Google control of Android - Your thoughts?

[Guest trevor432990]

Hi folks .... Just wondered what other people think the future of Android will be as Google gets bigger and more powerful?

Now Google have bought the phone/tablet manufacturing arm of Motorola we can see in hindsight why they really delayed the distribution of the Honeycomb source to the rest of the world to play with whilst the Motorola Xoom (which was given it early) grabbed market share.

If this was the case then what will be their schedule for future Android releases as they take over production of more hardware devices the delay will surely get longer and longer. Will the 'Open Alliance' become less open and more like a cheap software development wing for the greater organisation?

Am I getting paranoid or do other people have similar concerns?

[Guest simonta]

Hi Trevor.

It's one view but my personal opinion differs.

I believe that it would have been a mistake to release HC. I expect to get flamed for this, but here goes :)

HC is a kludge. Whilst it is a fantastic step up from Android 2.x, it's full of problems and is not the best that Android can do on the tablet format. As an example, I have 15 notifications. Why can't I clear them all as I could in Froyo? I have to dismiss each one individually. Why can't I long press an app in the app drawer to either position it on a home screen or uninstall it? Why can't I scroll into all apps from the categories on the market home page, sorted by number of downloads, trending etc etc? I could go on.

HC was Google's knee jerk response to the rapid rise of the iPad. It was a stop gap attempt to compete and not to grow market share for the Xoom to buy later. It was obvious that the Xoom was too little too late and was quickly overtaken by Asus and Samsung. Google cut a lot of corners and built an OS that is lousy on 90% of shipped Android devices, i.e. phones. HC was also given to a handful of other manufacturers, all of whom, including MM, had to license it to prevent a royal screw up. Imagine if HC had been open sourced and every man jack had ported it onto phones. What bad press for Android would have resulted?

Google bought Motorola Mobility for the patent library. Motorola invented the mobile phone, they have more patents in the field than anyone else and what better way to defend against the Apple and Microsoft law suits than to clobber them with counter suits based on the Motorola properties? Now I think the whole thing sucks but until the US and EU can wake up and move from 19th century thinking to something that meets the needs of the digital economies, then the lawyers will decide who wins in the marketplace.

Finally, no-one, no even Google with MM, can compete effectively with the iPad. Apple has such a strangle hold on the supply chain with anti-competitive practices and onerously restrictive partner agreements that to build something with the spec of the iPad and support it with the requisite infrastructure can only be a loss leader. Few, in today's economic climate, are prepared to do that. Even if Google was to produce it's own devices using MM, and that's a big if, they would still have to fight in the same supply chain. Couple the anti-competitive behaviour with the cult-like lack of critical thinking that the average Apple consumer displays and even Google looks like David squaring up to Goliath. Even if you do compete, Apple will claim they invented the very act of breathing and sue you away from anywhere near being a threat. Look at the travesty that was the temporary injunction on the Galaxy Tab 10.1 - the first tablet in my opinion that surpasses the iPad. Apple will do that to everyone who has the gall to think that free market competition is good for consumers.

[Guest premieral]

I honestly think business is business and when there are shareholders there will always be a need to make onerous profits, apple, google non of them differ at all from any other large company,so when they have something of worth they have a right to prevent others from destroying either it or its reputation. However the free market allows us as consumers to decide wether we buy it or not and so dictate in some small way company policy.

I didnt buy the vega because it was android i bought it because people were striving to change/improve it and i wanted to play along,similarly i jailbroke my ipod touch for the same reason.

Whatever happens there will always be people like ejtagle, newbe5 , corvus etc that have either the know how or the desire to mess with things and offer them up to the rest of us so i wont lose any sleep either way, however Trevor and Simon it is nice to see you both back on the forum it seems full of newbies lately as everyone migrates to tabletroms it seems :D

[Guest trevor432990]

Hi Simon,

You raise some very interesting and pertinent points. I must say I've found Honeycomb (in its Vegacomb 3.2 form) pretty stable and reliable so far although I have only be using basic apps and techniques to date. The notification flag removal process is a bit of a pain I agree but not a biggy as far I'm concerned and I'd say the Market filtering is down to that app rather than the OS surely?

