Argument over network coverage in the US

[Guest McHale]

GSM is 2G (2nd generation digital). TDMA was first (1st generation).

GSM is far better than TDMA for call handling, features, speed, number of calls per channel and some misc stuff.

I'm not sure about the UK, but here in the US, frequency has nothing to do with which technology. The 800 and 1900 frequency bands are what are dedicated spectrum for wireless phones. CDMA operates on both. TDMA operates on both. GSM operates on both (now). Carriers take whatever they can get and all the phones sold here support both.

I'm using the Nokia 6340i GAIT phone here in the US so I can have AMPS, and both GSM and TDMA frequencies. My GSM phone is a p7389 (still). I'm holding off buying a new phone until the smartphone hits quad. If they don't hit quad here by the end of the year, I'll be using the Motorola v600 (which already supports quad band and is rumored to support EDGE in a later version).

-Mc

[Guest aiwapro]

What in the he** are you talking about 'McHale?' You couldn't pay me to believe that you are an engineer, and you don't know sh*t about what's going on. Are you that engineer for that tower in you backyard?

Ok, so the infrastructure was Cingular's in California and Nevada, but that's only two states, you said Bellsouth (Cingular) had the whole WESTERN part of the U.S. on GSM, and that's not true.

On the other part of this deal, T-Mobile own the NYC area network, and Cingular is using that.

If you knew what was going on, you would know that that network in both Nevada & California and NYC is split 50/50 by both companies.

Also, know as much as you think you know, you should know that wireless coverage is not measured in % of land in the U.S. as you speak of, it's measured in POP (% of population).

[Guest martin]

McHale

It might have helped if you told us that your original TDMA network was an American standard. :roll:

GSM is the fastest growing wireless telecommunications technology in the world today, and is currently the world's dominant standard. TDMA is the time tested U.S. digital standard. (extract from your own site).

Good luck in you network plans anyway.

[Guest McHale]

aiwapro said:

You also said that Cingular will have GSM in 95% of their market by the end of the year, that's a lie. Then you said they will have EDGE in place everywhere by the end of the year, and that's a lie too.

http://www.wirelessdevnet.com/news/2002/350/news8.html

favorite quotes:

"Cingular will continue deployment of GSM/GPRS in 2003. Ninety percent of the covered population and all major markets should be complete by the end of next year. (article was written in 2002 so it means by 2003)"

"Cingular is now also beginning to test a software upgrade for its 3G technology -- called EDGE. As part of its current GSM deployment, radios in GSM overlay markets are already EDGE hardware capable. By the end of 2003, all of Cingular's major markets will be both hardware and software enabled for 3G. "

You've called me a liar now a couple times and I've provided links to back it up. Please provide links to what you are talking about. I am having a hard time understanding why you're making personal shots at me and I'm stating facts. Until you show me a link or two, it's only your opinion.

As I have stated several times, Cingular offers the GSM customer the largest available footprint in the US through roaming agreements with AT&T and T-Mobile. Because of that, they are currently the number 1 GSM provider in the US. The customer doesn't care who's tower they are using.

Also, when you compare rates and available coverage for the home footprint, Cingular beats T-Mobile hands down in the Chicago market and many others. T-Mobile gained subscribers by cool phones alone. Well, Cingular and AT&T now have the same phones and more clout in the wireless industry and support to invest and expand. 850 is here to stay and most, if not all, subscribers could care less what frequency they are using. Motorola and Nokia are already selling dual-band GSM phones to support both US frequencies and most people in the US don't leave the country. In fact, nearly every phone that T-Mobile sells, is being sold by Cingular and AT&T. Had Sendo not stopped the MS Smartphone, there would be a Smartphone in the US already. Cingular was (I think) the first carrier to partner with them.

The thing that I'm not sure if you're grasping or not, is Cingular has GSM coverage in many of the same places that T-Mobile has coverage. For example, T-Mobile and AT&T both have 1900 coverage in Illinois (predominantly Chicago-land). Cingular has 850 in the same coverage area. This is common all over the US.

-Mc

[Guest aiwapro]

I don't care about press releases. Those are put out to keep their stocks up and make their company look good. AT&T put out a press release last year that said they would have all of their GSM done by the end of last year, and we are mid way through another year, and they still aren't done. So...., those mean nothing.

