Guest mikeeey Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 you've been watching too many Steve Jobs webcasts :) lol....il try to stay away from watching anything thats apple, unless its comparing why windows phones are better haha. so thats a no for the screen thing then? It's all guess work at the min as whether an upgrade is provided is usually down to the operator or manufacturer (is its contract free) but in general they don't provide an upgrade (at least very few did (any?) when WM5 was released. After all, if they don't provide an upgrade and people want WM6 then you'll have to BUY a new phone! Money in the bank (for them :D ) well hopefully a popular phone like the hermes will be able to be upgraded to WM6. i thot microsoft would have done a better job on their windows media player 11 considering people like me have been making skins now. i thot they would top somerthing off that would beat everyones put together. visualizations, movings bars, anything exciting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ingvarr Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Problem is that there is almost no reason for manufacturers to provide OS upgrades. They get no direct revenue for it. And as for PR action, that too expensive, considering salaries to programmers and license fees, not to mention needed time and work resources. Imho we will not see any improvement unless PDA OS will not switch to standard "soft-selling" model in the future, when you pay for OS, and free to upgrade and choose one version fits you best. This "Bundled with device" system is flawed in this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Problem is that there is almost no reason for manufacturers to provide OS upgrades. They get no direct revenue for it. And as for PR action, that too expensive, considering salaries to programmers and license fees, not to mention needed time and work resources. Imho we will not see any improvement unless PDA OS will not switch to standard "soft-selling" model in the future, when you pay for OS, and free to upgrade and choose one version fits you best. This "Bundled with device" system is flawed in this matter. but it's not just about the manufacturers..in fact I'd suggest that it's more about the network operators for the most part from the majority of customers' POV. For the network operators it's my undrstanding that they subsidise hardware quite a bit - that's one of the reasons to push people towards to 18 month contracts. They are all about the customer experience and often the OS (plus the hardware) supports that. Network operators are able to buy OS licenses at significant discounts - they could afford to offer the upgrade at a price to appropriate existing hardware and that would/could provide a revenue stream: They've already paid for the hardware, the "upgrade fee could be at a point between their purchase and what the market could support and would in fact be extending the lifespan as well as the customer experience. This could be very attractive to business clients too. Having said that they would need to spend something to test OS upgrades against existing hardware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 so thats a no for the screen thing then? I forget where I read it but I did read that some MS person said they had no plans for multi touch screens (this was after jobs announced the iPhone). I'm sure that can be taken with a pinch of salt though and it multi touch is a success we'll see in in WM devices too (when is anyones guess) i thot they would top somerthing off that would beat everyones put together. visualizations, movings bars, anything exciting? I often thougt that it would be cool to have even a few basic visualizations in MP mobile but I suppose they server no real purpose (who stares at their smartphone when listening to music?) and may even run the battery down quicker. The option would be nice I guess...... atb gr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ingvarr Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 (edited) but it's not just about the manufacturers..in fact I'd suggest that it's more about the network operators for the most part from the majority of customers' POV. For the network operators it's my undrstanding that they subsidise hardware quite a bit - that's one of the reasons to push people towards to 18 month contracts. They are all about the customer experience and often the OS (plus the hardware) supports that. Network operators are able to buy OS licenses at significant discounts - they could afford to offer the upgrade at a price to appropriate existing hardware and that would/could provide a revenue stream: They've already paid for the hardware, the "upgrade fee could be at a point between their purchase and what the market could support and would in fact be extending the lifespan as well as the customer experience. This could be very attractive to business clients too. Having said that they would need to spend something to test OS upgrades against existing hardware. For operators it's no different. It's too expensive to provide OS upgrades as PR action (improving customer experience, etc), they see no need for it for now. Also in any case, operator can not develop upgrade itself, it must contract original device manufacturer anyway - operators do not make hardware, and currently mobile OS is very tightly tied to hardware. And, very significantly, operator