I guess the point I was trying to make with my post was that I fear that Google appears to be starting to take a leaf out of Apples' book (no pun intended) and becoming 'anti-competitive' in its own right by being so selective in how/when it chooses to release 'open systems' code.

Whilst I understand there is a need to avoid bad press for Android there also needs to be some kind of recognition made that modding will occur and it is not a bad thing (as we know ourselves) as it encourages development of new and innovative ways of doing things. Such an example is the Microsoft Kinect box which MS had originally got a very narrow definition of how it should be used with the Xbox but now since the so-called 'hackers' have been at work they can now see many more ways the device can be used and are starting to see the benefit of opening their minds.

Whether it is Google, Apple, Microsoft or Sony they all need start re-thinking their approach or they will lose out to smaller new companies who have some imagination.

[Guest trevor432990]

Hey Al,

Nope you haven't got rid of me yet :P I do spend an increasing amount of time doing other things now and don't drop in quite as much but I think most of the questions now being asked here have already been answered many times before and also I got annoyed by those people who just ask a question ... get an answer .. never to be heard of again. Sheesh where did good manners and politeness go ? There that's my gripe for the day over :D

[Guest simonta]

Hi Simon,

You raise some very interesting and pertinent points. I must say I've found Honeycomb (in its Vegacomb 3.2 form) pretty stable and reliable so far although I have only be using basic apps and techniques to date. The notification flag removal process is a bit of a pain I agree but not a biggy as far I'm concerned and I'd say the Market filtering is down to that app rather than the OS surely?

I guess the point I was trying to make with my post was that I fear that Google appears to be starting to take a leaf out of Apples' book (no pun intended) and becoming 'anti-competitive' in its own right by being so selective in how/when it chooses to release 'open systems' code.

Whilst I understand there is a need to avoid bad press for Android there also needs to be some kind of recognition made that modding will occur and it is not a bad thing (as we know ourselves) as it encourages development of new and innovative ways of doing things. Such an example is the Microsoft Kinect box which MS had originally got a very narrow definition of how it should be used with the Xbox but now since the so-called 'hackers' have been at work they can now see many more ways the device can be used and are starting to see the benefit of opening their minds.

Whether it is Google, Apple, Microsoft or Sony they all need start re-thinking their approach or they will lose out to smaller new companies who have some imagination.

I agree with you, and should have added to my response that I believe Ice Cream Sandwich is the point at which the HC kludge is laid to rest - and Google has always said that they will open source it and I don't doubt that. When I said HC is a kludge, I didn't mean it's not stable or reliable, it is, but rather that it does not fully exploit the tablet format and does not work on phones. ICS is a much better proposition as it has the HC and Froyo interfaces and you can switch between them - even on the fly. HC is also very limited in support for app developers in using scrolling, resizeable widgets, multiple screen resolutions and portrait/landscape orientation. In HC, the app developer has to do pretty much everything and think about all the possible devices the app might run on - and we've all seen the results of that!

Android was not built from existing open source code and is released to open source under the Apache license. Google is entitled to decide whether particular versions of Android are open sourced and I as I said, I do think that not releasing HC was the right thing to do.

What do I know, but I can't see Google doing an Apple. Despite Google's claims to have the biggest brains on the planet, they have failed on almost every attempt to shift their business model from 90% of revenue coming from advertising. At the moment, it's in their interests to have Android spread as far and wide as possible to get more people creating Gmail accounts and using Google apps for search, mapping etc and that means keeping HTC, Samsung et all "on side". If they cut them loose, they will certainly migrate to Windows Phone and if there's someone Google hates more than Apple, it's Microsoft ;)

I also think it's foolish to dismiss Microsoft and Nokia. Windows Phone is actually very good. It's got a lot of problems, many of which will be addressed in the Mango release, but technically, in my opinion, it's the best of the big 3 mobile operating systems and also the easiest to build apps for. If Nokia can get even 10% market with Windows Phone, the Windows app store will blossom which will attract more partners and customers. I have a Samsung Omnia 7 and it's a very, very good phone but let down by lack of decent apps.