Even in the press release you quoted, it says Cingular's MAJOR markets will be hardware and software compatible for 3G. That's not what you said. You said that they will have all of their coverage everywhere completed with 3G. Also, there is a difference with being compatible and being completed. T-Mobile currently has areas in their network compatible already, but as far I know, they aren't yet complete, but

T-Mobile isn't the type of company that brags about what they do (press releases). They normally just get the job done, and then have something to show for, before telling the public about it. They still don't always market that either, even when they are finished. For example, MMS. T-Mobile has had MMS for over a year now, but they just started advertising it. Nokia USA said they used T-Mobile's network for MMS last year, but you never heard T-Mobile ranting and raving about their MMS network then, but now they have something to show for. They have handsets with that feature on it. They have the Nokia 3650, and may I say that T-Mobile has the only Nokia 3650 that is shipping with audio & video messaging, instead of just video.

You said T-Mobile brought customers in on phones, so what. That's part of the business. We are talking about mobile phone networks here. You do whatever neccessary to make the customer happy. Sweet phones make the customers happy and draw them in as customers. It also helps that there are lots of phones that they can import from overseas that are TRI-BAND (900/1800/1900MHz) that they can use on the T-Mobile network, such as the SPV, Sony Ericsson P800, Nokia 7250, etc. etc. Oops, they can't use those on Cingular without losing alot of the little bit of coverage that Cingular has. ...And here we are again; You said yourself that T-Mobile brought customers in on nice phones, but then you have Cingular on this 850 band, which has only a few handsets with that band on it, and the customers don't want those, because they aren't attractive phones and they don't have many to choose from. People like variety. People like the latest & greatest things on the market, and none of the latest & greatest things on the market have the 850 band on them.

You also continue to say that Cingular offers customers the largest available footprint in the U.S. through roaming agreements with AT&T. However, you fail to realize that AT&T doesn't have coverage anywhere that T-Mobile doesn't, so what Cingular has is overlapping coverage. Overlapping is not the same as having more. T-Mobile provides coverage to more POP's (% of people) than Cingular, and that's what the mobile industry is measured in, because people are revenue.

Ok, you said you THINK that Cingular was the first company to partner with Sendo on the Microsoft Smartphone, well if they were the first, that doesn't matter anyways, because it is no more. They ended plans for that last year.

T-Mobile International however has said they they will be releasing the latest Microsoft Smartphone (SPVx) across all of it's networks this Summer. They have already got the name of it as the T-Mobile Tanager.

In Conclusion, you don't understand they just because Cingular duplicates coverage that T-Mobile has, that doesn't make them cover more people, it's just allowing them to stand on their own more, like T-Mobile does.

You know what I went and found. I found a map that as of March 2003 shows the coverage that each of these carriers have that is their own. You will see that Cingular has harldy anything, and even if you put Cingular and AT&T together, they don't beat T-Mobile. AT&T is trying though. Sure Cingular has lanuched a few markets since this map was produced, but not enough to beat T-Mobile.

AT&T Wireless (GSM)

Cingular

T-Mobile

[Guest awarner [MVP]]

This Topic was split from the "Where to by SPV if I am in the US?"

[Guest mcwarre]

Fight, Fight, Fight!! ;)

[Guest awarner [MVP]]

Don't encourage mcwarre ;)

[Guest mcwarre]

Don't encourage mcwarre :)

Do you really think that theyneed encouragement...

Maybe we could have MoDaCo's first Celebrity Boxing Match..... ;) :wink:

That we gotta see.

Maybe then Mono V Paul (after all Mono called him a shorty :!: :!: )

[Guest McHale]

T-Mobile provides coverage to more POP's (% of people) than Cingular, and that's what the mobile industry is measured in, because people are revenue.

I want proof on this one. Show me...

I would say that it's a horrible business decision if T-Mobile ignores 850. ESPECIALLY WITH THIS ON THEIR COVERAGE MAP PAGE:

"Shared networks include: Westlink in western Kansas; Cingular in Knoxville and Kingsport, Tennessee and North and South Carolina; NPI Wireless in northern Michigan; West Virginia Wireless; Conestoga Wireless in central Pennsylvania; Amerilink in Texas (around Wichita Falls); Iowa Wireless in area codes 319 and 563; Unicel in Fargo and Grand Forks, North Dakota, Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and Duluth, Virginia, Hibbing, Moorhead and Crookston, Minnesota; and Airadigm/Einstein PCS in Wisconsin area codes 608 and 920." As a sidenote, they never bothered to change the disclaimer after the agreement with Cingular in California and Nevada.

http://www.t-mobile.com/coverage/

They have no choice but to start carrying phones with 850 on them if they want to compete for coverage.

