Suggested GPRS mass cancellation

[Guest Gorskar]

Everything you say is true MattKirby, but the only way we are going to see cheaper GPRS is if Orange understand that we are not prepared to pay their current prices.

As with everything there are simple market forces - the cheaper something is the more it will be used. For Orange the tricky question is to price GPRS at a rate which will get lots of usage, but high enough so that they make lots of profit.

I don't think they have that balance right yet, and this cancellation will be one way in which we can tell them so.

(And yes I know the other netwoks charge just as much if not more, but most of us have Orange as a network, so that is who we will complain to)

[Guest]

Do you really think anybody here is that nieve.  

Of course we all knew that it was a promotional offer  

Of course we all knew that it was a loss leader  

Of course we all knew about the t & c's (go back back to the posts made 6-9mths ago).

I don’t think that anyone here is naïve, far from it. I just find it surprising that everyone is surprised that Orange are now going to charge us market rate for data.

*The point is Orange misrepresented their position by making us believe GPRS was a vialable and cost effective proposition.

How did they do that? Their standard GPRS tariffs have always been widely publicised, when signing for the £6 deal you knew how good a deal it was compared to their published tariff. You knew that the £6 deal would end and that you would be put onto a standard tariff.

*However have a look at some of the posts in this thread. If you used only the most basic functionality of the SPV you would need to take out a mortgage to pay the charges.

Using the basic functionality of the SPV uses GPRS?

I don’t think so. Yes, it’s part of the whole concept but it isn’t essential for basic functions (and by basic functions I do not mean using it as a modem for your PC, it is a mobile phone).

Lets have a look at what you can do with the phone out-of-the box (ie, without unlocking, just for clarity and simplicity), that doesn’t need GPRS:

Phone calls (remember them?), SMS, MMS, Pocket Outlook, Picture Manager, Windows Media (yes, it can stream / download content, but that’s optional, not essential), and Orange backup (yes, does use GPRS but through a different gateway and is therefore not charged for).

Things that do use GPRS out-of-the-box:

Pocket IE, Messenger, Windows Media (if you must have streaming content).

The bulk of the SPV functions perfectly well without GPRS (and how much data are people thinking of using anyway?).

*This would not be a problem if Orange had stated at the beginning what the charges would be like.

They did. Look at their published GPRS tariffs.

*Instead they stated and I quote 'at the end of the promotional period you will be moved to a plan of equal or better value'.  

Now Im no lawyer but I believe that in contracts it does not matter what the the t&c's say if you were encouraged to believe that it meant something else.

That’s up for debate, but legally ‘a plan of equal or better value' is a subjective statement. What you (or anyone else) may interpret from that statement may well be different from what Orange meant by that (admittedly vague) statement. So, with that phrase being a matter of debate, a lawyer would then look to the T&Cs for definitions and clarifications, and any legal case would be settled on the part of the contract that is clearly defined.

Also, nobody knows at the moment what plan Orange will move us onto. When they move us, then throw that quote back at them, and see what they say. Probably much more effective than sulking and saying “If I can’t have unlimited GPRS for a fixed price then I don’t want to play anymore”.

[EDIT]

I have just noticed Bazz's post, I have to admit that I took Lucky's quote as being accurate. Orange acutally say http://shop.orange.co.uk/spv_pack_popup.html>"equal or lower priced GPRS bundle with a megabyte cap". Thier current GPRS range has lower priced bundles, and are capped. Just as they said.

[/EDIT]

I dont have the financial resources to take on Orange in a civil action but i can voice my displeasure and i think some people here agree.

No one is stopping you voicing your displeasure, I personally don’t think that it will make Orange change their position on GPRS pricing.

Yes this is what everyone else charges  

yes we dont have to use the service  

yes we were aware that it was a promo.

So what’s the problem?

This doesnt mean we have to like it and it doesnt mean we should tell Orange we dont like it.

By all means tell them. I doubt that it will make any difference.

[Guest]

Everything you say is true MattKirby, but the only way we are going to see cheaper GPRS is if Orange understand that we are not prepared to pay their current prices.

As with everything there are simple market forces - the cheaper something is the more it will be used. For Orange the tricky question is to price GPRS at a rate which will get lots of usage, but high enough so that they make lots of profit.  

I don't think they have that balance right yet, and this cancellation will be one way in which we can tell them so.