Personally, I expect Google to aggressively use the patent library and leave MM to their own devices but of course, have favoured status to produce best of breed products. With ICS in open source, anyone can build great Android products but the requirement to license the Google apps, including the market, will leave Google with overall stewardship.

[Guest simonta]

I honestly think business is business and when there are shareholders there will always be a need to make onerous profits, apple, google non of them differ at all from any other large company,so when they have something of worth they have a right to prevent others from destroying either it or its reputation. However the free market allows us as consumers to decide wether we buy it or not and so dictate in some small way company policy.

I didnt buy the vega because it was android i bought it because people were striving to change/improve it and i wanted to play along,similarly i jailbroke my ipod touch for the same reason.

Whatever happens there will always be people like ejtagle, newbe5 , corvus etc that have either the know how or the desire to mess with things and offer them up to the rest of us so i wont lose any sleep either way, however Trevor and Simon it is nice to see you both back on the forum it seems full of newbies lately as everyone migrates to tabletroms it seems :D

Hey Al. Just been going through "interesting times" (as the Chinese say) recently but do have more time coming back to me. Got to say, I'm contemplating jumping to Tablet ROMs. 90% of all the questions on here could be addressed with some will produced stickies and guides which newbies couldn't fail to stumble upon but this forum is completely abandoned by Paul and the mods and the signal to noise ratio is poor. If Tablet ROMs get it right and let the community shape itself, then I'll move across. Besides, it's easy to see good folks like you carry the load for a while ;)

Cheers

[Guest phil8715]

Hey Al. Just been going through "interesting times" (as the Chinese say) recently but do have more time coming back to me. Got to say, I'm contemplating jumping to Tablet ROMs. 90% of all the questions on here could be addressed with some will produced stickies and guides which newbies couldn't fail to stumble upon but this forum is completely abandoned by Paul and the mods and the signal to noise ratio is poor. If Tablet ROMs get it right and let the community shape itself, then I'll move across. Besides, it's easy to see good folks like you carry the load for a while ;)

Cheers

I think we are in interesting times. I also predicted that 2011 would be the year the tablet market exploded and I was right.

However the thing that concerns me most is Apple. Steve Jobs has been throwing his toys out of the pram with Samsung, as have Microsoft has with Nokia. What Apple don't seem to realise is that the market is big enough for both IOS and Android. Apple today have stopped the sale of the Samsung Galaxy tab 10.1 and SGS and SGS2, cheers Apple I had plan to get an SGS2 come upgrade time December/January.

As we all know Android is too fragmented too many devices too many versions of Android, the good thing about Android is that most phones and tablets are customisable, Steve Jobs can't understand why most people prefer Android over IOS, the answer is staring him right in the face, its called Flash Player and open source, Apple control their IOS devices so when an update comes out it actually does come out, Android release the generic roms for handsets but the network Operators take months to release an update full of their bloated firmware crap.

WebOS fell on it's sword last week everybody knows why, because the HP TouchPad was way overpriced and not very many apps and an untried OS, I've used Palm, Psion and Palm OS was quite good, never had a device on the internet because this was before the days of wifi.

Not quite sure what to make of the MM. I read somewhere they plan to do a joint venture Os. No too sure if this could be the start of a slow death for Android.

Lets hope not.

[Guest Adam:)]

hey Phil, about the samsung galaxy thing, its only affecting the phones, not the tablets and I don't think its affecting the uk much, correct me if I'm wrong though :P unless u don't live in the uk?

[Guest derffie]

You know, this is the most interesting post on here in a while, and simonta has sumed up my thoughts exactly (worded better then my usual gibber i might add) No disregard to anyone, newbe5 et all, but ICS is the android OS that I took a jump on the vega for (Yeah, bit of a risk, but look at how loyal the developers are to the lovely little beast)

As for Apple in this picture? Till they claim they invented natural selection, and divine ownership of the human race, lets all do the wisest thing and ignore them.