They have the Nokia 3650, and may I say that T-Mobile has the only Nokia 3650 that is shipping with audio & video messaging, instead of just video.

OH NO!!!!

Someone better tell Cingular so they can remove it from their website!!!

http://onlinestore.cingular.com/webapp/wcs...SBC&ratePlanId=

In fact, I think Cingular carries every phone that T-Mobile has. Since they also carry stuff that T-Mobile does not have, I would guess that makes them appeal to a larger market (along with the better coverage they offer)

In markets where Cingular already was using 1900, they continue to sell tri-band phones and 1900 only phones. They are carrying the dual-US band phones as well. And in markets where 850 is predominant, Cingular carries GAIT and dual-band as well as the quad-bands coming out later this year.

As far as those maps, they are over a year old and are simply wrong. Since I know for a fact that most of Illinois is GSM 850, and those maps don't show any GSM. Also, since Cingular rolled out GSM last year in Ohio and Indiana and those are also not on there. Let me guess where you got those maps... GSMWORLD. HA HA HA HA

Please provide a link or *SOMETHING* to backup any of those wild statements... I'm curious. Also, if T-Mobile has better coverage than anyone else, I'd switch.

-Mc

[Guest aiwapro]

"The company successfully transitioned its VoiceStream Wireless brand in its remaining markets in September 2002 and now operates exclusively under the T-Mobile brand name in 45 of the top 50 U.S. markets, covering 218 million people. T-Mobile USA and its affiliates have licenses to provide service to 95 percent of the U.S. population." About T-Mobile U.S. (3rd Paragraph)

Is that the proof you needed? The information I post is strictly facts; I just come to inform the people of the truth.

The Cingular 3650 IS NOT shipped to send audio & video messages, only audio. It was a deal between Nokia & Cingular.

As far as Cingular having the same phones as T-Mobile, that's nice and all, but T-Mobile has these phones nationwide, Cingular only has them in their GSM markets, which is far from nationwide. Without selling them Nationwide, they can't draw as many customers or revenue as T-Mobile does. You're not understanding that just because Cingular roams on T-Mobile and AT&T nationwide, they can't sell service in these places. If this was the case, then they wouldn't have to build any coverage, and you might not have a job with Cingular(don't take that personal), because they would need no engineers, atleast not site engineers.

There is also something that you might not know, and nothing against you if you didn't know it, but Cingular doesn't have enough spectrum licenses to build GSM everywhere, and still operate their TDMA site in many of the same places. Therefore, they will have to turn off TDMA in some places in order to run their GSM, and unfortunately, that's gonna have to lose customers. This is what's separating AT&T and Cingular: AT&T is RAPIDLY building up their GSM coverage, and Cingular is moving slowly. They are moving slowly because they have no choice, which is another reason why they did in-turn need T-Mobile more than you though they did, because T-Mobile has more licenses than Cingular does.

(To people in other countries, wireless spectrum in the U.S. is issued out little by little by our FCC, and it therefore very precious to the U.S. wireless providers, and in a time like this when companies are trying to upgrade to 3G which uses up alot of spectrum, if you don't have the spectrum, then it's really hard to survive; Spectrum is not available widespread here in the U.S. like it is overseas where you all are).

About those maps, it's weird that they are dated for March 2003, and maybe they must have just been done before Cingular launched in those new markets you spoke of. They have T-Mobile's new markets in Kansas.

[Guest Anonymous]

"...T-Mobile USA and its affiliates have licenses to provide service to 95 percent of the U.S. population."

Is that the proof you needed?

They have LICENSES to provide service to 95%. T-Mobile having a license doesn't get me service. They don't have the funds to build that out.

As far as Cingular having the same phones as T-Mobile, that's nice and all, but T-Mobile has these phones nationwide, Cingular only has them in their GSM markets, which is far from nationwide.

Well, since Cingular's GSM coverage map has more GSM coverage than T-Mobile does, how does that help your argument?

