PocketTV or PocketDivx ???

[Guest ClintEastman]

Unfortunately gregbarton, who created this poll thread, does not allow you to select "both" ! (only neither)

That's why i didn't vote!!!

(Still working on new settings!!) ;)

[Guest ceb]

Honnestly, among the people who voted for PocketDivX, how many have actually tried the latest beta of PocketTV ?  

If you have not tried both, I would consider it quite unfair to vote here.  

BTW we have tried the latest beta of PocketDivX, which works ok (although not very stable, but that's probably nothing to do with the UI).  

... seems to me that the PocketTV team have some problems with pocketMVP, or am i wrong?

Anyway i've read some post of this team trying to defend their stuff, and still none of malloc who did the divx port

[flame: ON] ;)

BTW: i voted for none of them since i didn't try latest version of both pocketDivx and pocketTV

[Guest spacemonkey]

At the end of the day, getting defensive about your product in this situation is a fairly natural reaction, unfortunately it doesn't make a hill of beans difference. The survey is asking for peoples opinions right now, Pocket TV team can't tell people their opinions are wrong, or that they shouldn't be allowed to vote in the way they have.

Pocket TV team, if your unhappy with the perception of your program, work hard to improve it/improve peoples view of it. To help drive use of your program get some content that everyone wants to see up, cos then they'll have a reason to get the latest version.

Also, it's a question of technology, MPEG1 is old technology and will never be able to beat the newer superior MPEG4 technology, except for the fact that MPEG4 demands a lot more power from the phone (hence lower frame rates), once more powerful phones appear that can run MPEG4 at full speed (at least 24/25 frames per second) then there will be no question about which provides the best viewing performance.

[Guest jim80b]

well said spacemonkey.

but i believe the spv can handle 24 fps....

heres the vcf i use in vdub. its not full screen but i get 24fps.

can someone try it out and confirm.

i use divx 5.0.3 pro so not sure about the non-pro

J

divx spv.zip

[Guest ClintEastman]

can someone try it out and confirm.

Don't expect feedback!!!!

I posted a 24fps Matrix Trailer a while back (same size/higher bitrate then my main one!!) asking for feedback on it (as i was usein it to test new settings) and ONE person commented on it!!! Thats why there is no new settings yet!! :cry:

My Matrix Experiment (24fps)

Animatrix SPV 1 Test for My Dub Settings v3 (this is Very Nice! it might need to be paused for a second or 3 at the VERY start)

PS need more web space!!! Any help?

[Guest spacemonkey]

Don't expect feedback!!!!

You're right, people are slack ;)

Feedback:

Matrix Experiment, it is very impressive and almost makes me want to watch movies on my phone. However, I still got a couple of moments where it went jerky, and also there are a lot of compression artifacts (blockiness in the picture) Again as I've said before, until we have more powerful phones we'll probably not be able to do much more here...

Ani Matrix (V3 settings?) this looks really nice and runs good, one thing to note though is that animated stuff like this does compress a lot easier than normal movies, so it's not necessarily the best test clip. It still goes a bit jerky occasionally as well.

As to testing the vcf... sorry, don't have time to go that far, build some example clips using your settings and I'll give my opinion on them :)

[Guest ClintEastman]

Thanks spacemonkey your a gent!!!

PS. I do all my final testing with the matrix trailer (as im sure you guessed ;) ) any way the ratio is wack on Animatrix (but it is running at 160Kbps!!!) :)

[Guest The PocketTV Team]

At the end of the day, getting defensive about your product in this situation is a fairly natural reaction, unfortunately it doesn't make a hill of beans difference.  The survey is asking for peoples opinions right now, Pocket TV team can't tell people their opinions are wrong, or that they shouldn't be allowed to vote in the way they have.  

Pocket TV team, if your unhappy with the perception of your program, work hard to improve it/improve peoples view of it.  To help drive use of your program get some content that everyone wants to see up, cos then they'll have a reason to get the latest version.

