dalvikvm(940)GC_EXPLICIT freed 12K, 51% free 2676K/5379K, external 0K/0K, paused 27ms 05-11 11:13:01.891 D/dalvikvm(940)GC_EXPLICIT freed <1K, 51% free 2676K/5379K, external 0K/0K, paused 17ms 05-11 11:13:01.921 D/dalvikvm(7895)Trying to load lib /data/data/geolife.android.navigationsystem/lib/libNavigationSystem.so 0x40514ef0 05-11 11:13:01.941 D/dalvikvm(7895)Added shared lib /data/data/geolife.android.navigationsystem/lib/libNavigationSystem.so 0x40514ef0 05-11 11:13:01.941 I/### EASYLOGWRITE ###(7895)onCreate 05-11 11:13:01.961 D/dalvikvm(940)GC_EXPLICIT freed <1K, 51% free 2676K/5379K, external 0K/0K, paused 64ms 05-11 11:13:01.971 D/dalvikvm(7895)GC_EXTERNAL_ALLOC freed 67K, 50% free 2720K/5379K, external 0K/0K, paused 28ms 05-11 11:13:01.981 W/### EASYLOGWRITE ###(7895)createBanner 05-11 11:13:02.041 W/### EASYLOGWRITE ###(7895)showBanner: 0,0 320x50 05-11 11:13:02.191 I/DEBUG (938)*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** 05-11 11:13:02.191 I/DEBUG (938)Build fingerprint: 'google/passion/passion:2.3.3/GRI40/102588:user/release-keys' 05-11 11:13:02.191 I/DEBUG (938)pid: 7895, tid: 7895 >>> geolife.android.navigationsystem <<< 05-11 11:13:02.191 I/DEBUG (938)signal 11 (SIGSEGV), code 1 (SEGV_MAPERR), fault addr 0000000c 05-11 11:13:02.191 I/DEBUG (938)r0 afd46450 r1 00000000 r2 001e18d0 r3 001e18a0 05-11 11:13:02.191 I/DEBUG (938)r4 00000000 r5 00000030 r6 0029006c r7 00000000 05-11 11:13:02.191 I/DEBUG (938)r8 80e0e1a8 r9 be9cc510 10 00000002 fp be9cc478 05-11 11:13:02.191 I/DEBUG (938)ip 00000000 sp be9cc3a8 lr afd112b8 pc afd13888 cpsr 80000030 05-11 11:13:02.191 I/DEBUG (938)d0 414000003f800000 d1 3fd0000000000000 05-11 11:13:02.191 I/DEBUG (938)d2 c0218000c10c0000 d3 0000000000000000 05-11 11:13:02.191 I/DEBUG (938)d4 bfd00000be800000 d5 0000000000000000 05-11 11:13:02.191 I/DEBUG (938)d6 0000000000000000 d7 408000003e800000 05-11 11:13:02.191 I/DEBUG (938)d8 0000000000000000 d9 0000000000000000 05-11 11:13:02.201 I/DEBUG (938)d10 0000000000000000 d11 0000000000000000 05-11 11:13:02.201 I/DEBUG (938)d12 0000000000000000 d13 0000000000000000 05-11 11:13:02.201 I/DEBUG (938)d14 0000000000000000 d15 0000000000000000 05-11 11:13:02.201 I/DEBUG (938)scr 20000010 05-11 11:13:02.201 I/DEBUG (938) 05-11 11:13:02.291 I/DEBUG (938)#00 pc 00013888 /system/lib/libc.so (dlfree) 05-11 11:13:02.291 I/DEBUG (938)#01 pc 00014982 /system/lib/libc.so (free) 05-11 11:13:02.291 I/DEBUG (938)#02 pc 000009d4 /system/lib/libstdc++.so (_ZdlPv) 05-11 11:13:02.291 I/DEBUG (938)#03 pc 003f0018 /data/data/geolife.android.navigationsystem/lib/libNavigationSystem.so (_ZN7GeoLife2UI11UILocalizer6UpdateEv) 05-11 11:13:02.291 I/DEBUG (938)#04 pc 003f055c /data/data/geolife.android.navigationsystem/lib/libNavigationSystem.so (_ZN7GeoLife2UI13UIApplication13SetLocalePathERKNS_4Base2IO13DirectoryPathE) 05-11 11:13:02.291 I/DEBUG (938)#05 pc 004e3ac8 /data/data/geolife.android.navigationsystem/lib/libNavigationSystem.so (_ZN16NavigationSystem11ApplicationC1EPvN7GeoLife4Base3refINS_15StartupSettingsE E) 05-11 11:13:02.291 I/DEBUG (938)#06 pc 0053f9e8 /data/data/geolife.android.navigationsystem/lib/libNavigationSystem.so (_Z15InitApplicationv) 05-11 11:13:02.291 I/DEBUG (938)#07 pc 00519ec8 /data/data/geolife.android.navigationsystem/lib/libNavigationSystem.so (_ZN11TMainThread3RunEv) 05-11 11:13:02.291 I/DEBUG (938)#08 pc 00561218 /data/data/geolife.android.navigationsystem/lib/libNavigationSystem.so (_ZN7TThread5StartEv) 05-11 11:13:02.291 I/DEBUG (938)#09 pc 005612e4 /data/data/geolife.android.navigationsystem/lib/libNavigationSystem.so (_ZN12TThreadModel5StartEv) 05-11 11:13:02.291 I/DEBUG (938)#10 pc 00011e74 /system/lib/libdvm.so 05-11 11:13:02.291 I/DEBUG (938)#11 pc 000433b4 /system/lib/libdvm.so (dvmCallJNIMethod_virtualNoRef) 05-11 11:13:02.291 I/DEBUG (938)#12 pc 00048bbe /system/lib/libdvm.so (dvmResolveNativeMethod) 05-11 11:13:02.291 I/DEBUG (938)#13 pc 00017088 /system/lib/libdvm.so 05-11 11:13:02.291 I/DEBUG (938)#14 pc 0001c0cc /system/lib/libdvm.so (dvmMterpStd) 05-11 11:13:02.291 I/DEBUG (938)#15 pc 0001afb4 /system/lib/libdvm.so (dvmInterpret) 