...because they would need no engineers, atleast not site engineers. 

I'm not a site engineer. I'm an applications and services / network engineer.

but Cingular doesn't have enough spectrum licenses to build GSM everywhere, and still operate their TDMA site in many of the same places.  Therefore, they will have to turn off TDMA in some places in order to run their GSM, and unfortunately, that's gonna have to lose customers. 

I"m not sure how it will mean losing customers. They are giving away GAIT and GSM phones with incredible coverage and prices. You'd be amazed how many are jumping at the chance to get a free camera phone or GAIT phone. I think their goal is a simple one. Get as many people on GSM with free stuff and in markets where they have no native coverage, get an agreement with T-Mobile.

About those maps, it's weird that they are dated for March 2003, and maybe they must have just been done before Cingular launched in those new markets you spoke of.  They have T-Mobile's new markets in Kansas.

Ya know, I need to see if I can find out how they get their updated information. I was dealing with a customer who was asking about GSM in Chicago and he quoted that map. I ended up going with him to Chicago with a GSM phone to show him along with the coverage map. We started launching new GSM markets in the midwest last year. They went live in 2002.

Yesterday for grins, I printed out T-Mobile's and Cingular's maps and got them to be the exact same size so I could overlay them. The entire left side of the country is almost identical. The right side is different when you get to the midwestern states and the east coast.

One thing that Cingular is doing in markets where they have no licenses is obviously getting roaming agreements. Also though, they are contacting all the mom and pop TDMA carriers and in some cases, paying the cost to get them to GSM. I'm sure Cingular realizes that without coverage to compete with Verizon, they will lose customers to them.

But like I said earlier, all the customer cares about is how much coverage they get and how big their home market is. Even if Cingular had no GSM towers of their own, all the customer sees is their coverage map and that's all that matters. I have a nationwide plan and a GAIT phone. I'm guarenteed coverage anywhere in the US either by GSM, TDMA, or AMPS. The nice thing is, I can yank out the SIM and put it in any GSM phone. Since I'm positive that Cingular isn't going to get the Smartphone I want (and they will probably also cripple the settings and options), I'll swing the phone of my choice from an online source.

Out of curiosity, are T-Mobile's phones crippled in anyway? I noticed on the Cingular T-720 that I couldn't change ANY of the settings and I couldn't do simple things like Network search or change network or anything that I'm used to on my other GSM phone. I know AT&T has been doing this for a long time.

-Mc

[Guest aiwapro]

Dang man, are you illiterate. I have said this too many times now. Just because Cingular has roaming agreements with Cingular & T-Mobile to cover many places in the United States, they cannot sell service in these places. Thus, they cannot sell those phones nationwide as I spoke of. This is the point of them having to build-out their own coverage, to make the most money out of every market. One again, repeating, in those places where they roam on T-Mobile & AT&T, they cannot sell service in those areas, until they have their own coverage there. Why can't you understand that. That's like saying that since Orange UK has roaming agreements with T-Mobile & AT&T for their UK customers to roam over here in the U.S. when they visit, that Orange can sell service over here in those same places too. No, they can't. If this were the way things went, then the most successful company would be the company with the most roaming agreements, and no sites of their own. (Also, staright off the

T-Mobile site,

"About T-Mobile, USA

Based in Bellevue, Wash., T-Mobile USA operates the largest GSM/GPRS voice and high-speed wireless data network in the United States, reaching 218 million people."

T-Mobile is the largest in the U.S., it says so; So no more arguement there.

You say that they don't have the money to provide service to all the places they have coverage to. I have news for you, they have to. In order to keep their licenses, they have to build out the coverage in all of those places by a certain time, or the FCC takes the licenses.

The problem is, Cingular doesn't even have these licenses, so whether they have the money or not, it doesn't matter.

You contradicted yourself; You said you don't see how they will lose customers, then you said they would lose them to Verizon.

You're not understanding what I said before about the spectrum problems they have. GAIT is a phone with TDMA & GSM, but in some places Cingular can't run both of these at the same time; That's mean they would have to cut off TDMA all together in some places, just to operate their GSM. That means getting everyone to swtich over, which might not be a problem, but could be. They have alot of unhappy customers that are waiting for a way to get out of their contract. They have some recent Class Action lawsuits against them, and the California Utilities Commission is currently checkig them out aswell. That's the first time the Utilities Commission of California has had to check out a wireless provider.