would not want added hassle of tech supporting failed OS upgrades, beleive me. They better not bother with it at all. There is no "discount for OS licenses" in WM world. Because the only way to get WM license at all, is to be big manufacturer already, and yes, fees for the licensing of new OS version are substantial (instead of, say, essential bug fixes that are part of support). But, anyway, fees just additional factor, adaptation is still a lot more expensive and no way to avoid it for now. So operators prefer just to contract ODMs for new devices (simple & profitable), instead of diving into this complicated "upgrading" mess. Edited February 10, 2007 by Ingvarr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 For operators it's no different. It's too expensive to provide OS upgrades as PR action (improving customer experience, etc), they see no need for it for now. I don't think it's just PR action if new/better functionality is exposed for network operators to exploit more easily. In addition by adopting an upgrade approach alongside the hardware change, they could increase the revenue associated with new OS releases; at present the revenue is likely to come from new clients and the minority that are prepared to pay for a new device (normally big money in the UK) to support the new OS. By offering upgrade only you could in theory extract a new revenue thread from the existing client base as well. Of course this only applies if the upgrdae could be offered at less than the full hardware replacement. Also in any case, operator can not develop upgrade itself, it must contract original device manufacturer anyway - operators do not make hardware, and currently mobile OS is very tightly tied to hardware. I agree that operators don't develop the upgrade but they do customise the base OS to support their networks. In addition I agree that OSs are bound to hardware but are you really saying that WM is designed with a small number of hardware in mind - the wide range of WM devices would suggest otherwise. And, very significantly, operator would not want added hassle of tech supporting failed OS upgrades, beleive me. They better not bother with it at all. Perhaps but this is inevitable as you introduce smartphone devices - remember operators already have to support upgrades to the OS as it is. There is no "discount for OS licenses" in WM world. Because the only way to get WM license at all, is to be big manufacturer already, and yes, fees for the licensing of new OS version are substantial (instead of, say, essential bug fixes that are part of support). I'm not sure I understand your point here, but I find it difficult to accept that volume doesn't generate discounts especially for software - that standard MSFT tactics. But, anyway, fees just additional factor, adaptation is still a lot more expensive and no way to avoid it for now.So operators prefer just to contract ODMs for new devices (simple & profitable), instead of diving into this complicated "upgrading" mess. I agree that replacement is easier but I don't necessarily think it's better - it should/could be cheaper for operators as distinct from the hardware manufacturers, should extend the lifespan of devices, and if we want to get trendy should reduce the environmental impact of disposing of devices every time a new OS is released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 I wonder how Orange UK (and other UK network operators) will deal with the new OS - they spent the past few months shifting people to 18 month contracts. This means that customers can't move to the new OS without paying unless they are in the final 3 months or so of their contract. So at first glance this might slow down the adoption/permeation of WM6 amongst ordinary users... What about corporate users? I would suggest that's even more difficult to switch over unless the migration deal will include new hardware as well. In that instance the migration costs (the real migration costs - retraining, client software upgrades, etc) is far more significant. I haven't done full analysis on this but I wonder what kind of take up WM6 will get in the first 6-12 months since so much of the iprovement is "soft" and behind-the-scenes...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ingvarr Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 (edited) You provided a lot of wishful thinking, but unfortunately it not how it works for now. Otherwise WM phones would be widely upgradeable long ago. I wont go over details how WM devices are made again, but your understanding of the whole process is not completely correct. Upgrading of phones "just for better features in same device" does not pay off, that's a fact. That why we've seen only rare examples of upgrades in the past, and we will see no difference with WM6 (because WM6 have no big paradigm differences from WM5, only added features). But WM6 "adoption" would be not slowed at all. Because people will happily buy a new devices with WM6. Operators want to sell new devices. Manufacturers want to make new devices. Yes, maybe promising updates and keeping the word would affect customer relations and sales on the long run, but its hard to judge exactly on what extent and in what time, and when its you doing serious business and its your millions to spend, you dont take risks without need. And, btw, some companies did good update policy (HP/COMPAQ for exampe). Did it gread good