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)#16 pc 00059b3e /system/lib/libdvm.so (dvmInvokeMethod) 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)#17 pc 00061822 /system/lib/libdvm.so 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)#18 pc 00017088 /system/lib/libdvm.so 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)#19 pc 0001c0cc /system/lib/libdvm.so (dvmMterpStd) 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)#20 pc 0001afb4 /system/lib/libdvm.so (dvmInterpret) 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)#21 pc 0005999c /system/lib/libdvm.so (dvmCallMethodV) 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)#22 pc 00045e8a /system/lib/libdvm.so 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)#23 pc 000334ea /system/lib/libandroid_runtime.so 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)#24 pc 000342d2 /system/lib/libandroid_runtime.so (_ZN7android14AndroidRuntime5startEPKcb) 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)#25 pc 00008cca /system/bin/app_process 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)#26 pc 00014ffa /system/lib/libc.so (__libc_init) 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938) 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)code around pc: 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)afd13868 d00542b9 447a4a9b 42816910 810ef0c0 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)afd13878 608c60e1 68d1e069 42916994 6897d011 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)afd13888 c00cf8d7 f0404594 f8d18101 4594c008 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)afd13898 80fcf040 42876900 60f9bf24 d21d608f 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)afd138a8 6951e0f4 0014f102 6911b939 0010f102 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938) 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)code around lr: 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)afd11298 e2166903 1a000018 e5945000 e1a02004 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)afd112a8 e2055a02 e1a00005 e3851001 ebffed56 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)afd112b8 e3500000 13856002 1a000001 ea000009 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)afd112c8 ebfffe50 e1a01004 e1a00006 ebffed56 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)afd112d8 e1a01005 e1550000 e1a02006 e3a03000 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938) 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)stack: 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc368 00000002 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc36c afd14347 /system/lib/libc.so 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc370 be9cc4c8 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc374 00000006 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc378 0011e068 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc37c 0011e06d 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc380 00000000 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc384 80bef1b8 /data/data/geolife.android.navigationsystem/lib/libNavigationSystem.so 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc388 00000000 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc38c be9cc4c8 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc390 001e18a8 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc394 001f1450 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc398 80e0e1a8 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc39c be9cc510 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc3a0 df002777 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc3a4 e3a070ad 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)#00 be9cc3a8 00000000 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc3ac be9cc4c8 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc3b0 00000000 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc3b4 001f1450 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc3b8 80e0e1a8 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc3bc afd14985 /system/lib/libc.so 