(And yes I know the other netwoks charge just as much if not more, but most of us have Orange as a network, so that is who we will complain to)

I agree, Orange do have to find the right balance between cost and usage. The only way that Orange (and any other networks) will drop the price of GPRS is if not enough people use GPRS, you are right it is simple market forces.

But I disagree with the supposed effectiveness of a mass GPRS cancellation. As a percentage of GPRS users readers of this board are a small minority, don’t forget that many other phones support GPRS. And users of those other phones haven’t had the luxury of the £6 deal. So the market as a whole will either use GPRS or won’t. Orange have to find the right price for the market as a whole, and some SPV users cancelling won’t affect the whole market.

Orange in the future may well drop the price of GPRS (as they already have done in the past year), but if they do it will be a response to either the whole market or the competition, not as a response to what we do.

[Guest superkingdave]

hey guys it doesnt matter whether orange said this or implied that( although i think orange should be commended for the whole spv package that has been a revolution for me) the mass cancelation is in the hope that we might get them to continue this incredibaly generous thing we all have at the moment or something similar. i dont agree with these people who say orange offered us something of equal or better value i think orange have been very good.. but i have no problem with them taking this view if it helps to get orange to continue this promotion. :)

[Guest]

i think orange have been very good.. but i have no problem with them taking this view if it helps to get orange to continue this promotion. :)

I think that Orange have been more than fair, but I doubt very much that they will continue this promotion indefinitely. They planned to offer it for a short time to get us hooked, and then clobber us with market rate.

The £6 deal is dead, long live the £6 deal! :wink:

[Guest lucky]

Im at a slight disadvantage here, Im at work so I cant make these posts as clear and accurate as i d like to.

I dont want to create a polarised argument over good and evil or who said what(i know i know I said and i quote but i was trying to illustrate a point) and the relative merits of the capitalist system.

I started this thread as a pretty simple idea.

I like the SPV.

I like the GPRS functionality.

I think Orange is quite a competitive service provider.

I felt when I signed up to the promo pack that because of Oranges marketing (which I have kept original copies of) that their pricing structure was going to be a little better value for money.

I thought that other modaco users were lead the same way.

I thought that as a group we could take some positive action and no i didnt mean lets sledge Orange.

It may not change the world but it may make Orange look at the balance between profit and value for money.

I resent that people who offer a voice of dissent are described as sulky and whingers. Im happy to listen to the opinions of others on their merit alone.

If nobody ever dissented nothing would ever change.

[Guest lucky]

Sorry double post. damn firewalls messing everything up 8)

[Guest Rob.P]

If we were the only GPRS users because of our phones then yes mass cancellation would be a good way of forcing Orange to take note, but we are not. There are other phones users out there that use GPRS to make a stand without inviting them I think makes SPV users look like snobs and borderline egotistical.

You wanna make a stand invite all who use GPRS, no matter what phone they have. (blimey re-reading that makes it sound like things could start getting phone-ist :) ).

[Guest lucky]

I just dont get it!

Why are so many many people happy to stay silent and accept such high prices.

I agree that Orange is unlikely to go oh ok a bunch of people dont like our prices so lets give it to them for free.

But what harm does it do to give Orange a message that we think there pricing could be better value for money.

Companies know that for every person who complains there is a large number who agree but dont speak up.

If I look at the poll the votes show that more people are voting to protest so maybe its a vocal few.

But come guys like I said at the beginning if you must keep using GPRS then this is not for you but if you agree then lets present a united view to Orange.

[Guest]

I dont want to create a polarised argument over good and evil or who said what(i know i know I said and i quote but i was trying to illustrate a point)  and the relative merits of the capitalist system.

I also don’t want to polarise this into good and evil, and you are right in suggesting that this isn’t a political surge against the capitalist system.

I acknowledge that I am in a minority on this idea, the poll speaks for itself. But I felt that since I voted, I should also post.

I agree with Lucky, I also like the SPV, the GPRS functionality and think that Orange is competitive.

And maybe GPRS is a little too high priced for me to afford. But, I want to use it, and I have the choice of using and paying, or not using. As I said in my first post, it was a special offer, and now it’s ended. Unfortunate but not unfair. I personally knew when I signed up (as I am sure everyone else did) that the £6 deal would end, and when that happened I would be moved to either a PAYG system, or a fixed MB bundle.

I am just trying to make the point of the 16% that voted “No - I'm not happy with the GPRS prices, but I can't live without it”. GPRS aint cheap, but it is a much better deal than CSD.