Also, it's a question of technology, MPEG1 is old technology and will never be able to beat the newer superior MPEG4 technology, except for the fact that MPEG4 demands a lot more power from the phone (hence lower frame rates), once more powerful phones appear that can run MPEG4 at full speed (at least 24/25 frames per second) then there will be no question about which provides the best viewing performance.

We are used to the fact that in the "hacker" type demographics, DivX is popular, but in the general population, it is much less popular because it is a complicated format to deal with (many variants etc).

So the result of this poll is absolutely not a surprise, given that the people who replied it are more in "hacker" type than in the average non-computer-expert population.

We know PocketDivX, we know that it is not stable, we know that it often crashes or looses sync when you seek, etc...

We also know the shortcomings of the MPEG-1 format that PocketTV uses.

Clearly MPEG-1 will never be better than MPEG-4 in terms of compression efficiency, but it is better in terms of complexity.

What you say is partially correct. The difference in complexity will not be as important when faster processors appear, but in the world of Pocket PC, people said the same, and what we saw is that the new generation of Pocket PC was much slower than the original one, mostly because manufacturers wanted to make much cheaper devices (i.e. lower processor speed).

The stability and usability of an application is also very important, much more than the format used in the files, and storage space and bitrate are getting cheaper and cheaper, which makes difference in compression efficiency less important.

And you certainely know that MPEG-4 (as originally defined) is now an old technology, that is less efficient than H.264, the state of the art in video compression.

So you never use old technology ? I'll give you a few exemples of old technologies that are very, very inefficient:

- Internal combustion engine (the engine in your car)

- Regular light bulb

- CDROM & Audio CDs

- JPEG images

I could list hundreds more (e.g. disposable cameras / film, copper-wires, AM/FM radio...)

Naturally, you don't use any, correct ? You use only the newer techology that is more efficient ?

This discussion has filled-up kilometers of threads in the Pocket PC forums on a site called www.brighthand.com .

The conclusion was that sometimes an old technology works well, and many people use it, even if not optimum. That's probably why half a million people use PocketTV on Pocket PC devices.

It's not a matter of "PocketTV or PocketDivX, what is the best". Both are not incompatible, many people like both and use both, and many people just prefer to use the old technology for various reasons (one of them is a more stable player).

This suject has been beaten to death on brighthand, so if you want to learn something, read the threads in questions, some very interesting posting have been made by a guy called Bandung.

[Guest midnight]

like he said, its natural to defend your product :wink:

[Guest The PocketTV Team]

We are not defending anything, we are just trying to set the record clear.

That's all. Obviously, given what you write and what you think, none of you have read the very enlighting debate that took place on brighthand.

In many cases, old technology work better, or are cheaper, than new one, or it has some other advantages that makes it useful.

For example, there is no patent royalties tied to the use of MPEG-1 (both the implementation and the use of coded data), and that is an important point to remember. That is not true with some of the newer technologies, including MPEG-4, DivX, MP3 etc.

We don't need to defend our product, but we need to set the record clear when incorrect statements are made, and it's often the case when people make blanket statements (e.g. PocketDivX can play 24 fps oh yes ? try it on this file).

If we say something incorrect, I'm sure you will want to set the record straight, too.

[Guest ClintEastman]

We don't need to defend our product, but we need to set the record clear when incorrect statements are made, and it's often the case when people make blanket statements (e.g. PocketDivX can play 24 fps).

If we say something incorrect, I'm sure you will want to set the record straight, too.

Your correct... PocketMPV can't run at a steady 24fps (or even realy hit it, not on an SPV).

I have pointed this out many times myself (just like my mpg matrix trailer only runs at about 20fps), all i am saying is that they are encoded at 24fps (both). That's why it is called My Matrix Experiment.

I have always said i like them both!!

PS Animatrix runs at a very nice 12fps/160Kbps... Works well for animation i think.

[Guest The PocketTV Team]

To help drive use of your program get some content that everyone wants to see up, cos then they'll have a reason to get the latest version.