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)#01 be9cc3c0 00000000 05-11 11:13:02.301 I/DEBUG (938)be9cc3c4 afc009d7 /system/lib/libstdc++.so 05-11 11:13:03.861 I/BootReceiver(1071)Copying /data/tombstones/tombstone_00 to DropBox (SYSTEM_TOMBSTONE) 05-11 11:13:03.896 E/InputDispatcher(1071)channel '409567f0 geolife.android.navigationsystem/geolife.android.navigationsystem.NavigationSystem (server)' ~ Consumer closed input channel or an error occurred. events=0x8 05-11 11:13:03.896 E/InputDispatcher(1071)channel '409567f0 geolife.android.navigationsystem/geolife.android.navigationsystem.NavigationSystem (server)' ~ Channel is unrecoverably broken and will be disposed! 05-11 11:13:03.896 D/Zygote (940)Process 7895 terminated by signal (11) 05-11 11:13:03.896 D/dalvikvm(1071)GC_FOR_MALLOC freed 811K, 41% free 6347K/10695K, external 2628K/3279K, paused 37ms 05-11 11:13:03.896 I/dalvikvm-heap(1071)Grow heap (frag case) to 11.258MB for 87396-byte allocation 05-11 11:13:03.931 D/dalvikvm(1071)GC_FOR_MALLOC freed 170K, 43% free 6262K/10823K, external 2628K/3279K, paused 31ms 05-11 11:13:03.931 I/WindowManager(1071)WINDOW DIED Window{409567f0 geolife.android.navigationsystem/geolife.android.navigationsystem.NavigationSystem paused=false} 05-11 11:13:03.931 I/ActivityManager(1071)Process geolife.android.navigationsystem (pid 7895) has died. 05-11 11:13:03.931 W/WindowManager(1071)Failed looking up window 05-11 11:13:03.931 W/WindowManager(1071)java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Requested window android.os.BinderProxy@407520c0 does not exist 05-11 11:13:03.931 W/WindowManager(1071)at com.android.server.WindowManagerService.windowForClientLocked(WindowManagerServi e.java:8181) 05-11 11:13:03.931 W/WindowManager(1071)at com.android.server.WindowManagerService.windowForClientLocked(WindowManagerServi e.java:8172) 05-11 11:13:03.931 W/WindowManager(1071)at com.android.server.WindowManagerService$WindowState$DeathRecipient.binderDied(WindowManagerService.java:7030) 05-11 11:13:03.931 W/WindowManager(1071)at android.os.BinderProxy.sendDeathNotice(Binder.java:385) 05-11 11:13:03.931 W/WindowManager(1071)at dalvik.system.NativeStart.run(Native Method) 05-11 11:13:03.931 I/WindowManager(1071)WIN DEATH: null
Guest trevor432990 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) Thanks Mud. Shame it didn't help but thanks for the log now just need to find out the right person to send it to. Edit:- I have it on reliable authority that our friends the NavFree development team are monitoring this thread and are working on your log right now! Thanks guys :unsure: Edited May 11, 2011 by trevor432990
Guest mudcruzr Posted May 16, 2011 Report Posted May 16, 2011 After a brief flirtation with VegaComb (which I had to remove because of the frequent freezes - Come on Beta2!!) I had the opportunity to install another rom when I was rebuilding my Vega. I chose to install Corvus5 plus the Corvus0_2 kernel. I did and retried Navfree but for some unknown reason I downloaded a fresh copy of the apk instead of using the one I d/l last week. I installed and it is now working perfectly; but the big news is - NO ADS!! :unsure: For those wanting to check, the version I have now is 1.8.0 build 4996 If that's newer than the version you have, I suggest updating to get rid of those *&^$^&$£ ads. - mud
Guest Dave Marchant Posted May 16, 2011 Report Posted May 16, 2011 After a brief flirtation with VegaComb (which I had to remove because of the frequent freezes - Come on Beta2!!) I had the opportunity to install another rom when I was rebuilding my Vega. I chose to install Corvus5 plus the Corvus0_2 kernel. I did and retried Navfree but for some unknown reason I downloaded a fresh copy of the apk instead of using the one I d/l last week. I installed and it is now working perfectly; but the big news is - NO ADS!! :unsure: For those wanting to check, the version I have now is 1.8.0 build 4996 If that's newer than the version you have, I suggest updating to get rid of those *&^$^&$£ ads. - mud Bear in mind that Corvus5 has some ad blocking capabilities itself with dummy host entries for the ad servers.