I personally am not going to cancel GPRS in the hope that Orange drop their prices. Others are obviously free to, but I will continue to use GPRS and pay for the privilege.

Take it or leave it.

[Guest drblow]

but I will continue to use GPRS and pay for the privilege.

Take it or leave it.

:) :(

Really!?! If you buy some stuff from tesco, do you feel that you were "privileged" somehow!?! :D

[Guest martin]

It's dissapointing to see the end of a promotion but unfortunately they are never usually sustainable in any business. Like many other SPV users, I feel that the new GPRS prices are high but you can't just single out Orange, these prices are similair across the mobile industry. The fact is that GPRS prices will fall over time when the competition, technology and finance dictates.

Do you think this topic would exist if there had never been a promotion ?

Personally, I don't pay anything for my phone :wink: and I am on the net 24/7 with GPRS :) so its probably not a good idea for me to cancel but I wish everyone else good luck.

[Guest adam]

There would be no topic, yet hardly any of us would have used GPRS. Whats wrong with testing Orange to see if they can give us a better deal?

[Guest MrCai]

Just been on the phone to O to change my service plan, and in doing so asked about the 'GPRS pack'. He told me it was ending on the 22nd Of December. He then said, oh hang on, do you mean SPV pack, are you currently paying for it? I said yes, he said, it is on going, you can cancel it at anytime, do you want to cancel it... I laughed and said NO!

So is there another GPRS pack, or did he get confused with the WAP pack, whats finishing on the 22/12?

Anyway I voted 'Just Tell Me When', but if its on going then I am keeping it I love my GPRS, although a speed boost wouldnt go a miss, maybe if you all stopped using it... :)

Cai

[Guest]

:) :(

Really!?! If you buy some stuff from tesco, do you feel that you were "privileged" somehow!?! :D

My point was that GPRS is not an automatic right just because you have an SPV. It's a service, just like any other.

And yes, I do feel privileged to buy stuff in Tesco, I can pay for someone else to kill / harvest my food for me rather than fending for myself! :wink:

[Guest lucky]

I must be honest everytime i ring up orange for anything i ask them again what the deal is with the SPV pack and they have consistently told me it will continue until i cancel it.

Mattkirby, you seem to be choosing to ignore the difference between the price of something being poor value for money and not wanting to pay for it at all. do you just accept tax rises or do you want to know where the money goes first and that you are getting value for money?

alot of people seemed to be saying they were going to cancel gprs. well orange would not know what the hell was going on but if we all did it in unison and told them they would understand.

for all i know it might cost them 2.99gbp to serve a mb in which case they only make 1p. i doubt it but if they never know why we cancelled they wont do anything about it.

[Guest Matt Kirby]

Mattkirby, you seem to be choosing to ignore the difference between the price of something being poor value for money and not wanting to pay for it at all. do you just accept tax rises or do you want to know where the money goes first and that you are getting value for money?

I do know the difference between “poor value for money” and “not wanting to pay for it at all”, and I am not choosing to ignore that difference. The £6 deal was fantastic, and compared to this any capped package will seem inferior. But if you are talking about value for money when compared to the market as a whole then Orange as a network is comparable if not better than the competition.

And as for tax rises, obviously I want to know where my money goes – because I have to pay them (recent NI contribution increase anyone?). I don’t have to use GPRS, and I think that it is bizarre to stop using GPRS in protest for Orange stopping a promotion that they told us was going to end. When I bought the SPV I knew what the costs were likely to be when the promotion finished – simple judgement call.

Furthermore, Orange expect some people to stop using GPRS when the deal ends, so phoning them up and cancelling in protest (in my opinion) is pointless, but go ahead, it might just work.

Maybe I have a different view point because I used GPRS on a previous phone before buying the SPV, and Orange’s current bundles are better value than previously.

I am going to bow out of this thread now, before it becomes a two person thread (none of this is intended to be personal :) ). Before I go, I will just try and clarify my opinions on this issue:

1) I don’t think that Orange have acted unfairly in their handling of the GPRS promotion, and I think that they are following the market as far as pricing goes.

2) I support peoples freedom to protest; but I personally don’t think that a mass cancellation will change Orange’s pricing stance.

3) GPRS is great, and I will use it. Some people think it’s too expensive and they won’t. The market will decide the price.

4) I do want GPRS to be cheaper, but then I want all aspects of mobile phone use to be cheaper (as do OFTEL; they are repeatedly telling the networks to drop prices (http://www.oftel.gov.uk/press/releases/2003/pr26_03.htm>most recently)).