[Guest TimboDavis]

Hi guys!

Seems to me as though you're all discussing the issue from quite different perspectives and not surprisingly because of the wideness of trev's initial point.

My belief is that Apple, Google etc can and will coexist with their own strengths and weaknesses, a little like UPS, TNT and Fedex. They've all got their own MO and they're all still going. As has already been stated, business is business but to give the shareholders their cut they have stay in the race so that's where new design and R&D come into it.

As for a kludge Si, it certainly appears to be, BUT a very nice one though. Technically, from what's been said, it's obviously not perfect but from a user's perspective it appears to work quite nicely, especially when compared to earlier Android versions. From thst point of view, I think it will continue to develop just as Windows has done and as long as there are clever folk out there with the knowledge, they'll continue to hack and improve on other folks designs for the benefit of others. These guys are true engineers - they NEED to make things work and improve on existing design; it's in their nature and not always about the money or prestige. The end users, well, they're happy to wait with baited breath until the devs have achieved what they hoped to. Most of the folks who come on here and Tabletroms are just up for the 'excitement' of what can be achieved. As long as opensource and gnu licences exist there's a good future for android I reckon.

For me, they've all got a good future.

[Guest jevdroid]

With google trying to fit Android into everything I think it's just gonna be a matter of time before manufacturers go on and make other choices. Today I saw this article about the Korean government urging LG and Samsung to steer away from Android and I suspect it will only be a matter of time until those companies actually do choose something else (think the WebOS rumor mill!).

Google wants too much. Phones and (with less success) tablets, okay, maybe. But google TV? Google @home? Google in-car entertainment? Nah, I don't think so. Personally, I don't see much future for Android in deeply embedded systems. User interfacing, yes, maybe. But control? Android is no RTOS and as a true embedded developer I'ld stick with what I know works.

It looks like google wants "an Android in everything", and if so, that is gonna'be it's downfall. If google stays within the mobile phone field though, it has a chance.

Edited August 30, 2011 by jevdroid

[Guest phil8715]

With google trying to fit Android into everything I think it's just gonna be a matter of time before manufacturers go on and make other choices. Today I saw this article about the Korean government urging LG and Samsung to steer away from Android and I suspect it will only be a matter of time until those companies actually do choose something else (think the WebOS rumor mill!).

Google wants too much. Phones and (with less success) tablets, okay, maybe. But google TV? Google @home? Google in-car entertainment? Nah, I don't think so. Personally, I don't see much future for Android in deeply embedded systems. User interfacing, yes, maybe. But control? Android is no RTOS and as a true embedded developer I'ld stick with what I know works.

It looks like google wants "an Android in everything", and if so, that is gonna'be it's downfall. If google stays within the mobile phone field though, it has a chance.

Android is everywhere these days. I've heard rumours after ICS (Ice Cream Sandwich)that's going to be it. No more Google updates.

I've heard Jolicloud which is a Linux Ubuntu Os will be available on Android OS.

[Guest simonta]

Android is no RTOS

? It's got the same embedded potential as Linux, at least as far as soft RTOS goes. Take away the user space stuff and the Dalvik VM, and it is Linux! The most common embedded OS there is...

[Guest jevdroid]

? It's got the same embedded potential as Linux, at least as far as soft RTOS goes. Take away the user space stuff and the Dalvik VM, and it is Linux! The most common embedded OS there is...

Certainly not. If you take away "user space stuff" and the VM, you're no longer talking about Android, you're talking about the Linux kernel. Linux has no deterministic realtime behavior - a soft RTOS is NOT a real RTOS in my book. For consumer equipment, the use of Linux may be okay, but that's not the majority of deeply embedded systems. Personally, I don't see a reason to look into Android as a true RTOS replacement. The virtual machine (which is key difference between Linux and Android IMHO) takes away any realtime behavior and kills performance in almost all areas. Not just speed, but space and power consumption just as much.

Let Android to what it is good in: provide a convenient programmer's environment for applications. But just don't think for a moment it is good at (realtime) control.