Guest goatee Posted May 16, 2011 Report Posted May 16, 2011 Expansys web server seems to be struggling at the moment :unsure:. Can't get the download link.
Guest trevor432990 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) After a brief flirtation with VegaComb (which I had to remove because of the frequent freezes - Come on Beta2!!) I had the opportunity to install another rom when I was rebuilding my Vega. I chose to install Corvus5 plus the Corvus0_2 kernel. I did and retried Navfree but for some unknown reason I downloaded a fresh copy of the apk instead of using the one I d/l last week. I installed and it is now working perfectly; but the big news is - NO ADS!! :P For those wanting to check, the version I have now is 1.8.0 build 4996 If that's newer than the version you have, I suggest updating to get rid of those *&^$^&$£ ads. - mud Thanks for the heads-up on the latest NavFree version it'll be interesting to see if it installs on CM7 (hey @rubbery can you try?) and if the ads have been removed from the app. I'll try and load myself this afternoon. Anyway, glad you are up and running at last ! :unsure: Mud where did you get the version number from only my download file is named navfree_1.8.0.4996 but the Manage Apps screen says it's v1.7.0 and using the ABOUT command within the app does not show the version. Can you check too please? EDIT:- I'm stuck like Goatee was now trying to get into the Expansys site must be everyone clambering for it :) Edited May 16, 2011 by trevor432990
Guest mudcruzr Posted May 16, 2011 Report Posted May 16, 2011 Thanks for the heads-up on the latest NavFree version it'll be interesting to see if it installs on CM7 (hey @rubbery can you try?) and if the ads have been removed from the app. I'll try and load myself this afternoon. Anyway, glad you are up and running at last ! :unsure: As Dave says above, it may be corvus5 blocking the ads - I'd check the version first. - mud
Guest trevor432990 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Posted May 16, 2011 As Dave says above, it may be corvus5 blocking the ads - I'd check the version first. - mud Mud where did you get the version number from only my download file is named navfree_1.8.0.4996 but the Manage Apps screen says it's v1.7.0 and using the ABOUT command within the app does not show the version. Can you check too please?
Guest mudcruzr Posted May 16, 2011 Report Posted May 16, 2011 Mud where did you get the version number from only my download file is named navfree_1.8.0.4996 but the Manage Apps screen says it's v1.7.0 and using the ABOUT command within the app does not show the version. Can you check too please? My Manage apps screen says 1.7.0 too, the version number is at the top left corner of the about screen (which is also the splash screen) - mud
Guest trevor432990 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Posted May 16, 2011 My Manage apps screen says 1.7.0 too, the version number is at the top left corner of the about screen (which is also the splash screen) - mud Ah mine says 1.8 as well but I've still got ads so it must be Corvus stripping them off for you. I'll try an app from the market to see if it'll do the same :unsure:
Guest Dave Marchant Posted May 16, 2011 Report Posted May 16, 2011 I have confirmed it is the ROM on mine. I have installed the same downloaded apk on Stock 1.09 (get adds) and Corvus5 (no adds).
Guest trevor432990 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Posted May 16, 2011 I have confirmed it is the ROM on mine. I have installed the same downloaded apk on Stock 1.09 (get adds) and Corvus5 (no adds). OK many thanks Dave hopefully our Honeycomb version will not have the ads too
Guest Gavjbrown Posted May 16, 2011 Report Posted May 16, 2011 So I guess even though its called NavFree in the future we will have to pay to make it usable i.e ad free version.
Guest Dave Marchant Posted May 16, 2011 Report Posted May 16, 2011 So I guess even though its called NavFree in the future we will have to pay to make it usable i.e ad free version. Just run an ad blocker from the Market, or use a ROM (like Corvus5) that has ad blocking built in.