I don’t want to cause any hard feeling, I just wanted to add support for the other (admittedly small) side of the debate.

Keep having fun! :wink:

[Guest Gorskar]

Just to be perfectly clear. This protest is NOT in protest of the end of the SPV GPRS deal. We knew it was going to end, and we take that on the chin.

It is in protest of their general GPRS prices.

And you are right in saying that we are only a fairly small proportion of GPRS phone owners, but I think the surveys we have taken show that SPV owners are liable to consume a much larger amount of data than other GPRS phone owners. After all what have they got? WAP? don't make me laugh.

I guess the problem for orange is that they only charge one rate no matter how the data is used. To make any money off WAP they need fairly high charges as the amount of data used is tiny. On the other hand, when you start using PIE the data use goes up massively, not to mention email (with attachments) and MSN messenger. It is simply not cost effective for an average SPV user to expect to pay the same data rate as WAP.

Will any of this get heard by orange? Unlikely I guess, but hey you've got to try. If the protest has no effect then I'll probably just stick to PAYG rate, but never use it. I have a computer with broadband after all. Internet on the move is all very well, but I am only a student, so am not exactly rolling in it.

[Guest HungrySPV]

Hey All,

Very interesting from both sides. I won't get involved in the main debate, but I will respond to those who say it won't make a difference. Because I disagree and feel that its worth expanding upon.

Okay personally I think Orange will listen to its customers, but just say it doesn't it should not matter because of 3 reasons.

1) T-Mobile, Virgin, O2 and other mobile operators are watching what goes on with the first Smartphone users very very closely. The mobile phone market in the UK is flooded, and no one will waste an opportunity to win over a competitors customers.

2) I am sure the press are watching this forum, and upset customers (even a 100) are news, and an organised boycott by a community group is more news. All it takes is someone like Gears (or any of the great SPV sites) to mention this on their site and suddenly you may have a lot more people involved. The loss of a few hundred GPRS contracts is not a big loss for a company, but the publicity surrounding it is a serious issue for any company.

3) Other Businesses are watching. All it needs is a company like Planus to see that GPRS can be cheaper and they offer an alternative service. Look what they have done with SMS. If the big operator don't notice the problem the smaller faster ones will notice the opportunity !

So basically just because we don't think Orange is listening (which hasn't been confirmed yet) doesn't mean lots of other people aren't. Don't forget Customer is King.

Hungry

[Guest strathclydezero]

Regardless of the vocal few who seem not to care about paying £3 a meg after £6 unlimited, the poll suggests a silent majority who are waiting for the time to be right.

[Guest Big Ron - No Longer a Mem]

The ONE area where orange is singularly touchy is "churn rate". For those unfamiliar with the term, "churn" is where a customer leaves one network to join another. Orange has the lowest in the industry, and is exaggeratedly proud of the fact. (Could it be mainly down to the "OVP" tariffs, where they price match?) A mass "we ain't buying any more GPRS from you" walkout would have a LOT less success than a threatened mass switch to other networks, because it would impact strongly on something Orange quite clearly DOES care about. There aren't THAT many SPV customers - but a mass exodus all at the same moment would be enough to damage their churn statistics for a month, maybe a quarter. And that WOULD worry them - they've been "number one" for years, and plaster their offices with posters to that effect. (It's supposed to inspire the workers)

[Guest Monolithix [MVP]]

Ron: Sometimes i could well believe you ARE Scott Adams.

[Guest Big Ron - No Longer a Mem]

I think we probably share the same experience-born cynicism. His comic strips lead people to email him with their real-life experiences (which he quotes in some of his books) and as he freely admits - they're even more absurd and surreal than Dilbert. I used to work for AOL - they launched a completely new browser almost immediately. Frustrated tech support types - unable to answer increasing customer queries about the new software - heaved a sigh of relief when we heard that we were getting some more training. Problem was... the training was about "How not to be more any helpful than you absolutely need to be" - NOT about the new browser at all. Seems that AOL make fake calls to other ISP's tech support, and then try to get the TSR's to bad-mouth AOL (not difficult!) They record the call, make an official complaint and threaten to sue. THEN it dawned on them that "this is a game that any number can play", and that it might rebound on them. So TSRs were instructed to express NO OPINIONS OF ANY TYPE ON ANY SUBJECT. "Just read what's on screen - that way nobody can sue us." AOL routinely p*ssed on its workers, then handed out boxes of chocolates - and assumed that as a result everything was OK.