We are not in the business of distributing content. Making MPEG file is very easy, using free encoders like TMPGEnc. Rather than distributing content, we prefer to tell people how they can convert their own content into MPEG files with parameters suitable for being viewed of a Smartphone (or course you can use PocketDivX to play them, too, if you prefer).

Of by the way, have any of you PocketDivX aficionados tried to use the Seek command (mapped on buttons 1 and 3) ? Each time I use them, PocketDivX looses the A/V sync and never recovers it... Am I the only one with this problem ? (I used the following test file: mikes_new_car_sps.mpg )

[Guest midnight]

but, you are defending your product, you cannot deny it, many more people prefer using divx, thats the whole point of the poll, you cannot change that fact. I myself prefer divx to mpeg1/2, and actually, if windows media player worked as it should then that would actually be the player of choice, but unfortunately it doesnt (no full screen mode is the main problem)

also, a couple of people have stated that they have divx running at 24fps, are you calling these people liars?

as for your old v new technology statements, thats one strange comment, yes, in some cases the technology hasnt changed much, but the point is that mpeg4 is better than mpeg1/2, you cant argue any different (lightbulbs????), thats like saying a 1gig processor is better than a 2gig processor, or that a tnt2 is better than a geforce4. Spacemonkley is correct, 200mhz and upwards processors are coming, that will make a difference, if people prefer divx now, they'll definitely prefer it when they can play it even smoother when the new phones are made available.

Actually, i dont know why i'm bothering arguing, i know which i'm going to use and you cannot change my mind ;)

[Guest ClintEastman]

also, a couple of people have stated that they have divx running at 24fps, are you calling these people liars?

I don't think it can, not at a decent Bitrate (better than blocky vision). You can play files encoded at 24fps but it drops frames (i thought i had just said that it can't do 24fps, maybe im invisible again today ;) )

[Guest midnight]

i was writing as you posted so didnt see your post obviously, chill man

[Guest spacemonkey]

Pocket TV team is probably also correct that the majority of people here in this thread are more technical "hackers" (as an aside, the metro reckons that "hackers" and terrorists are the same thing, who else in this thread reports to Osama Bin Laden?) and that IS part of the reason they have a preference for divx.

So, given that you KNOW that this thread is mainly such people, why are you argueing so hard, when you KNOW that they will probably prefer divx. Why not go sell to the consumer masses?

Also, I had a check of the forum that you linked to... On a quick browse, (and search) I couldn't actually find any threads discussing the pros and cons of divx vs MPEG 1/2, if you could provide links to specific threads that might help my education. The interesting threads I did find seemed to be PocketMVP threads in which a user called PocketTV seemed to have a lot to say in...

[Guest ClintEastman]

i was writing as you posted so didnt see your post obviously, chill man

;) :) :D

Thought i was going to have another day of people skipping all my posts...

Maybe we can kiss and make-up? ;)

[Guest The PocketTV Team]

> many more people prefer using divx, thats the whole point of the poll, you cannot change that fact.

I deny the fact that the poll is representative of the demographics, of, say, Smartphone users.

To begin with, you need to be a registered member of MoDaCo Forums to vote, so at best it represent the demographics of modaco members (that's not that same at all), and the sample is so small (50 people ?). So the meaning of this poll is doubful, and I doubt that you can extend it to the entire population of the world.

> I myself prefer divx to mpeg1/2, and actually, if windows media player worked as it should then that would actually be the player of choice, but unfortunately it doesnt (no full screen mode is the main problem)

I think it would be very slow in fullscreen on a Smartphone...

> also, a couple of people have stated that they have divx running at 24fps, are you calling these people liars?

Absolutely. This is a blanket statement. You can get 24fps with any video player, even a very slow one, provided that you select the right parameter of the file you play.

If you say that PocketDivX can play any video file at 24 fps, you ARE a liar (I can give you many files that PocketDivX cannot play at 24 fps, and also many the PocketTV will play at a faster fps). If you say: PocketDivX can play this particular file () at 24 fps, then this is OK.