Guest Gavjbrown Posted May 16, 2011 Report Posted May 16, 2011 Just run an ad blocker from the Market, or use a ROM (like Corvus5) that has ad blocking built in. I've put it on my Streak as I don't plan on using the vega as for sat nav. Tried ad blocker and it didn't work. I wouldn't mind paying a few quid for it anyway if it works I suppose.
Guest trevor432990 Posted May 20, 2011 Report Posted May 20, 2011 After a brief flirtation with VegaComb (which I had to remove because of the frequent freezes - Come on Beta2!!) I had the opportunity to install another rom when I was rebuilding my Vega. I chose to install Corvus5 plus the Corvus0_2 kernel. I did and retried Navfree but for some unknown reason I downloaded a fresh copy of the apk instead of using the one I d/l last week. I installed and it is now working perfectly; but the big news is - NO ADS!! :P For those wanting to check, the version I have now is 1.8.0 build 4996 If that's newer than the version you have, I suggest updating to get rid of those *&^$^&$£ ads. - mud @Mud I've just realised I missed the fact that you are now up and running on Corvus5 whereas CM7 would not run so I wonder if the Navfree problem is down to how they run their adverts. I shall post something in the Corvus5 topic and see if they can tell me what they did to block ads in the first place.
Guest N3ls0n Posted May 20, 2011 Report Posted May 20, 2011 @Mud I've just realised I missed the fact that you are now up and running on Corvus5 whereas CM7 would not run so I wonder if the Navfree problem is down to how they run their adverts. I shall post something in the Corvus5 topic and see if they can tell me what they did to block ads in the first place. Trevor I don't know if this is relevant but I had Navfree working OK on my Samsung Galaxy S until I updated via Kies to gingerbread 2.3.3, now.... start app .. black screen... dumped to home page. I have posted this on the Nav support page hoping for a reply. Tht N3lson
Guest trevor432990 Posted May 20, 2011 Report Posted May 20, 2011 Trevor I don't know if this is relevant but I had Navfree working OK on my Samsung Galaxy S until I updated via Kies to gingerbread 2.3.3, now.... start app .. black screen... dumped to home page. I have posted this on the Nav support page hoping for a reply. Tht N3lson Yes I saw your post there thanks. They are working on it but I'm trying to give them a helping hand to track down the possible causes, think they could use some logs like Mud gave above to try and resolve it but as well as that we could try and identify the differences between ROMs which do work and those that don't if possible and so I've posted Corvus and Newbe5 for suggestions :P
Guest mudcruzr Posted May 20, 2011 Report Posted May 20, 2011 Trevor I don't know if this is relevant but I had Navfree working OK on my Samsung Galaxy S until I updated via Kies to gingerbread 2.3.3, now.... start app .. black screen... dumped to home page. I have posted this on the Nav support page hoping for a reply. Tht N3lson this may be very relevant as, of course, cm7 is gingerbread and corvus5 is froyo - mud
Guest trevor432990 Posted May 20, 2011 Report Posted May 20, 2011 this may be very relevant as, of course, cm7 is gingerbread and corvus5 is froyo - mud Thanks Mud I'll update my post to them to say that so they are aware at least.
Guest beegee1962 Posted May 21, 2011 Report Posted May 21, 2011 I am using Navdroyd at the moment. It is not free, but it is not expensive and it uses free map data, so I can download whatever I need. Basically they use the same map source than NavFree. When I tried to get Asian maps for NavFree, I was forwarded to a website where I have to create my maps and download them, while Navdroyd allows me to just download the maps that I need. Beside of 4.99 Euro for Navdroyd I do not see the benefit of NavFree at the moment.
Guest trevor432990 Posted May 21, 2011 Report Posted May 21, 2011 I am using Navdroyd at the moment. It is not free, but it is not expensive and it uses free map data, so I can download whatever I need. Basically they use the same map source than NavFree. When I tried to get Asian maps for NavFree, I was forwarded to a website where I have to create my maps and download them, while Navdroyd allows me to just download the maps that I need. Beside of 4.99 Euro for Navdroyd I do not see the benefit of NavFree at the moment. Fair enough if you can't get what you want from one app then go to another.
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