for their device sales? Its definitely not very noticeable (to say it most mildly), and this discouraging other company managements to start messing with updates. Edited February 10, 2007 by Ingvarr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 You provided a lot of wishful thinking, but unfortunately it not how it works for now. Otherwise WM phones would be widely upgradeable long ago. I wont go over details how WM devices are made again, but your understanding of the whole process is not completely correct. Upgrading of phones "just for better features in same device" does not pay off, that's a fact. That why we've seen only rare examples of upgrades in the past, and we will see no difference with WM6 (because WM6 have no big paradigm differences from WM5, only added features). But WM6 "adoption" would be not slowed at all. Because people will happily buy a new devices with WM6. Operators want to sell new devices. Manufacturers want to make new devices. Yes, maybe promising updates and keeping the word would affect customer relations and sales on the long run, but its hard to judge exactly on what extent and in what time, and when its you doing serious business and its your millions to spend, you dont take risks without need. And, btw, some companies did good update policy (HP/COMPAQ for exampe). Did it gread good for their device sales? Its definitely not very noticeable (to say it most mildly), and this discouraging other company managements to start messing with updates. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I agree with much of what you say but some of what you say seems contradictory. For example if the network operators simply want to sell devices they would put far more effort into encouraging client behaviour in that direction. The extended contract periods, admin charges and high hardware costs would suggest something else. The network operators want customers to join and stay on their network, make (lots of) calls and use the other data related services that they offer across their network. they don't care what devices you use so long as you can do that. Agreed hardware manufacturers want you to buy their devices as often as possible but that's there business. I agree that no company can afford to take risks without a mighty powerful business case and a large helping of certainty of success though :) Sorry I said we'd agree to disagree and then went on to continue rambling on. Free to comment if you want but I do understand what you're saying and as I said I agree with much of it. btw as you have suggested my thoughts were more in the line of hopeful possibilties. I think we would both agree that at some point and it's possibly not too far away, we will be able to upgrade out phone devices much as we do PC across OSes.... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dr Who Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Please, for mercys sake, does WM6 have the ability to send a business card via SMS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ingvarr Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Please, for mercys sake, does WM6 have the ability to send a business card via SMS? It can send contact information via SMS if you mean that. Not sure what standard it uses to do so, but its not just a plain text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pisquee Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 AKU 3, which i've put onto my Hermes, has sending of vcards over mms. Sends them as an attatchment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dr Who Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 AKU 3, which i've put onto my Hermes, has sending of vcards over mms. Sends them as an attatchment. Doesn't help when the other person doesn't have MMS setup on their account like many, many of my business colleagues. Send via SMS has been present for how long on Nokia? And PPC is meant to be a business platform? I am fed up of sounding like a dick having to look at my phone and dictate a contact to a recipient who may or may not have a pen and paper handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pisquee Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 True, but at least it is better than nothing. And as it is an mms you can also send it to someone's email, and they can put it into their computer address book which is a nice touch. I do admit that having the SMS standard would be good too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 I've mentioned previously about the possibility of WM6 upgrades for existing hardware. Increasingly this possibility, though faint, does appear to be gaining some ground. There are a few (highly speculative) reports that suggest that some manufacturers (including HTC) might support upgrades, in addition it appears that MSFT are prepared to allow for "free" upgrade liceses for WM6. Lastly it appears that there are at least 2 unofficial upgrade WM6 ROMS in the wild for existing WM5 devices (specifically the Hermes/TyTN). I don't say that it certain that we will be able to upgrdae to WM6 but perhaps there is a slowly growing movement to allowing for mobile os upgrades in order to retain clients and stretch out the lifecycle of devices. I'm happy to supply the links to the various sources if the moderators are happy for me to do so. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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