Once again, you say that Cingular can get as many romaing agreements as possible, but I'm telling you, they can't sell service in these markets, unless they build their own network in those areas or get a special type of agreement (like they did with T-Mobile in NYC) which not too many companies are going to go for, because Cingular has nothing else to trade; They have duplicate coverage in most cases, or none at all in other cases. Another example to prove what I'm saying: Cingular roams on T-Mobile nationwide, and here my city they roam on T-Mobile aswell, but Cingular does not and cannot sell service here. There is not a billboard, a store, a kiosk, an employee, any information, a network, or anything.

About crippling the phones, T-Mobile only cripples the wap settings. Everything else on the phone is accessible. Actually, on the S105, it was found that you can actually type in #vswap# (or something like that), and then you were able to change the wap settings too, but that was a first for that.

To answer your question more clearley, T-Mobile cripplies the wap settings. Network search is still right there on the phone.

[Guest McHale]

they *CAN* sell in those markets. They can *NOT* market and advertise in those markets (directly).

If someone comes into a Cingular store and they live in BFE that Cingular doesn't own the license for, they can legally sell to them. Also, if a company is located in said area and they travel to Cingular areas or have people that live in Cingualr areas, they can market and sell to them.

I'm not liking that growing trend of taking away settings. I realize that OTA can correct the WAP settings if they change, but what happens if you need a setting that isn't for the public distribution? What a crock. Looks like I need to start disassembling firmwares again. I thought I was done with that years ago.

-Mc

[Guest aiwapro]

You can have the phone unlocked, and then you're all set. All settings are available.

[Guest Anonymous]

"BELLEVUE, WA and REDMOND, WA - Driving the continued expansion of GSM/GPRS 1900 MHz wireless communication services in the United States, AT&T Wireless (NYSE: AWE) and T-Mobile USA, Inc., a wholly-owned subsidiary of T-Mobile International, the mobile arm of Deutsche Telekom AG (NYSE:DT), today announced a joint roaming agreement, opening up significant new coverage territory for both companies.

Also today, the companies announced an agreement encouraging inter-carrier co-location of network facilities by dramatically reducing cell tower co-location lease costs between the two companies. In addition to lowering costs, this agreement is expected to speed build-out of each company's advanced GSM/GPRS networks.

For AT&T Wireless customers, the roaming agreement provides advanced 1900 voice and data service covering approximately 3,000 highway miles and 12.1 million potential customers in key markets including Minneapolis, MN; Atlantic City, NJ (including along the Atlantic City Expressway); Sarasota, FL; the Delaware/Maryland/Virginia Peninsula; along I-25 from Albuquerque, NM to El Paso, Texas; and, along I-20 in Texas from Dallas to Abilene.

For T-Mobile's customers, the agreement opens up advanced 1900 GSM/GPRS voice and data service in key markets and along more than 2,500 miles of Interstate highways, including AT&T Wireless' coverage along I-40 from the California border to Albuquerque, NM,; I-25 from Denver to Albuquerque; I-80 in Pennsylvania; and I-30 from Texarkana, Texas to Little Rock, AR. Markets include Little Rock; Green Bay and Madison, Wis.; Charlotte, Greensboro and Raleigh, NC; and Knoxville, Tenn. covering more than 10.9 million potential customers.

Today's roaming agreement augments the two companies' aggressive build-out plans for next generation networks.

"On the heels of our roaming agreements with Cingular and Edge Wireless, today's announcement lays another significant plank in the nation's growing GSM coverage map," said John Zeglis, Chairman and CEO of AT&T Wireless. "T-Mobile was an early proponent of GSM, and we are glad to have them as a roaming partner. We're pleased to be able to leverage this additional coverage on behalf of our customers, while providing T-Mobile's customers access to our own next-generation GSM/GPRS highway network."

"GSM is the world standard for wireless voice and data communications and we are delighted to have AT&T Wireless join us in establishing GSM as the emerging North American standard as well," said Robert Dotson, CEO and President of T-Mobile USA, Inc. "This is yet another great opportunity for T-Mobile customers to GET MORE®, allowing them to use GSM 1900 coverage in new territories throughout America while allowing both companies to rapidly and cost effectively build out a single GSM network in less populated areas of the country. We continue to pursue creative ways to expand our GSM 1900 footprint and drive it even further into rural markets."