I worked for another company - which shall remain nameless - where the job was essentially maintaining a large database as a subcontractor for clients. One manager managed to dump 25% of the records irretrievably to hard copy. I worked out that by scanning the deleted records, we could set up a "parallel" system for an outlay of under £50k. This was turned down as an unacceptable idea - essentially because an expenditure of that size would require the OK of head ofice's IT department, THEY had a backlog of six months plus, and besides, it would draw attention to the screw-up. So, the additional work caused by constant reference to hard copy cost an estimated £250k a year, and to make up for the losses... they laid off staff! (People on the ground floor getting laid off is "an acceptable solution" - a manager getting fired because of total incompetence however...? No way!)

Organisations which either don't allow unions, or in which unions are unpopular with the workforce (finance for example) tend to have an inherent insanity all their own, thanks to a lack of checks and balances. Orange dosn't recognise any unions - which may create the illusion that "management are in 100% control", but overlooks the basic problem of management that's JUST competant enough to cover up its own incompetance from the guys at the top, but not really capable of doing the job they're paid for. Unions expose that kind of problem, force the company to deal with it. During my time with Orange, everyone on 156 had their terms and conditions unilaterally changed - 12% more unsocial hours for no additional pay. Everyone also got shown a sheet of paper outlining the old terms and the new ones, and was given almost no time to read it. They WERE however asked to SIGN it, "to show that they'd been informed". In the absence of a union to negotiate such deals, companies need something called a "whole office agreement", in which everyone has to sign to say that they AGREE to the new terms. Is this coincidence... or DID Orange just shaft their whole tech support department? If they did, then you can either look at it as a clever piece of trickery... or a bomb waiting to explode; if it WAS deliberate, then someone fraudulently ordered that employment law should be broken: what looked like "clever" yesterday might look like incredibly shortsighted tomorrow if the truth leaks out. Put it this way. Nobody ever asked ME to sign a "whole workforce agreement", nor any of my colleagues. So what WAS that document? And why wouldn't they let me take away a copy to read?

[Guest Bazz]

The ONE area where orange is singularly touchy is "churn rate". For those unfamiliar with the term, "churn" is where a customer leaves one network to join another. Orange has the lowest in the industry, and is exaggeratedly proud of the fact. (Could it be mainly down to the "OVP" tariffs, where they price match?) A mass "we ain't buying any more GPRS from you" walkout would have a LOT less success than a threatened mass switch to other networks, because it would impact strongly on something Orange quite clearly DOES care about. There aren't THAT many SPV customers - but a mass exodus all at the same moment would be enough to damage their churn statistics for a month, maybe a quarter. And that WOULD worry them - they've been "number one" for years, and plaster their offices with posters to that effect. (It's supposed to inspire the workers)

Yeah but why change to another Network which charges more for GPRS? Just to make a point? Not sure that'll make them reduce their GPRS... or that is should.

It's like that Tesco priviledge argument quoted earlier on in this thread. No, I don't feel particularly priviledged to shop there but I'm not going to stand outside their shop and protest cause they sell beans at the same price (or less) than Sainsburys. It doesn't make sense!

My feelings (as you're probably aware from my other posts) are that GPRS costs are too high for my liking - but not unfairly high on Orange's network. We haven't been mis-lead and talking about a "Civil Action" against Orange is stupid and pointless.

GPRS costs will come down, but probably because more people start to use it - not because less people use it out of protest. GPRS is still fairly new and most mobile users don't have access to it (then again with 3G on the horizon, maybe most users never will: is GPRS going to be doomed by 3G as WAP was with full internet browsing? Anyway that's another topic).

Consumer force is a marvelous thing but ultimately consumers should drive the market - not one company. As I've said before if you're not going to use it, cancel - that'll send them a message. If you are are going to use it, don't cancel. Don't cancel out of some form of protest as I personally don't think it'll do much good.

Additionally there are 81 votes in total in the poll at the mo. Say half of those actually go though with the planned cancel in protest. Do you really think Orange are going to change their pricing plan to satisfy 40 people? This topic is an interesting idea but I, for one, don't think it'll work.

Bazz

[Guest joelj]

Why is Orange's GPRS pricing causing so much annoyance?  

Have you compared it to what the other networks are offering?  

O2 are charging £1 for a meg.