> as for your old v new technology statements, thats one strange comment, yes, in some cases the technology hasnt changed much.

In all the cases I cite, the technology *has* improved significantly, and has gotten 5 to 10 times more efficient, but STILL you use the old technology, not the new one.

> but the point is that mpeg4 is better than mpeg1/2, you cant argue any different (lightbulbs????)

Lightbulbs with tungsten filaments are 5 times less efficient than newer ligh sources like LED, in terms of light power vs power use, yet many people still use them , even in flash light where LED versions are now available.

> thats like saying a 1gig processor is better than a 2gig processor, or that a tnt2 is better than a geforce4. Spacemonkley is correct, 200mhz and upwards processors are coming, that will make a difference, if people prefer divx now, they'll definitely prefer it when they can play it even smoother when the new phones are made available.

Or they will prefer using Real, because it will work better and provide content...

All this discussion has been going on for years, in the Pocket PC world, and we were told that most people will prefer to use DivX. In fact, it has not been the case, mostly because people are rapidely disapointed by some of the shortcoming in the PocketDivX implementation.

This has nothing to do with the format (DivX), but rather with the implementation of it (player locks up frequently, looses a/v sync, crashes, hangs, etc). Some people are not ready to endure that just because it's a more modern technology.

> Actually, i dont know why i'm bothering arguing, i know which i'm going to use and you cannot change my mind ;)

Of course we are not trying to change your mind. We are just making sure that people are well informed and that no-one make incorrect statements.

[Guest spacemonkey]

> many more people prefer using divx, thats the whole point of the poll, you cannot change that fact.

I deny the fact that the poll is representative of the demographics, of, say, Smartphone users.

To begin with, you need to be a registered member of MoDaCo Forums to vote, so at best it represent the demographics of modaco members (that's not that same at all), and the sample is so small (50 people ?). So the meaning of this poll is doubful, and I doubt that you can extend it to the entire population of the world.

Oh, my mistake, I had been mislead and was under the (incorrect) impression that the poll was in fact UK wide census data and not a little poll on modaco... thanks for the clarification.

[Guest midnight]

i aint arguing anymore, pointless, in every thread i have stated something you have argued against it, in fact, its very rare you ever agree with anyone, yes, you are always correct and everyone else is always wrong (like the time i stated about the backlight in the registry that you argued i was wrong and then oh, look, pockettv changes the registry for the backlight settings)

[Guest The PocketTV Team]

Also, I had a check of the forum that you linked to...  On a quick browse, (and search) I couldn't actually find any threads discussing the pros and cons of divx vs MPEG 1/2, if you could provide links to specific threads that might help my education.  The interesting threads I did find seemed to be PocketMVP threads in which a user called PocketTV seemed to have a lot to say in...

You did not search well. I found at least those two...

http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthrea...&threadid=40757

http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthrea...&threadid=61576

there are many more, just dig!

[Guest ClintEastman]

Now now girls......

Put your handbags down and play nice....

We already know Tristan is set in his ways!

To a point we are all right.

Now lets go outside and play. ;)

[Guest The PocketTV Team]

i aint arguing anymore, pointless, in every thread i have stated something you have argued against it, in fact, its very rare you ever agree with anyone, yes, you are always correct and everyone else is always wrong (like the time i stated about the backlight in the registry that you argued i was wrong and then oh, look, pockettv changes the registry for the backlight settings)

Just download a one-year old version of PocketTV for Pocket PC, and you'll see that it also controls the backlight correctly.

The question was different, and it is still not resolved on Smartphone. How do you programatically turn the backlight ON when it is OFF.

I'm not always right, but maybe having worked with video technology for about 15 years helps understanding this field a bit better, and having done Pocket PC software for 5 years, too.

[Guest midnight]

shut up already, please

[Guest spacemonkey]

Well, I've checked a few more threads on brighthand, I'd like to say it was an exciting and informative experience, but the thing you really notice is that most of the relevant threads over there look EXACTLY like this one.

I don't think I'm quite bored enough to continue in this thread... catcha all later