Financial terms of the agreements were not disclosed. The additional GSM/GPRS 1900 coverage provided by the roaming agreement is expected to be available this June for both companies' customers. AT&T Wireless and T-Mobile expect to begin implementing the reduced co-location rent agreement in the second quarter of 2003. "

AT&T Wireless and T-Mobile USA Sign Roaming Agreement Significantly Expanding GSM/GPRS Footprint in U.S.

[Guest aiwapro]

That was me who posted above.

[Guest McHale]

whoa! talk about timing!!!

I can't wait to forward this to the guys in the marketing department. They're gonna love this.

What I find interesting is how many time 1900 is actually used in the article. Hmmm.... I don't see 850 in there anywhere.

Amazing how this is just a week or so after the Cingular/AT&T joint venture and roaming agreement.

No matter what, it looks like the GSM players are putting forth a solid effort. All of these agreements are good for the user... especially if it means taking away customers from CDMA.

-Mc

p.s. did you check on that poly midi file for a ringtone? ;)

[Guest aiwapro]

Man, talking about timing.

Well, I don't think T-Mobile is getting into the 850 MHz band.

[Guest McHale]

I called AT&T tech for grins. They said they may support 850 by offering phones with it (as T-Mobile does as well) but they said at this point, they don't see putting up 850 anytime soon. It's not out of the question, it's just not necessary for the time being. So as of now, it's only Cingular putting up 850. In fact, it's highly regionalized. Only a very small market in the midwest (Chicago to Ohio) is 850.

DAMN YOU CINGULAR!!!! I WANT MY SMARTPHONE!!!!! Since I'm on a nationwide plan, I don't pay roaming, so going with 1900 won't bother *ME* too much but the billing department is going to have a FIT!

;)

Well, all I'm waiting for now is the new XScale phones with built-in camera. 850 may go the way of the Beta tape...

-Mc

[Guest aiwapro]

Yeah, I thought that Cingular was the only company going 850, but when you said AT&T was going 850 too, I just agreed because I didn't really have any facts. Cingular is going to dig themselves in a hole I think. They should just spend the extra money now and go 1900 everywhere, instead of loosing money later. Cingular only added a net of 189,000 customers in the first quarter of this year. This is their first gain in a while, as their two previous quarters were net losses.

[Guest Anonymous]

well, it will certainly be interesting to see how things pan out. I don't think anyone here in the market will really notice anything as every phone sold is going to have dual-band GSM on it at least. As for a world phone in this market, Cingular is currently selling the SonyEricson T306 which is dual USA band plus 1800. The v600 is slated for fourth quarter. So, I'm not really sure who will be effected as there is plenty of 1900 coverage here so there *IS* GSM... just not the free kind.

Did you happen to see the Panasonic camera phone that AT&T is selling. It's a tri-band and looks fairly decent. Kinda costly though.

Who knows, maybe after they have stopped selling TDMA and profits are up (fingers crossed), they will go 1900 everywhere and this 850 stuff will be a bad dream.

Yah, I didn't think so either. ;)

Either way, I think there's 1900 everywhere there's 850 (so far) so the smartphone will work.

-Mc

-Mc

[Guest aiwapro]

Yeah, I saw that Panasonic. It has been out forever though; It's old now for those who import like I do.

Hey, before you make your final decision on your next phone, I'm taking orders on the new Nokia 6800. I am taking pre-orders for the US version right now, and that is what's on my website. The US version is GSM 850/1900MHz, so that may be something you're interested in, if you just slight worried about the 850 band.

For those of you across the seas from the U.S., I will be getting the

dual-band version soon for you too.

[Guest superkingdave]

not much of a looker that nokia is it? im sure i have seen that a while ago

[Guest McHale]

nah... thanks for the offer. I have decided to wait for the first Smartphone with built-in camera. Probably will be the Mitac, as it is slated to be released next month in asia. Any news on that one? I'm anxious as hell.

Also, I'm no longer concerned about 850 for myself. I have a nationwide plan and I don't pay for roaming no matter who's network I'm using. There's 1900 every place there's 850 here in IL. I want 900/1800/1900 on my phone as a minumum. If it has 850, well, that's a nice little bonus. I may never leave the country again, but you never know...

-Mc